This generation

[3 Resurrections]

And even St. Gregory, Bishop of Nyssa (AD 336-395) - My signature line:
"Do we romance about three Resurrections? Do we promise the gluttony of the Millennium? Do we declare that the Jewish animal-sacrifices shall be restored? Do we lower men's hopes again to the Jerusalem below, imagining its rebuilding with stones of a more brilliant material? What charge like these can be brought against us, that our company should be reckoned a thing to be avoided?"

What Scripture is this even based on, or just a hunch doctrine? What Scripture was Gregory defending?

Timtofly, according to parousia70's quote above, St. Gregory in the AD 300's stated his opposition to the idea of three resurrections, a Millennium with excesses, as well as the restoration of Jewish sacrifices and support for a rebuilt physical temple in Jerusalem. But even if St. Gregory did not agree with the idea of three resurrections, this quote tells me that the subject of three resurrections was being discussed and debated by the church, along with all these other notable eschatological subjects, even way back then. The Three resurrection events is not a novel idea that I have invented. Three separate bodily resurrection events is the inevitable conclusion when comparing Matthew 24:21 with Matthew 24:29-31.

 

[Timtofly]

The reason I quoted Josephus is because he lived in the first century and the Jews of that day would have viewed the temple in the same way he would. Those living in that time period would have seen the temple as a representation of heaven and earth.

Does not mean they were correct. Human opinion is not just a modern invention.

 

[Timtofly]

So you agree then that heaven and earth have passed away.

For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is fulfilled. (Matthew 5:18)

No. The Millennial Kingdom has not even started yet. The Law is still in place. The Atonement does not mean you can just sin and get away with it. Besides, the Law was just an economy. It was not the means of Atonement. Just because you have a natural tendency to sin, does not mean the OT economy is still enforced.

 

[Timtofly]

It’s a parable because He says it is. It applies to them because He said it did. A parable is just a comparison. So here He’s comparing watching fruit trees to see when they will bloom with watching for the signs. It doesn’t have to be a story.

It was a clever try. I’ll give you that.

No, the parable has a meaning outside of what you claim. You just deny the meaning of the parable. You just see it as a science, statement of fact.

 

[Timtofly]

You’ll have to give me more than that. Try connecting the dots for me.

I agree that Christ didn’t return in 70AD. However, He is on His throne, ruling and reigning. And His kingdom is growing, just as He said it would.

Did it start growing in 70AD or 30AD?

 

[Timtofly]

Josephus records cannibalism among Jews in 70 AD.

You claim that WW2 was worse than 70 AD, but there are no records of cannibalism among Jews during WW2.

So 70 AD was "special" in rebutting your claim.

I think you need to recheck your sources of WW2. Also Jeremiah 19.

 

[JosephZ]

The Law is still in place.

Then it is not finished. Is that what you're saying?

 

[Timtofly]

Timtofly, according to parousia70's quote above, St. Gregory in the AD 300's stated his opposition to the idea of three resurrections, a Millennium with excesses, as well as the restoration of Jewish sacrifices and support for a rebuilt physical temple in Jerusalem. But even if St. Gregory did not agree with the idea of three resurrections, this quote tells me that the subject of three resurrections was being discussed and debated by the church, along with all these other notable eschatological subjects, even way back then. The Three resurrection events is not a novel idea that I have invented. Three separate bodily resurrection events is the inevitable conclusion when comparing Matthew 24:21 with Matthew 24:29-31.

There is not even a hint of a resurrection in the OD. Yet no one quotes Paul in 1 Corinthians 15?

If you think this is a resurrection:

"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

How? Those in Heaven do not need a resurrection. This is like calling every one, "to come inside at supper time".

 

[Timtofly]

Then it is not finished. Is that what you're saying?

The verse does not say the Law is finished. Read it again. There is no "finishing" the Law. There is not even a fulfilment of the Law, as the Law is not a prophecy. The Law is currently not an economic factor, with a temple as the central "bank".

The Law has not passed away.

 

[JosephZ]

Does not mean they were correct. Human opinion is not just a modern invention.

Based on what is found in the Bible and elsewhere, it would be hard to imagine those living in the first century not associating the temple with the heavens and earth.

Thus the veil which screened the holy of holies was also the boundary between earth and heaven. --Josephus

Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises. (Hebrews 8:1-6)

It was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. (Hebrews 9:23-26)

And he knew that the Garden of Eden is the holy of holies, and the dwelling of the Lord, and Mount Sinai the centre of the desert, and Mount Zion -the centre of the navel of the earth: these three were created as holy places facing each other. (Jubilees 8:19)

And He built His sanctuary like the high heavens, Like the earth which He has founded forever. (Psalm 78:69)

this proportion of the measures of the tabernacle proved to be an imitation of the system of the world; for that third part thereof which was within the four pillars, to which the priests were not admitted, is, as it were, a heaven peculiar to God. But the space of the twenty cubits, is, as it were, sea and land, on which men live, and so this part is peculiar to the priests only. (THE ANTIQUITIES OF THE JEWS By Flavius Josephus Bk. 3, chapter 6:4)

He also appointed the breastplate to be placed in the middle of the ephod, to resemble the earth, for that has the very middle place of the world. And the girdle which encompassed the high priest round, signified the ocean, for that goes round about and includes the universe. (THE ANTIQUITIES OF THE JEWS By Flavius Josephus Bk. 3, Chpt 7:7)

It was a Babylonian curtain, embroidered with blue, and fine linen, and scarlet, and purple, and of a contexture that was truly wonderful. Nor was this mixture of colors without its mystical interpretation, but was a kind of image of the universe; for by the scarlet there seemed to be enigmatically signified fire, by the fine flax the earth, by the blue the air, and by the purple the sea; two of them having their colors the foundation of this resemblance; but the fine flax and the purple have their own origin for that foundation, the earth producing the one, and the sea the other. This curtain had also embroidered upon it all that was mystical in the heavens, excepting that of the twelve signs, representing living creatures. (Josephus; Wars of the Jews; Bk. 5. Chapt. 5:4)

 

[jgr]

I think you need to recheck your sources of WW2. Also Jeremiah 19.

If you have contrary evidence, please provide a link to it.

WW2 is not in Jeremiah 19.

 

[Hammster]

No, the parable has a meaning outside of what you claim. You just deny the meaning of the parable. You just see it as a science, statement of fact.

Once again, you draw conclusions from what I’ve said that aren’t based on anything I’ve said. It’s straightforward. Just like they can look at fruit trees and see leaves, you know summer is near. The leaves are a sign. In the same way, when they see the signs He was telling them about, know that destruction is near.

 

[Hammster]

Did it start growing in 70AD or 30AD?

Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
— Daniel 2:35


and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
— Mark 1:15

 

[3 Resurrections]

There is not even a hint of a resurrection in the OD. Yet no one quotes Paul in 1 Corinthians 15?

If you think this is a resurrection:

"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

How? Those in Heaven do not need a resurrection. This is like calling every one, "to come inside at supper time"

It's the "harvest" at the end of the age, when "the reapers are the angels" (Matthew 13:39). The elect being gathered from the four winds of heaven were the saints being resurrected from every point of the compass where they had physically died. By the tenor of your posts, it appears you don't believe that the dead bodies of the saints will stand up again in a changed state made incorruptible, as Paul teaches. But we should reserve a discussion of 1 Corinthians 15 to a different post.

 

[claninja]

It is taken from notes written during the translation of the works of Eusebius by Samuel Lee.

What is your evidence of this?

It seems to be found in part 3 of Samuel Lee’s dissertation.

Samuel Lee 0nTheophania, or Divine Manifestation of our Lord - Preterist Archives

 

[JosephZ]

It seems to be found in part 3 of Samuel Lee’s dissertation.

Samuel Lee 0nTheophania, or Divine Manifestation of our Lord - Preterist Archives

Thanks. Copies of Eusebius' The Theophania including the original Syriac versions are easy to come by. I'm just wanting to find out why sovereigngrace said the quote I posted was fake. The works of Eusebius are used by people studying early Christianity from all schools of thought, not only Preterist, and are a good source of information about the early church.

 

[Timtofly]

Based on what is found in the Bible and elsewhere, it would be hard to imagine those living in the first century not associating the temple with the heavens and earth.

Thus the veil which screened the holy of holies was also the boundary between earth and heaven. --Josephus

Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises. (Hebrews 8:1-6)

It was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. (Hebrews 9:23-26)

And he knew that the Garden of Eden is the holy of holies, and the dwelling of the Lord, and Mount Sinai the centre of the desert, and Mount Zion -the centre of the navel of the earth: these three were created as holy places facing each other. (Jubilees 8:19)

And He built His sanctuary like the high heavens, Like the earth which He has founded forever. (Psalm 78:69)

this proportion of the measures of the tabernacle proved to be an imitation of the system of the world; for that third part thereof which was within the four pillars, to which the priests were not admitted, is, as it were, a heaven peculiar to God. But the space of the twenty cubits, is, as it were, sea and land, on which men live, and so this part is peculiar to the priests only. (THE ANTIQUITIES OF THE JEWS By Flavius Josephus Bk. 3, chapter 6:4)

He also appointed the breastplate to be placed in the middle of the ephod, to resemble the earth, for that has the very middle place of the world. And the girdle which encompassed the high priest round, signified the ocean, for that goes round about and includes the universe. (THE ANTIQUITIES OF THE JEWS By Flavius Josephus Bk. 3, Chpt 7:7)

It was a Babylonian curtain, embroidered with blue, and fine linen, and scarlet, and purple, and of a contexture that was truly wonderful. Nor was this mixture of colors without its mystical interpretation, but was a kind of image of the universe; for by the scarlet there seemed to be enigmatically signified fire, by the fine flax the earth, by the blue the air, and by the purple the sea; two of them having their colors the foundation of this resemblance; but the fine flax and the purple have their own origin for that foundation, the earth producing the one, and the sea the other. This curtain had also embroidered upon it all that was mystical in the heavens, excepting that of the twelve signs, representing living creatures. (Josephus; Wars of the Jews; Bk. 5. Chapt. 5:4)

God came down one time each year to the Holy of Holies. Any other point is useless.

That would be 1,000 times in 1,000 years.

 

[Timtofly]

If you have contrary evidence, please provide a link to it.

WW2 is not in Jeremiah 19.

Neither is 70AD.

 

[Timtofly]

Once again, you draw conclusions from what I’ve said that aren’t based on anything I’ve said. It’s straightforward. Just like they can look at fruit trees and see leaves, you know summer is near. The leaves are a sign. In the same way, when they see the signs He was telling them about, know that destruction is near.

The only sign is the actual Second Coming. Do you feel there should be other signs? Has God reigned over every generation, and not just one in the first century?

 

[Timtofly]

Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
— Daniel 2:35


and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
— Mark 1:15

30AD then.

70AD had nothing to do with Scripture.