This generation

[sovereigngrace]

Has heaven and earth passed away?
What does it say to you?

God had always dealt in grace, mercy, and love towards man; however, the Jews were born under the Law of Moses and the traditions of the Law had to be kept. Jesus' ministry was to Israel and His message to the Jews was that of keeping the traditions of the Law, repentance, water baptism, and belief that Jesus was the promised Messiah. His disciples continued to teach these things even after His assentation and as a result Jewish believers continued the traditions of the Law until the destruction of the temple.

It wasn't until the risen Lord appeared to Paul and revealed to him that it is by grace we are saved through faith.

“For by grace are ye saved through faith. And that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)

What is your evidence of this?

You totally sidestepped all the questions and points. You have to.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Thanks. Copies of Eusebius' The Theophania including the original Syriac versions are easy to come by. I'm just wanting to find out why sovereigngrace said the quote I posted was fake. The works of Eusebius are used by people studying early Christianity from all schools of thought, not only Preterist, and are a good source of information about the early church.

Ok then. Where did Eusebius say that in The Theophania?

 

[JosephZ]

God came down one time each year to the Holy of Holies. Any other point is useless.

The point I'm making is that Jews living in the 1st century would associate the temple with the heavens and earth. Studying the culture and history of a people group at specific points in time, in this case Jews living in the 1st century, helps us to view things with a historical lens rather than from a 21st century point of view, thus giving us a better understanding historical events. Since history tells us that the temple in Jerusalem was seen as a miniature representation of the creation of the universe and that some of fixtures within the temple represented heaven, earth, seas, planets, etc., then it's safe to say that many of those who heard/read the words of the prophets, Jesus, or His disciples would associate the temple with the words heavens and earth.

 

[JosephZ]

Ok then. Where did Eusebius say that in The Theophania?

I read the same English translations as any other native English speaker. You're the first person that I'm aware of that claims that the quote I shared from Eusebius is fake, therefore; since the necessity of proof always lies with the person who lays charges, then it's your place to show that he didn't say what I shared.

 

[parousia70]

The holocaust lasted longer than 7 months.

And yet Nobody was suffering under enough tribulation to slay, cook and eat their own Babies like they were in the 3.5 year Jersualem Seige.

 

[jgr]

Neither is 70AD.

Never said it was.

 

[Hammster]

The only sign is the actual Second Coming. Do you feel there should be other signs? Has God reigned over every generation, and not just one in the first century?

The signs were the signs He just told them about. Don’t just make up stuff.

 

[Hammster]

30AD then.

70AD had nothing to do with Scripture.

I never linked 70 AD (or 30 AD) with the start of the kingdom. So I’m not sure what your point is.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I read the same English translations as any other native English speaker. You're the first person that I'm aware of that claims that the quote I shared from Eusebius is fake, therefore; since the necessity of proof always lies with the person who lays charges, then it's your place to show that he didn't say what I shared.

For the record, you made the claim, not me.

It is taken from notes written during the translation of the works of Eusebius by Samuel Lee.

 

[Timtofly]

It's the "harvest" at the end of the age, when "the reapers are the angels" (Matthew 13:39). The elect being gathered from the four winds of heaven were the saints being resurrected from every point of the compass where they had physically died. By the tenor of your posts, it appears you don't believe that the dead bodies of the saints will stand up again in a changed state made incorruptible, as Paul teaches. But we should reserve a discussion of 1 Corinthians 15 to a different post.

No I am not a proponent of 3 resurrections. 1 Corinthians 15 is the only chapter that defines the 3 harvests of the church. They are because of the Cross, not based on OT feast days. Only one of them is a resurrection.

One if them is a change, a form of resurrection without physically dying, at least not as any one physically dies to be dead.

The last harvest does not involve a resurrection, nor a change in the physical body.

The GWT is not a resurrection nor gathering of the church. Some claim it is not even a last chance to receive the ressurection, yet turn around and call it a resurrection anyway.

 

[JosephZ]

For the record, you made the claim, not me.
It is taken from notes written during the translation of the works of Eusebius by Samuel Lee.

I know where the quote comes from. I shared it and you are the one who made the claim that it was "a spurious quote" (False, Forged, Fake). So my questions to you are, why do you believe it's fake and what evidence do you have of this?

 

[3 Resurrections]

One if them is a change, a form of resurrection without physically dying, at least not as any one physically dies to be dead.

The last harvest does not involve a resurrection, nor a change in the physical body.

There is no "translation" change described in 1 Corinthians 15 without the individual physically dying. This text only describes a change for the physically-dead bodies of the saints, which will all be changed in a resurrection process. Paul was saying that none of the saints will stay asleep in the grave, but they will ALL be changed to an incorruptible condition.

The last "harvest" will indeed involve a bodily resurrection, since, just like Christ's example, "it is appointed unto man ONCE to die, and AFTER that the judgment." (Hebrews 9:27-28). No exceptions are listed here. There is no getting off this planet alive without passing through the physical death process. Not even at the end of fallen man's history on this planet.

 

[Zao is life]

So your claim is when Jesus uses that language here, it IS in the same specific, metaphoric meaning that the OT prophets employed, and is not to be taken Literally?:

Matthew 24:29
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Yes. Same goes for Revelation 6:12-14, where verse 14 uses very similar language to 2 Peter 3:10:

in which the heavens will pass away with a rushing noise 2 Peter 3:10
And the heaven departed like a scroll when it is rolled together Revelation 6:14.

Ahh.. But I can, because the Bible interprets it for us. "Elements" is the Greek "stoicheion" and is always used in scripture to refer to the basic, rudementary principles of the "law", not the "periodic table" as you would have it.

[4747 (stoixeíon) refers to "the rudiments with which mankind . . . were indoctrinated (before the time of Christ), i.e. the elements of religious training or the ceremonial precepts common alike to the worship of Jews and of Gentiles" (J. Thayer).

Here are ALL uses of "stoicheion" in scripture:

Ga 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements(stoicheion) of the world:

Ga 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements,(stoicheion) whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments (stoicheion) of the world, and not after Christ.

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments (stoicheion) of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles (stoicheion) of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

And finally.......
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

If you would only let scripture interpret itself, you will clearly see that the "elements" that melted with fervent heat of 2 Peter 3, were the "first principles of the oracles of God" of Hebrews 5:12 above.
They are the same, and they indeed melted with Fervent heat. We are not still waiting for this to occur.

When you interpret "elements" to mean rocks, dirt etc, and even going so amazingly far out as to interpret "stoicheion" to mean "planet earth" as is your apparent want, you are making the apostles, and therefore scripture, say something they are absolutely, irrefutably not saying at all.

I was not aware of the above until now, and I checked it out myself after reading what you wrote. I admit I can't argue against the above fact. Something for me to pray about and spend a few days thinking about because the first part of 2 Peter 3:10 says,

"..in which the heavens will pass away with a rushing noise.."

and the first part of Revelation 6:14 is,

"And the heaven departed like a scroll when it is rolled together Revelation 6:14",

which I believe is metaphoric and uses the same metaphor/hyperbole used by the prophets describing the destruction of Babylon, Egypt and (as you pointed out) many others, including the description of David's defeat of Saul.

BUT I don't see any of the above scriptures, or the scripture you have quoted till now as implying that Christ has already returned. I still do not find anything in the New Testament to imply that Revelation 6:12-17; 2 Peter 3:10-18; Revelation 11, 13, 17:12-18; Revelation 18 through the close of Revelation 20 has already taken place.

So even if I now acknowledge the possibility that 2 Peter 3:10 is not literal but metaphoric, this to me does not = "therefore Christ has already returned" or "therefore nothing in the Revelation is still future", or "therefore 1 Corinthians 15:21-24; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 2 Thessalonians chapters 1 & 2 have already been fulfilled".

There is simply no indication that the resurrection mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:21-24; and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 has already occurred, neither that 2 Thessalonians 1:5-12 through 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 have already been fulfilled.

Also, in exactly the same way that you have just shown that where and how the word stoicheion is used strongly implies or even proves a non-literal interpretation of the elements mentioned in 2 Peter 3:10, so the Greek words hieron and naos (temple), and where and how they are used in the New Testament, (click for the scriptures) prove that neither 2 Thessalonians 2:4 nor Revelation 11:1-2 are talking either about a physical temple or a temple in Jerusalem, but are referring to the church or the part of New Jerusalem that exists on earth.

So you will notice in this post that I acknowledge when scripture proves me wrong about something, and that is why I easily and readily admitted here now that where and how the word stoicheion is used in the New Testament, strongly implies or possibly even proves a non-literal interpretation of the elements mentioned in 2 Peter 3:10.

I've noticed though that in the past when I've pointed out some scriptural facts that interfere with Preterist theology (such as the fact regarding the words hieron and naos which I mentioned above), Preterists remain faithful to the theology rather than to scripture.

I still have not seen nearly enough evidence either that "this generation" is referring to any group of people other than the generation of Christians who would suffer great tribulation in the days leading up to the Lord's return, or that "this generation" refers only to the generation that would be alive in 70 A.D, but to no other generation.

I'm always really happy though when something becomes as clear to me as it did when you pointed out that the New Testament's use of the word stoicheion proves that we cannot legitimately take 2 Peter 3:10 up to mean the chemical elements of the physical earth and universe.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I know where the quote comes from. I shared it and you are the one who made the claim that it was "a spurious quote" (False, Forged, Fake). So my questions to you are, why do you believe it's fake and what evidence do you have of this?

I already told you. It is taken from notes written during the translation of the works of Eusebius by Samuel Lee.

 

[DavidPT]

I'm always really happy though when something becomes as clear to me as it did when you pointed out that the New Testament's use of the word stoicheion proves that we cannot legitimately take 2 Peter 3:10 up to mean the chemical elements of the physical earth and universe.

Some of this, all that is basically needed is to simply reason through these things rationally.

Genesis 9:11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.


Clearly, the flood was literal. Does that then mean God will engulf the planet in flames, this time instead of drowning ppl, He literally burns them to death because if the flood was literal so must the fire be literal? This verse says--- neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood. Obviously, a planet engulfed in flames doesn't involve flood waters. But the question is, this is where we need to think through this rationally, which is worse over all, being drowned to death or being burned to death?

Suppose one were out in the middle of an ocean and that the ship they are aboard starts going up in flames and there is no way to put the flames out. What fate would they choose? Would they stay aboard the ship risking burning to death, or would they jump into the ocean risking drowning to death eventually? 10 times out of 10 I bet they would choose the latter. So then, God is no longer going to wipe out mankind, animals, etc, by drowning them to death, He's going to do something far far more profound, this time He is going to wipe out mankind, animals, etc, by burning them to death.

Personally, I don't recall having ever taken 2 Peter 3:10 in a literal sense. Either Revelation 19 involves the 2nd coming or it doesn't. If it does, my position, nowhere in that entire ch does it give the impression anyone is literally being burned to death because the entire planet is engulfed in flames. You don't use imagery of feasting birds to convey a planet engulfed in flames and everyone burning to death. It's nonsensical because, even if not meaning in the literal sense, involving feasting birds, what about Noah's flood? Does anyone think feasting birds fit any of that? Aren't they going to eventually fall out of the sky themselves, thus drown with the others below? Wouldn't the same happen with feasting birds if they are circling a planet engulfed in flames? Eventually they are going to fall out of the sky themselves and burn up with everyone below, thus it is nonsensical to use imagery of feasting birds if the planet is literally engulfed in flames at the time.

 

[JosephZ]

I already told you. It is taken from notes written during the translation of the works of Eusebius by Samuel Lee.

The quote I gave came from the main text found on the pages of the book which are attributed to Eusebius, not the notes of Samuel Lee. Below I have copied the pages from the chapter the quote came from. I highlighted the footnotes in blue and the location where the quote I used is located in yellow. As you can see the quote doesn't come from Samuel Lee's notes.

 

[Timtofly]

The point I'm making is that Jews living in the 1st century would associate the temple with the heavens and earth. Studying the culture and history of a people group at specific points in time, in this case Jews living in the 1st century, helps us to view things with a historical lens rather than from a 21st century point of view, thus giving us a better understanding historical events. Since history tells us that the temple in Jerusalem was seen as a miniature representation of the creation of the universe and that some of fixtures within the temple represented heaven, earth, seas, planets, etc., then it's safe to say that many of those who heard/read the words of the prophets, Jesus, or His disciples would associate the temple with the words heavens and earth.

It does not matter what people think. It only matters what God does. I am not looking at it from a 21st century point of view. Preterism and Amil thought is just as pointless as your perspective from a 1st century point of view.

 

[Timtofly]

And yet Nobody was suffering under enough tribulation to slay, cook and eat their own Babies like they were in the 3.5 year Jersualem Seige.

Nope, that point does not fly. That also happened in Jeremiah's day and WW2. 70AD was not unusual by that standard. You make it sound like it was just a normal dinner setting like JGR.

 

[Timtofly]

"Remembering this saving commandment and all those things which have come to pass for us: the cross, the grave, the resurrection on the third day, the ascension into heaven, the sitting down at the right hand, and the second and glorious coming"

The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom
(A.D.347-407)
Archbishop of Constantinople

Are you going to say the "us" is that same "you" generation as the 1st century or the 3rd century?

 

[Timtofly]

The signs were the signs He just told them about. Don’t just make up stuff.

Give me all the events that were a sign as Jesus claimed, not what someone in this thread claims. Jesus claims a lot of events would happen, but not all of them are signs.