This generation

[jgr]

How many cannibals have been reported since then? You claim cannibalism only happened in 70AD and no other time ever in human history. This is not a metric to prove your point.

Why not answer the question?

How many WW2 Jews roasted and dined on their children?

 

[3 Resurrections]

In Revelation 20, after a physical resurrection, no one can have a sin nature. The resurrection was not to Adam's sinful flesh. It was to God’s permanent incorruptible physical bodies. John did not have to repost the whole teaching on a first resurrection. Paul and Jesus already covered the point. One can either accept what Jesus and Paul already stated, or define a resurrection in their own human understanding, and thus in error.

But I do not contest this. Any saint who is physically resurrected does not have a sin nature, and enjoys a permanent, incorruptible physical body, as you have said. Jesus and Paul did indeed speak about the First resurrection event and what characterized it. That was actually the subject under discussion on the Mount of Transfiguration with Elijah and Moses. But it was only the FIRST one, after all, with at least a second resurrection to follow it.

To claim no period of time can exist, just because Isaiah never gave any periods of time, is not paying attention to history itself.

I never claimed the literal thousand-year period did not exist. In fact, it was actually going on in Isaiah's days, though he did not write about the specific amount of time that had been allowed for it. John is the only one who describes it in that manner as limited to a specific time span of a literal thousand years.

Where in Isaiah 65 is wickedness mentioned.

Isaiah 65:20 mentions the existence of "sinners" that are "accursed" in this NHNE.

Where in Revelation 20 is wickedness mentioned?

From start to finish in this Revelation 20 chapter, wickedness is being judged - both human and angelic.

Where in Revelation 21 is wickedness mentioned?

The wicked dead are judged at Christ's return; all the "fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars". But sinfulness is continuing to be healed among the nations AFTER the New Jerusalem and the NHNE is set up in Revelation 21. That tree of life in Revelation 22:2 produces leaves that are for the "healing of the nations". This is providing an ongoing, continual, year-round benefit for the nations and the wicked who are outside the gates of the New Jerusalem, even today.

 

[Hammster]

No, the Atonement brought an end to the OT Law. Nothing else had to happen.

Are you sure? It seems to me that the resurrection was pretty important.

 

[Timtofly]

I posted this before. Maybe you missed it.

From verse one to verse 34 there are 14 uses of “you” as a second person plural, meaning “y’all who I’m talking to”.

Here’s the parable you are referring to.


“Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.
— Matthew 24:32-33

Based on this, who is it that needs to look for signs? His immediate audience.

Then He says this


Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
— Matthew 24:34

Again, He’s talking to His immediate audience. And when He said this generation, it’s the generation He just told to look for signs.

So grammatically, it has to be that generation to whom He was speaking to.

Do you take the parable as a parable or a literal fact? If it is not a parable, then you have a point. If it is a parable the "you" in the parable is not referring to the "you" the parable is being given to. No one is literally in a parable. Your point is moot if it is a parable, when it comes to the grammatical written word.

Now did Jesus claim every time what was a parable or was that a point only made in the written word. Should you differentiate between what you guess Jesus actually said or go by the written point it was a parable, that leaves no doubt? You have to remove the point it was a parable, and agree that Jesus was just given them a botany lesson, clearly meaning the "you" was the "you" understanding summer time. Then you would have to declare Matthew was wrong in calling it a parable.

 

[JulieB67]

But Christ is also called "the morning star" in 2 Peter 1:19. And that "morning star" is also given to the saints in Revelation 2:28.

Job 38:7 "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for Joy?"

This was before the present foundation of this world/age. And Satan was once part of this group.

But Christ is the True Morning Star, Satan is the fake - Reading the scriptures of Lucifer pins this down who this is. Christ wasn't cut down but Satan was.

II Corinthians 11:14 "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."

Transformed in the Greek means disguised. And that's the why he is able to fool most of the entire world.

Yet this cherub who became Satan was destined to be burned up and turned into ashes upon the earth, so that "never shalt thou exist anymore" in Ezekiel 28:19

Satan will be turned from ashes within. That's what happens when you're thrown into the Lake of Fire. But that has not happened yet.

Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.."

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Paul states one must have the full amour on to fight the trickery of Satan in that "evil day". This has nothing to do with the destruction in 70AD. What trickery and wiles did Satan bring on then? If he was disguised as an angel of light who saw him? You don't need a disguise if you're behind the scenes. You will be front and center.

This is quite enough to do battle with, even without Satan and his destroyed hosts being present.

So be it. I prefer to heed the warnings by Christ and Paul and watch whether it happens in my generation or not. We are told to watch and not to believe in first Christ on the scene. Christ says believe it not.

Those just waiting on Christ and think there's nothing left to be fulfilled from the bible are in danger of falling away. "One will be taken, the other left". Taken does not mean removed in the verse, it means "to associate oneself with".

But anyway, we all have to sail our own ships but I for one think it's very important to heed the warnings.

 

[DavidPT]

Was Jesus lying when we see even today, that kingdom still growing? Why would it have stopped in 70AD?

That would have to be the logic if this generation in the OD is pertaining to what the OP has it pertaining to. After all, the text does say that this generation shall not pass, till all be fulfilled first. So then, did the kingdom no longer expand once 70 AD arrived? But if it has and that it continues to, that means it hasn't been fulfilled yet, it is being fulfilled. Eventually there will come a time when it is no longer being fulfilled, obviously meaning once the great white throne judgment has taken place and is finished. The kingdom no longer expands after that, meaning that no one is still being added to it.

Post 70 AD the kingdom continued having ppl added to it, though. It even continues today, ppl being added to it. Preterists don't even dispute this as far as I can tell, so why are they making Jesus out to be a false prophet via their interpretation of this generation in the OD? Fortunately, the rest of us can see that the Preterist interpretation of this generation in the OD makes Jesus out to be a false prophet, thus we refuse to interpret it in a manner such as that, where it makes Jesus out to be a false prophet, since there are numerous things that weren't fulfilled before this generation allegedly passed away in the first century, and that Jesus said all things must be fulfilled first. What exactly are some not grasping about the word 'all' in that context? It certainly isn't meaning some things, it is meaning all things, and that includes the expanding of the kingdom.

 

[DavidPT]

Do you take the parable as a parable or a literal fact? If it is not a parable, then you have a point. If it is a parable the "you" in the parable is not referring to the "you" the parable is being given to. No one is literally in a parable. Your point is moot if it is a parable, when it comes to the grammatical written word.

This is brilliant reasoning.

 

[JosephZ]

This is simply not true

There cannot be 2 covenants ongoing at the one time. That is absurd! One terminated the other. There cannot be 2 competing priesthoods. One replaced the other.

The Law was to remain until all is fulfilled.

For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is fulfilled. (Matthew 5:18)

Hebrews 8:13: “In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old (palaioō, worn out, decayed, declared obsolete). Now that which decayeth (palaioō, worn out, decayed, declared obsolete) and waxeth old (gerasko) is ready to vanish away.”

Notice in the verse you quoted it said "is ready to vanish away" meaning it had not occurred just yet.

The New Covenant didn't come into being instantly and the temple system was still in operation for Jewish believers from the period 30AD to 70AD (40 years). the Jews were born into the Law, therefore they had to continue to follow the Law. This did not apply to the gentiles as they were never under the Law.

God allowed the Jews who remained under the law time to repent, in hope that they would choose Christ.

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

Just as the Israelites wandered in the wilderness for 40 years, so did those living in the 40 years from the time of the Resurrection to the destruction of the temple. Those who refused to believe in God’s Word failed to inherit His promise.

Jesus taught the continuation of offering of sacrifices at the temple.

Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. (Matthew 5:23-24)

The Christian believers in Jerusalem were eagerly observing the law.

When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers received us warmly. The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: "You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. (Acts 21:17-20)

The ministry of Jesus and the twelve disciples was exclusively to the Jews.

"These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 10:5-6)

And this mission to the Jews continued for several years after the resurrection of Jesus as can be seen in the Book of Acts.

"Now those who had been scattered by the persecution that broke out when Stephen was killed traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus and Antioch, spreading the word only among Jews." And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. (Acts 8:1)

Paul received the mystery of salvation through grace after meeting the resurrected Jesus on the road to Damascus where the risen Lord appeared to him.

"As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked. “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.” (Acts 9:3-6)

“Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead” (Galatians 1:1)

“I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.” (Galatians 1:11-12)

The Law was still being taught by Jewish believers.

“Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, ‘Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.’” (Acts 15:1)

“Some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.” (Acts 15:5)

At first there was disagreement among the apostles between what Paul was teaching and what they were. This debate can be found in Acts 15 (The Council at Jerusalem), but in the end it was agreed that the Gentiles were free from the requirements of the of the Law for salvation. It was also decided that Paul and the others would minister to the gentiles and Peter and the apostles would continue their ministry among the Jews.

“The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter. After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, ‘Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.’” (Acts 15:6-11)

The council came to agreement that both Jews and Gentiles are saved through the same process, through the grace of God, and Paul refers back to this debate in Galatians.

“On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised (gentiles), just as Peter had been to the circumcised(Jews). For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles. James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised.” (Galatians 2:7-9)

As can be seen there was a gradual transformation between the New and the Old. The Old Covenant and New ran parallel to one another until the temple was destroyed.

When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Hebrews 8:13)

The temple, the sacrificial system, and the priesthood, were done away in 70AD and the Jews could no longer look to them for redemption or atonement. From that day forward forgiveness and mercy could only be found through Jesus Christ and His work on the cross alone.

All authorities concur in the declaration that “when all these things should have been done”, ‘The End’ should come: that “the mystery of God should be finished as he had declared to His servants the prophets“: it should be completed: time should now be no more: the End of all things (so foretold) should be at hand, and be fully brought to pass: in these days should be fulfilled all that had been spoken of Christ (and of His church) by the prophets: or, in other words, when the gospel should have been preached in all the world for a testimony to all nations, and the power of the Holy People be scattered (abroad), then should the End come, then should all these things be finished. I need now only say, all these things have been done: the old and elementary system passed away with a great noise; all these predicted empires have actually fallen, and the new kingdom, the new heaven and earth, the new Jerusalem–all of which were to descend from God, to be formed by His power, have been realised on earth; all these things have been done in the sight of all the nations; God’s holy arm has been made bare in their sight: His judgments have prevailed, and they remain for an everlasting testimony to the whole world. His kingdom has come, as it was foretold it should, and His will has, so far, been done; His purposes have been finished. -- Eusebius

 

[Jamdoc]

They didn't believe "probably", which would have left them dead.

Instead, they believed and heeded Jesus' warning, and fled, and saved their lives.

Jesus and history tell us exactly what would, and did, happen. Jesus was and is not inclined to lie.

The discernment and actions of the Judean Christians are indisputable testimony to the relevance and applicability of Jesus' discourse to their generation.

and Jesus didn't return
so there's still something to watch for.
stop disconnecting things that Jesus connected.

 

[JosephZ]

How? They only saw the physical. No one really understood the spiritual. If they did, all of first century Israel would have left the physical Law for the Spiritual birth of the Atonement.

Exactly. They only saw the physical temple.

These disciples thought it was done and over and Jesus was dead. If they did not even take Jesus at His word about His bodily temple, why would they think the Temple was heaven and earth? They were not gnostics.

Why would you imply they had thoughts about an idea that is not even mentioned once in Scripture? You gave a quote not to do that, and then turned around and implied something not found in the text.

A text cannot mean what it could never have meant for its original readers/hearers.” ― Gordon D. Fee

The reason I quoted Josephus is because he lived in the first century and the Jews of that day would have viewed the temple in the same way he would. Those living in that time period would have seen the temple as a representation of heaven and earth.

 

[JosephZ]

Jesus said it was finished on the Cross. God rent the veil from top to bottom on the Cross. I will take God's Word over human understanding.

So you agree then that heaven and earth have passed away.

For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is fulfilled. (Matthew 5:18)

 

[jgr]

and Jesus didn't return
so there's still something to watch for.
stop disconnecting things that Jesus connected.

The Judean Christians saw everything that Jesus warned them to watch for, acted upon it, and preserved their lives.

Thankfully none of them was a dispensational futurist.

Stop imposing futurist fallacy on Jesus' discourse.

 

[Timtofly]

Don't rush the process. Yeast develops silently and invisibly, and very slowly over time. But it is an inexorable, inevitable process over which God is in perfect control.

How can those after 6,000 years of sin, "rush the process"? Some claim the process was over 1900 years ago. Now that is "rushing the process".

 

[Timtofly]

Not at all. I can’t even fathom how you came to that conclusion.

Because you said the kingdom applies to all generations as a mustard seed growing.

 

[Hammster]

Do you take the parable as a parable or a literal fact? If it is not a parable, then you have a point. If it is a parable the "you" in the parable is not referring to the "you" the parable is being given to. No one is literally in a parable. Your point is moot if it is a parable, when it comes to the grammatical written word.

Now did Jesus claim every time what was a parable or was that a point only made in the written word. Should you differentiate between what you guess Jesus actually said or go by the written point it was a parable, that leaves no doubt? You have to remove the point it was a parable, and agree that Jesus was just given them a botany lesson, clearly meaning the "you" was the "you" understanding summer time. Then you would have to declare Matthew was wrong in calling it a parable.

It’s a parable because He says it is. It applies to them because He said it did. A parable is just a comparison. So here He’s comparing watching fruit trees to see when they will bloom with watching for the signs. It doesn’t have to be a story.

It was a clever try. I’ll give you that.

 

[Hammster]

This is brilliant reasoning.

Lol

no.

 

[Hammster]

and Jesus didn't return
so there's still something to watch for.
stop disconnecting things that Jesus connected.

Why do you think He needed to return?

 

[Hammster]

Because you said the kingdom applies to all generations as a mustard seed growing.

You’ll have to give me more than that. Try connecting the dots for me.

 

[Jamdoc]

Right. It was decreation language. And then rebuilding. Sun/moon/stars always represented leaders. So we have the old Jerusalem destroyed, and then the new Jerusalem. Hence “this generation”.

Nope, that veers into the "God exaggerates effects so badly that we can't even put trust into him" territory.

"I make all things new" just being "Christianity is the most popular religion" does not cut it. Neither does claiming this current world is without the curse.

 

[Jamdoc]

Why do you think He needed to return?

Because He said He would, and because when He returns that's when the wicked will be cast away forever and the world will be renewed, without the curse.
Until Jesus returns, all creation is cursed. It is also at His return that the resurrection takes place.

Without His return, what hope do we have except dying?