This generation

[Timtofly]

I never linked 70 AD (or 30 AD) with the start of the kingdom. So I’m not sure what your point is.

Obviously you have not given a start date. I did. There is also the point where the 10 toes themselves crumble. Obviously the head was no longer a world government.

 

[parousia70]

Nope, that point does not fly. That also happened in Jeremiah's day and WW2.

Cite your source for the claim in happened in WWII

 

[Timtofly]

There is no "translation" change described in 1 Corinthians 15 without the individual physically dying. This text only describes a change for the physically-dead bodies of the saints, which will all be changed in a resurrection process. Paul was saying that none of the saints will stay asleep in the grave, but they will ALL be changed to an incorruptible condition.

The last "harvest" will indeed involve a bodily resurrection, since, just like Christ's example, "it is appointed unto man ONCE to die, and AFTER that the judgment." (Hebrews 9:27-28). No exceptions are listed here. There is no getting off this planet alive without passing through the physical death process. Not even at the end of fallen man's history on this planet.

You are missing the point, as you decided not to incorporate 1 Corinthians 15.

The Cross was the one and only physical bodily resurrection. All the OT redeemed left Abraham's bosom and entered Paradise. That was the first harvest. The Second Coming is the second harvest. Those alive and remain will not physically die, a normal death. They will be changed in the air. They will die to Adam's flesh, but changed to their permanent incorruptible physical body.

The last harvest is after the 1,000 year reign of Christ. All those on earth will simply transition from one reality to the next, without feeling a thing. One second they were on the old earth, and the next moment they will be on the New Earth. That is about the only point about Revelation 20 and 21 worth mentioning.

 

[Hammster]

Give me all the events that were a sign as Jesus claimed, not what someone in this thread claims. Jesus claims a lot of events would happen, but not all of them are signs.

Matthew 24:4-31

 

[parousia70]

The Cross was the one and only physical bodily resurrection. All the OT redeemed left Abraham's bosom and entered Paradise.

There is no scripture the teachers the OT redeemed left Abrahams bosom at the cross.

 

[Hammster]

Obviously you have not given a start date. I did. There is also the point where the 10 toes themselves crumble. Obviously the head was no longer a world government.

Sounds good.

 

[Hammster]

Basically, nobody has given any evidence from the text to explain why, in Matthew 24, “this generation” means some future generation. All that’s been given, in a nutshell, is that it could be that generation because it doesn’t fit with their eschatological presuppositions.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The quote I gave came from the main text found on the pages of the book which are attributed to Eusebius, not the notes of Samuel Lee. Below I have copied the pages from the chapter the quote came from. I highlighted the footnotes in blue and the location where the quote I used is located in yellow. As you can see the quote doesn't come from Samuel Lee's notes.
View attachment 314786

You are not understanding me. I did not say footnotes. The book is his own thoughts /notes / commentary on Eusebius' Theophaia.

THEOPHANIA.
PRELIMINARY DISSERTATION.
To Which (will be) Added Lee’s Notes from the Body of the Work

PART III.

ON THE PERSONAL REIGN OF CHRIST ON EARTH.

This question has been shortly discussed by our Author in the following work, (pp. 278—281), and determined in the negative; which might have sufficed for us, had it not involved other considerations, which ought not to be overlooked here. For, if it be true,—as shewn above,—that all things foretold by the Prophets, received their fulfilment at a certain period of time; it will also be necessary to shew, that the promise of Christ’s coming, so frequently mentioned in the New Testament—and of which the notion of a personal reign is only an abuse,— did actually take place within that period ; and this we now propose briefly to do.

We have already seen that the Disciples inquired of our Lord, on a certain occasion,” What shall be the sign of thy coming?’ (Matth. xxiv. 3). After warning them, as noticed by our Author, he answers, among other things, “As the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even to the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” (ib. ver. 27.) And again, (ver. 30), “Then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power, and great glory:” and (ib. ver. 37. comp. Mark xiii. 26, 33: Luke, xxi. 27), “As the days of Noe were, so also shall the coming of the Son of man be. “Then follows an intimation of the destruction which is to ensue:” Two shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.” It is added,” Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord cometh.” It should be remembered, all this is said in opposition to the notion, that Christ shall then be found personally, either here or there, as Eusebius has well remarked. It should also be remembered, that this His coming was to be preceded and followed by unheard of tribulations, not only in Judea, but among all the tribes of the earth [ Matth. xxiv. 5—12; 29, seq.] : and that no precise time was fixed for its occurrence. It was, as in all the other cases adverted to above, to be known by the events pointed out. [Ib. ver. 33. “So likewise ye, when ye shall see these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.” And, ib. ver. 36: “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven. “If this be the fact, then the seventy weeks of Daniel had not defined the period chronologically, in which these things should take place ; it had only described the events—undetermined in the prediction—by which the period should be known; and this was enough.]

This event is again introduced in St. John (xxi. 20) in these words: “If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? “And again, (Acts i. 11,) “This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven,-“” which has tempted many to imagine, that the promised coming must also be personal. But, it is not necessary to suppose, that the “like manner “mentioned, must refer to the person of our Lord : one would rather think it would relate to the manner of His ascension into heaven ; and this was in a cloud, attended probably, as that of Elijah was, with a chariot of fire, and a whirlwind [2 Kings ii. 11.].

If then we may rely on this, we are brought at once to the several descriptions given of this coming, both in the Old and the New Testament. In Daniel for example, we have (chap. vii. 13, 14) : “One like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven :”…mid there was given Him dominion and glory :” which seems to identify itself with (Matth. xxiv. 30), “They shall see (ib. the sign of) the Son of man, coming in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory:” and also with (chap. xxvi. 64,) “Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.’ “And this the High Priest seems to have understood, as an intended comment on this place of Daniel. Again, this place in Daniel is evidently referred to, in these words (Rev. i. 7.): “Behold he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see (perceive, recognize) Him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him” (Comp. ib. xiv. 14.). Where, it should be observed, judgments and woes are had in view. And to this St. Paul appears to refer when he says (2 Thess. i. 7), “When the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire, taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.” And again, (ib. ii. 8.) speaking of the man of sin, he says, “Whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth: and with the brightness of his coming:” alluding to our Lord’s words, that this should be as lightning shining from the east to the west; and, as foretold by Zechariah (chap. ix. 14.): “The Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrows shall go forth as the lightning : ” …”and shall go with the whirlwinds of the south. “Again, (in 2 Pet. iii. 5. seq.) this coming of our Lord is adverted to, and the times of the flood are taken by way of illustration, just as our Lord had before done [Matth. xxiv. 39. They “knew not until the food came, and tool( them all away ; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be. “That is, its precise period is not foretold: the signs of its approach only are. St. Peter (ib. ver. 10) connects this place “with our Lord’s prediction also by the terms, ” the Lord will come as a thief in the night (ib. Matth. ver. 43). St. Peter also adverts to the Epistles of Paul on this subject (vv. 15, 16). The place alluded to is, apparently, 2 Tim. iii. 1. seq. ” This know also, that in the last days, perilous times shall come,” &c. Then, in order to fix the times here meant, he adds, “Of this sort are they which creep into houses (9). “But they shall proceed no farther, ” &c. So Jude also, as given in the text. St. Paul again, in 1 Tim. iv. 1, seq. “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils. Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, “&c. That the Gnostic sects generally did this, is matter of fact. Romanists, who partake to a certain extent in their errors, never did it but partially.], in his memorable prediction. Its period is termed the day of the Lord” and,—as our Lord had also said,— it is to “come as a thief in the night:” the judgments to accompany it are then dwelt upon ; and the descent of the new heavens and earth is enounced, for the encouragement of the Believers.

Jude again, (14.) cites a prophecy of the very early times of Enoch on this subject. “The Lord,“ says he, “cometh with ten thousand of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly” &c. He identifies the persons meant in these words: ” These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaking great swelling words, having men’s persons in admiration because of advantage. “He then warns them, that this had been foretold; that “there should be mockers in the last time.” “These,” he adds,” be they (now, i.e. in these times) who separate themselves, sensual, having not the spirit.”

I need only add to this, that the Book of the Revelation, is only a more detailed and highly figurative account of this Revelation of Jesus Christ; in which a very large portion of the Old Testament is brought immediately to bear upon this subject ; for the purpose of shewing, among other things, that the Testimony of Jesus, is the spirit of (all) prophecy. [Rev. xix. 10.] I have already remarked, that, from the beginning of the fourth chapter, to the end of this Book, we have two distinct visions, intended to depict the judgments inflicted by the Lamb on his enemies; and to declare the final, and full, establishment of His Church. Towards the close of the first vision (chap. x. 6.) it is sworn that “there shall be time no longer:” in other words, nothing now remains of the predictions of Holy Writ, which shall require time for its fulfilment : and this is only an echo of Daniel (chap. xii. 7.) where an oath to the same effect is sworn, declaring that, when the power of the holy people shall be scattered (abroad) “all these things shall be finished.“ So also here (Rev. ib. ver. 7.), when the seventh Angel shall begin to sound (his trumpet) “the mystery of God shall be finished.” And (ib. xi. 15.) The seventh Angel sounds, and now “the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever ;” as remarked above, exactly as Daniel had also predicted. Again, (giving the same things in a further vision, ib. xvi. 17.) when the seventh Angel has poured out his vial [Where the seventh vial of his vision answers to the seventh trumpet of the preceding one.], a voice proceeds from the Throne saying, ” It is done.” Some further particulars are added for the purpose apparently, of making the whole more specific; and it is repeated, (xxi. 6.) “It is done.”

In chap. xxii. 5, the particulars of the last vision end, when the Evangelist adds, as instructed by the Angel, ” The Lord God of the holy prophets sent his Angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.” And it is added, “Behold, I come quickly:” that is, I Jesus will shortly reveal myself in power, inflicting judgment on my adversaries, avenging the blood of my servants, and establishing for ever my kingdom. The warning that all is shortly to come to pass, is repeated in verses 10, 12, 20. To which the response of the Church is, “Even so, come, Lord Jesus.”

The fact, that the Lord Jesus did so come, and this within the period fixed by Daniel, and recognized by our Lord, is certain, as well from the fall of Jerusalem, and the dispersion of the Jews taking place even within that generation, as it also is from the fall of the heathen Dynasty of Rome, which commenced its work of destruction and of persecution from the same period ; and also, from the establishment of the Christian Church, which immediately followed. The miraculous powers granted to the Apostles for this purpose, in the first instance, and continued, as it should seem, for some time after their death, were gradually and imperceptibly withdrawn, as being no longer wanted. The ordinary aids of the Spirit were granted, and, according to the promise of our Lord, are never to be withdrawn [John xiv. 10. comp. Horn. viii. 1, see|.; 1 Cor. xii. 1—14, &c.]: these, with the helps of Holy Scripture, and the ordinances of the Church, are now sufficient, and for ever shall be, so to build up Believers in their most holy faith, and to make them even Temples of the Holy Ghost, that they shall want no manner of good thing; but shall go on their way rejoicing here; be made meet to be partakers with the Saints in light, and finally be received among them.

To conclude: If the word of prophecy is the more sure evidence to the Believer of the truth of the hope that is in him; then, it must have been delivered in terms such as would at once be intelligible to all, and Would, at the same time, set forth such facts as would be obvious, convincing, and accessible to all. And this character it certainly sustains. To notice that portion of it only, which has been brought under review in this inquiry: Four great Empires are brought before us, which are to fall in succession. The first three of these are determined by the Prophet, as shewn above: while the last, or fourth, is made too plain to admit of a doubt, that the heathen Dynasty of Rome was intended. Our Lord also points this out in a manner not to be misunderstood : it was that, which should set up the abomination of desolation; which should not leave one stone upon another in the Temple; which, according to Daniel, should destroy the City and Sanctuary; but which, in its turn, should also fall. And this again, the Author of the Book of the Revelation designates, as the Power that in his days reigned over the Princes of the earth : the woman sitting on the seven hills; in other words, on the Beast which had “seven heads” and “ten horns, “and was seen “drunken with the blood of the Saints.” This Power was to make war with the Lamb; according to Daniel, with the Saints; and, for a while was to prevail : but, according to both, was to be consigned to the burning flame, and this destruction was to be permanent.

These Horns, or Kings, are placed moreover in the LAST PERIOD or DAYS, of THIS DYNASTY: let this be carefully remembered: to that they must belong; they cannot therefore, be assigned, without palpable violence, to any other period. In this period St. Paul looked for them, under the general appellation of the Man of sin; their description he took from Daniel, and their destruction he spoke of, in terms equivalent to those used by that Prophet. Other writers of the New Testament, and particularly St. John in the Apocalypse, looked in like manner for things which were shortly to come to pass, as St. Paul did when he declared, that he who then withheld, should do so, until lie should be taken out of the way: all of which was but a virtual repetition of our Lord’s prediction, when he said, “This generation shall not pass away until these things be :” and, “If I will that he (John) tarry until I come, what is that to thee ?”

All these authorities concur moreover, in the declaration, that when all these things should have been done, the End [See also p. 282 below, note.] should come: that “the mystery of God should be finished, as he had declared to his servants the prophets:” it should be completed: time should now be no more: the End of all things (so foretold) should be at hand, and be fully brought to pass: in these days should be fulfilled all that had been spoken of Christ (and of his Church) by the Prophets: or, in other words, When the Gospel should have been preached in all the world for a testimony to all nations, and the power of the Holy People be scattered (abroad), then should the End come, then should all these things be finished. I need now only say, All these things have been done: the old and elementary system passed away with a great noise ; all these predicted Empires have actually fallen: and the New kingdom; the New heaven and earth, the New Jerusalem,—all of which were to descend from God, to be formed by his power, have been realized on earth; all these things have been done in the sight of all the nations: God’s holy arm has been made bare in their sight: His judgments have prevailed, and they remain for an everlasting testimony to the whole world: His kingdom has come, as it was foretold it should, and His Will has, so far, been done; His purposes have been finished: and, from that day, to the extreme end of time, it will be the duty, as indeed it will be the great privilege of the Church, to gather into its bosom the Jew, the Greek, the Scythian, Barbarian, bond and free; and to do this as the Apostles did in their days, in obedience, faith, and hope. [This was once done by the exertion of miracle, for a testimony to all nations and to all times. If many have fallen back since those times into heathenism, let it be remembered, the Apocalypse warned the churches of the danger of this, from the first.]

 

[Timtofly]

Cite your source for the claim in happened in WWII

Holocaust online encyclopedia.

 

[Timtofly]

Matthew 24:4-31

One verse.

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven"

 

[Timtofly]

There is no scripture the teachers the OT redeemed left Abrahams bosom at the cross.

"Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:"

Jesus immediately went and the resurrection was immediate.

"Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

At the same time the Holy Spirit was given, and men became apostles, teachers, evangelists, prophets, and pastors, this point of the Cross also opened up physical Paradise allowing a physical bodily resurrection into that Paradise.

Jesus said that day the thief would be in Paradise. The thief did not go to Abraham's bosom. It was empty. Those who have physically passed on since the Cross go to Paradise, not Abraham's bosom. The soul was in Abraham's bosom. A soul and permanent incorruptible physical body are in Paradise. That is the gift of the Atonement Covenant made possible on the Cross.

"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

Many put the emphasis on the death part as if death waits until the Second Coming. No! The point is that after the Cross, no one would taste death, as long as they accepted God's gift of the Atonement. This is not waiting for death. This is about never tasting death period, ever. Those in the OT tasted death, that was the death of Abraham's bosom.

 

[jgr]

Holocaust online encyclopedia.

Nothing there.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The Cross was the one and only physical bodily resurrection

The resurrection of "Christ the First-fruits" was not the only example of a physical bodily resurrection that day. You have mentioned above the other Matthew 27:52-53 First-fruits saints that were also raised that same day (144,000 of them) and who were seen of many in Jerusalem. But that was only the First resurrection, with another of just the same kind of physical bodily resurrection to follow.

The Second Coming is the second harvest. Those alive and remain will not physically die, a normal death. They will be changed in the air.

You are following the typical misunderstanding of what the rapture was going to accomplish. There is absolutely no mention at all in either 1 Thessalonians 4 or in 1 Corinthians 15 of a translation-type change in the air for anyone. The scripture rule is that all mankind is appointed to physically die once, and only once, just as Christ only died once. At the second coming, there was never a promise that any translations of the living would take place. You have to invent this doctrine in order to teach it.

 

[Zao is life]

Some of this, all that is basically needed is to simply reason through these things rationally.

Genesis 9:11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.


Clearly, the flood was literal. Does that then mean God will engulf the planet in flames, this time instead of drowning ppl, He literally burns them to death because if the flood was literal so must the fire be literal? This verse says--- neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood. Obviously, a planet engulfed in flames doesn't involve flood waters. But the question is, this is where we need to think through this rationally, which is worse over all, being drowned to death or being burned to death?

Suppose one were out in the middle of an ocean and that the ship they are aboard starts going up in flames and there is no way to put the flames out. What fate would they choose? Would they stay aboard the ship risking burning to death, or would they jump into the ocean risking drowning to death eventually? 10 times out of 10 I bet they would choose the latter. So then, God is no longer going to wipe out mankind, animals, etc, by drowning them to death, He's going to do something far far more profound, this time He is going to wipe out mankind, animals, etc, by burning them to death.

Personally, I don't recall having ever taken 2 Peter 3:10 in a literal sense. Either Revelation 19 involves the 2nd coming or it doesn't. If it does, my position, nowhere in that entire ch does it give the impression anyone is literally being burned to death because the entire planet is engulfed in flames. You don't use imagery of feasting birds to convey a planet engulfed in flames and everyone burning to death. It's nonsensical because, even if not meaning in the literal sense, involving feasting birds, what about Noah's flood? Does anyone think feasting birds fit any of that? Aren't they going to eventually fall out of the sky themselves, thus drown with the others below? Wouldn't the same happen with feasting birds if they are circling a planet engulfed in flames? Eventually they are going to fall out of the sky themselves and burn up with everyone below, thus it is nonsensical to use imagery of feasting birds if the planet is literally engulfed in flames at the time.

All of this is so true. I was never 100% sure 2 Peter 3:10 was talking about the chemical elements of the earth and the universe but I couldn't see how it could be metaphor either, until it was pointed out here that the use of the word stoicheîon in the New Testament proves that it's not talking about the chemical elements of the earth.

I always had a suspicion that "And the earth and the works in it will be burned up" is talking about the works of fallen men/mankind.

Your post is excellent. Revelation 19 is indeed talking about the coming of Christ and defeat of His enemies in the world so the birds eating the flesh of kings etc is metaphor for ""And the earth and the works in it will be burned up", and ""And the earth and the works in it will be burned up" is metaphor for the birds eating the flesh of kings etc, and both are metaphorically referring to what Revelation 16 calls Armageddon a.ka "the battle of Armageddon".

 

[eclipsenow]

This generation is worse, and every generation is getting worser.

3
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.
10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

Except it's been the so-called "Last Days" for 2000 years and counting. (Acts 2, Hebrews 1)

Everyone thinks the youth of the next generation are disrespectful of their elders - even old Aristotle said:

They [Young People] have exalted notions, because they have not been humbled by life or learned its necessary limitations; moreover, their hopeful disposition makes them think themselves equal to great things -- and that means having exalted notions. They would always rather do noble deeds than useful ones: Their lives are regulated more by moral feeling than by reasoning -- all their mistakes are in the direction of doing things excessively and vehemently. They overdo everything -- they love too much, hate too much, and the same with everything else.
(Aristotle)

 

[eclipsenow]

What do these all have in common? They are all taking about the generation that Jesus is speaking. However, there are eschatological views that expect us to ignore this language in Matthew 24.


Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
— Matthew 24:34

Ideas and words must be added or read into this to make it fit a particular view. However, taken at face value, like the other instances, simply means that the generation that Jesus was speaking to were those in view, not some eisegesical generation in the future.

How dare they! It’s that generation - not 2000 years later
In Matthew 24 the disciples asked Jesus about THAT TEMPLE that the disciples could see with their own eyeballs. Jesus answered about THAT TEMPLE - otherwise he was lying. We must also remember that in the previous week Jesus had overturned the tables in the temple, judged the Pharisees, wept over Jerusalem, and said his own body was the true temple that would be destroyed and raised in 3 days. Now he tells the disciples THAT temple was going to be destroyed within 40 years!He said all 'these things' - the earthquakes and false messiahs and nation against nation - would happen in that generation. Luke is even more specific, and predicted Jerusalem would be surrounded by an army. It was, within 40 years the Romans came. After a long and awful siege, they burned down the temple and then sacrificed to the Eagle standard, worshipping Caesar. Then because there was still gold in the temple when it caught fire, the gold melted down between all the drains and temple bricks. So the soldiers demolished it in their hunt for gold, not leaving even one brick standing on another. It was all fulfilled literally and clearly in AD70 and nothing makes us look for a future Abomination that causes desolation. It all happened exactly as Jesus said, within the timeframe he literally said. That genertion.

But - the futurist objects about Jesus returning on the clouds to judge the world! Surely that didn't happen in that generation - we're still here and the world still plugs along. But if you look closer Jesus is quoting Daniel 7 where Jesus is not returning to the Earth at all! He's returning to HEAVEN after triumphing over the cross. Jesus is the Son of Man who will "ride the clouds" (an ancient middle eastern symbol of power) back into the throne room of heaven, right up to sit next to the Ancient of Days. NOT EARTH! Heaven itself. The cosmic language of stars falling and moon dark etc are all common OT expressions used when a nation is being judged - as Israel was. The 'angels' are messengers going out with the gospel. There's a lot more to say about it, but the bottom line is it's just not the return of the Lord to Earth - it's to the Ancient of Days. When the disciples see Rome burn Jerusalem to the ground, they are to remember Jesus reigns in heaven. See this thread and the Sydney Anglican sermons on it here.

A second look at Dr Peter Bolt's view of Jesus going TO the Ancient of Days

What staggers me is how dare the futurists just insert 2000 years to make it all about us and our generation? (And it's always our generation, we seem to be a bit narcissistic that way.) They would rather Jesus just lied to the disciples and started talking about some still hypothetical extra temple thousands of years later than talk about THAT TEMPLE in THAT GENERATION - all which happened as predicted.

Finally Jesus finally turns to THAT DAY. Judgement Day. The actual end of the world this time. But note how different THAT DAY is to THESE THINGS?

THESE THINGS = the destruction of that temple was local, predictable, and escapable. You could see the armies coming and run to the hills! They happened.

THAT DAY is the total opposite. It's universal, utterly unpredictable, and completely inescapable. There's no avoiding it. Everyone will be lined up like sheep and goats. It has not happened yet.

The bottom line? God let the temple be destroyed so the church age would not be tempted to go back to the law, but focus on the gospel. Jesus predicted it, and said it was a sign of him reigning. He reigns over us now - and according to the New Testament - that's so we can be his people, his kingdom, his priests sharing God with mankind. But instead, oh wait - sorry God - but we're too busy to do your gospel work. Here's another six hundred and sixty six futurist timetables to compare and contrast!

 

[sovereigngrace]

All of this is so true. I was never 100% sure 2 Peter 3:10 was talking about the chemical elements of the earth and the universe but I couldn't see how it could be metaphor either, until it was pointed out here that the use of the word stoicheîon in the New Testament proves that it's not talking about the chemical elements of the earth.

I always had a suspicion that "And the earth and the works in it will be burned up" is talking about the works of fallen men/mankind.

Your post is excellent. Revelation 19 is indeed talking about the coming of Christ and defeat of His enemies in the world so the birds eating the flesh of kings etc is metaphor for ""And the earth and the works in it will be burned up", and ""And the earth and the works in it will be burned up" is metaphor for the birds eating the flesh of kings etc, and both are metaphorically referring to what Revelation 16 calls Armageddon a.ka "the battle of Armageddon".

Premils have to spiritualize this away as it forbids Premil. The reality is, it is the Amils that are actually the Literalists.

 

[Hammster]

One verse.

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven"

Just in the context of that, there’s more than one sign.


“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.
— Matthew 24:29-30

Then He says


“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
— Matthew 24:29

“Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.
— Matthew 24:32-33

All these things are everything He just finished talking about.

 

[Hammster]

Except it's been the so-called "Last Days" for 2000 years and counting. (Acts 2, Hebrews 1)

Everyone thinks the youth of the next generation are disrespectful of their elders - even old Aristotle said:

They [Young People] have exalted notions, because they have not been humbled by life or learned its necessary limitations; moreover, their hopeful disposition makes them think themselves equal to great things -- and that means having exalted notions. They would always rather do noble deeds than useful ones: Their lives are regulated more by moral feeling than by reasoning -- all their mistakes are in the direction of doing things excessively and vehemently. They overdo everything -- they love too much, hate too much, and the same with everything else.
(Aristotle)

The last days spoken of are the last days of the old covenant. I think that’s laid out in Hebrews and in other places.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The last days spoken of are the last days of the old covenant. I think that’s laid out in Hebrews and in other places.

That is simply not true. The problem is: Preterists fail to grasp that the old covenant ended, and the new covenant began, at the cross. If you fail to see this then you will be confused on this overall matter.

The last days came in with Christ. It was Christ’s earthly ministry that ushered in the last days, a period that will terminated in the glorious second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. Hebrews 1:1-2 declares, “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son.”

Christ’s impeccable life, His vicarious death and glorious resurrection perfectly fulfilled the demands of this notable prophecy. Hebrews 9:26 says, “now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.”

Peter clearly tells us that Joel 2 refers to Pentecost in Acts 2:16-21. Moreover, Acts 2 also reveals that the last days began with the move of the Holy Spirit in the early church. Peter says, “this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh.”

1 Peter 1:18-20 also confirm the fact that says, “Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.”

I John 2:18 says, “Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.”

1 Corinthians 10:11 says, “Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.”