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Hammster

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Nope, that veers into the "God exaggerates effects so badly that we can't even put trust into him" territory.

"I make all things new" just being "Christianity is the most popular religion" does not cut it. Neither does claiming this current world is without the curse.
Here’s the quote from the OT.


For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light.
— Isaiah 13:10


Are you really sure you don’t want to trust Him?
 
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Hammster

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Because He said He would, and because when He returns that's when the wicked will be cast away forever and the world will be renewed, without the curse.
Until Jesus returns, all creation is cursed. It is also at His return that the resurrection takes place.

Without His return, what hope do we have except dying?
I get that. But why do you think His return is discussed in the OD?
 
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Jamdoc

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Here’s the quote from the OT.


For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light.
— Isaiah 13:10


Are you really sure you don’t want to trust Him?

If it truly is not a restoration of the world but just "Christianity becomes the most popular religion" then I wouldn't trust any exaggerated claim made.
Promising dramatic, delivering mundane
that's not God. That'd be a MANifestation if you take my meaning.
Muslims can force their prophecies to come true to the same degree, being the second largest religion and growing at a rate faster than Christianity, not to mention ISIS was the attempt to fulfill Islamic end times prophecy, the black banners are in a lot of Hadiths.

But instead, I trust that God will actually deliver on the promises, and not just in some internalized, allegorized, man manifested means like "see, Christianity is the most popular religion, this is the new earth Christ was talking about!", but actually restoring this Earth and removing the curse. There's no man manifested way of doing that, only God can do it, but that is what He has promised to do.

Revelation 22
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

That is not anything that is accomplished just by "the church is getting bigger" or "well the Day of the Lord was just the end of the old testament and replacing with the new testament church."
That's what I mean by internalizing or allegorizing, is basically just taking everything to mean "see the church is growing!"

That's not a satisfactory delivery of promises to end the curse on creation, or a satisfactory delivery of a resurrection of the body.

If that is satisfactory for you, then that is some extremely low expectations to have of God.
because man can grow a religion from the ground up to billions of followers. Islam is 1.6 billion, Hinduism 1.2 billion, Buddhism 500 million, all without the aid of God.
 
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Jamdoc

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I get that. But why do you think His return is discussed in the OD?

because it uses the same language as other texts involving the second coming, and is the passage where 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is taken from. Matthew 24-25 continues into parables describing things about the rapture and the second coming and final judgement.
 
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Hammster

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If it truly is not a restoration of the world but just "Christianity becomes the most popular religion" then I wouldn't trust any exaggerated claim made.
Promising dramatic, delivering mundane
that's not God. That'd be a MANifestation if you take my meaning.
Muslims can force their prophecies to come true to the same degree, being the second largest religion and growing at a rate faster than Christianity, not to mention ISIS was the attempt to fulfill Islamic end times prophecy, the black banners are in a lot of Hadiths.

But instead, I trust that God will actually deliver on the promises, and not just in some internalized, allegorized, man manifested means like "see, Christianity is the most popular religion, this is the new earth Christ was talking about!", but actually restoring this Earth and removing the curse. There's no man manifested way of doing that, only God can do it, but that is what He has promised to do.

Revelation 22


That is not anything that is accomplished just by "the church is getting bigger" or "well the Day of the Lord was just the end of the old testament and replacing with the new testament church."
That's what I mean by internalizing or allegorizing, is basically just taking everything to mean "see the church is growing!"

That's not a satisfactory delivery of promises to end the curse on creation, or a satisfactory delivery of a resurrection of the body.

If that is satisfactory for you, then that is some extremely low expectations to have of God.
because man can grow a religion from the ground up to billions of followers. Islam is 1.6 billion, Hinduism 1.2 billion, Buddhism 500 million, all without the aid of God.
You really veered of track there. Try again. Jesus quotes the OT. Did the sun go dark and the moon not give its light anywhere in the OT? Did the stars not flash? Or was this judgement language? If it was judgement language in the OT, it is judgement language in the NT.
 
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Hammster

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because it uses the same language as other texts involving the second coming, and is the passage where 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is taken from. Matthew 24-25 continues into parables describing things about the rapture and the second coming and final judgement.
You might want to actually compare Matthew 24 to 1 Thessalonians 4. It’s not the same language, as you claim.
 
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Timtofly

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Apparently St Gregory put the theme of three resurrections on a par with the millennium debate in his days, since he mentioned them in conjunction with each other. Whatever extent that millennium was debated would be on a level with the three resurrections idea, I would suppose. But the frequency or amount of debate about three resurrections is not really my point. What I'm saying is that I cannot possibly be the only one to whom this idea has occurred in all of church history, since it obviously was brought up for debate back in the AD 300's.
What Scripture is this even based on, or just a hunch doctrine? What Scripture was Gregory defending?
 
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Timtofly

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Why not answer the question?

How many WW2 Jews roasted and dined on their children?
How does any one know the amounts of cannibalism any where? You don't even have an answer for that question. Besides 70AD was not the only time Israelites resorted to cannibalism. So not sure why you think 70AD was that special.
 
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Timtofly

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Isaiah 65:20 mentions the existence of "sinners" that are "accursed" in this NHNE.

This is in regards to rebellious children. In the OT they were to stone them to death. In the future Millennium God will take their life.

The only sinners are dead ones. Also there is no natural death. If you do not end up as a rebel child punished with death, you will never die.

From start to finish in this Revelation 20 chapter, wickedness is being judged - both human and angelic.

Since Revelation 20 is not about the actual conditions of the Millennium, you cannot take what transpires prior to and after the Millennium as defining the Millennium. Isaiah 65 may be the only chapter that actually describes the Millennium itself. Satan is not around during the Millennium. At the end of the 1,000 years there will be billions under the age of 100.
 
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Jamdoc

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You really veered of track there. Try again. Jesus quotes the OT. Did the sun go dark and the moon not give its light anywhere in the OT? Did the stars not flash? Or was this judgement language? If it was judgement language in the OT, it is judgement language in the NT.

It's prophetic language in the OT, and it is all referring to the Day of the Lord, not past events.
 
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DavidPT

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It's prophetic language in the OT, and it is all referring to the Day of the Lord, not past events.


If that includes some of what is recorded in Isaiah 13, I for sure agree with you about that. I see a lot of that fitting the 6th seal events, where Matthew 24 places it immediately after the trib of those days.
 
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Jamdoc

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You might want to actually compare Matthew 24 to 1 Thessalonians 4. It’s not the same language, as you claim.

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Matthew 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

In keeping with progressive revelation in scripture, additional details are included from Paul, but the core message comes from the OD, talking about the return of Jesus coming with the clouds down to Earth, the trumpet being sounded, and the Elect being gathered, Paul adds the details of the shout, and the Archangel, and that it also specifically involves the resurrection.
 
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Jamdoc

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If that includes some of what is recorded in Isaiah 13, I for sure agree with you about that. I see a lot of that fitting the 6th seal events, where Matthew 24 places it immediately after the trib of those days.

Correct. The 6th seal marks the end of the Great Tribulation, and the beginning of the Day of the Lord. Revelation isn't in Chronological order, and I suppose Pre Wrath and Post Trib differ in how many times events are repeated, but generally can see that the 6th seal marks the second coming, and that Revelation 13 takes place before it, and Revelation 14 is the same event as the 6th seal.

It's just Pre Wrath will see Revelation 11 and 16 and 19 as a different event (but the same between those 3), where Post Trib will see all 5 instances as being the same thing and will call the wrath of God "tribulation" where Pre Wrath makes a hard distinction between Tribulation (persecution caused by men), and the Wrath of God.

But it is distinct, that the sun and moon darken immediately after the Great Tribulation, and that occurs at the 6th seal.
and that is.. the part where partial preterists fail.. the "immediately after" part. they either have to allegorize it as Hammster does to claim that the sun and moon darkening is some symbol of the end of the Old Testament, rather than a sign of the return of Jesus, or they have to claim the Great Tribulation has been the entire past 2000 years, which disregards Jesus' statement about it being all fulfilled within 1 generation.
 
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sovereigngrace

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The Law was to remain until all is fulfilled.

For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is fulfilled. (Matthew 5:18)

Does sin continue today?
Does dying continue today?
Does crying continue today?
Does pain continue today?
Does sorrow continue today?
Does the curse continue today?
Are we still not living in an "evil age" today?
Do people still marry today?
When does incorruption arrive?
Is "the bondage of corruption" removed from the creature and creation at the moment?

· The second coming has not occurred.
· The glorification of the elect has not occurred.
· The end of the age has not occurred.
· The last day has not occurred.
· The old corrupt earth is still here.
· Creation has not been delivered from the bondage of corruption.
· The age to come has not arrived in all its perfect glory.
· The new heavens and new earth have not arrived.

Notice in the verse you quoted it said "is ready to vanish away" meaning it had not occurred just yet.

The New Covenant didn't come into being instantly and the temple system was still in operation for Jewish believers from the period 30AD to 70AD (40 years). the Jews were born into the Law, therefore they had to continue to follow the Law. This did not apply to the gentiles as they were never under the Law.

A corpse does not normally vanish from sight immediately upon death until it is put into the grave and buried. But corruption, decay, degeneration has already kicked in. It is lifeless. It is powerless. It simply needs a decent burial. That is how the old covenant was between AD30 and AD70. A corpse can still be visible but it is lifeless and has no ability to function. That is what happened to the old covenant between AD30-70.

Even though a corpse may look asleep, it is lifeless. All you have is rotting flesh. Decomposition has set in immediately. It is gradually decaying, and will ultimately vanish away. But that entity has no further earthly use. Its time is up.

Preterists can do their best to beautify this deceased corpse, they can try their best to raise its lifeless carcass from the dead, and they can attribute life to it all they want, but it is all in vain, it is still absolutely and totally deceased.

By calling this covenant “new,” Jesus rendered the first covenant obsolete. What is more, what was rotting, obsolete and outdated was soon to disappear with the destruction of the Jewish temple.

God allowed the Jews who remained under the law time to repent, in hope that they would choose Christ.

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

Just as the Israelites wandered in the wilderness for 40 years, so did those living in the 40 years from the time of the Resurrection to the destruction of the temple. Those who refused to believe in God’s Word failed to inherit His promise.

Jesus taught the continuation of offering of sacrifices at the temple.

Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. (Matthew 5:23-24)

The Christian believers in Jerusalem were eagerly observing the law.

When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers received us warmly. The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: "You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. (Acts 21:17-20)

The ministry of Jesus and the twelve disciples was exclusively to the Jews.

"These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 10:5-6)

And this mission to the Jews continued for several years after the resurrection of Jesus as can be seen in the Book of Acts.

"Now those who had been scattered by the persecution that broke out when Stephen was killed traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus and Antioch, spreading the word only among Jews." And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. (Acts 8:1)

Paul received the mystery of salvation through grace after meeting the resurrected Jesus on the road to Damascus where the risen Lord appeared to him.

"As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked. “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.” (Acts 9:3-6)

“Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead” (Galatians 1:1)

“I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.” (Galatians 1:11-12)

This proves nothing! It does not say what you are saying.

The Law was still being taught by Jewish believers.

“Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, ‘Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.’” (Acts 15:1)

“Some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.” (Acts 15:5)

At first there was disagreement among the apostles between what Paul was teaching and what they were. This debate can be found in Acts 15 (The Council at Jerusalem), but in the end it was agreed that the Gentiles were free from the requirements of the of the Law for salvation. It was also decided that Paul and the others would minister to the gentiles and Peter and the apostles would continue their ministry among the Jews.

“The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter. After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, ‘Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.’” (Acts 15:6-11)

The council came to agreement that both Jews and Gentiles are saved through the same process, through the grace of God, and Paul refers back to this debate in Galatians.

“On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised (gentiles), just as Peter had been to the circumcised(Jews). For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles. James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised.” (Galatians 2:7-9)

As can be seen there was a gradual transformation between the New and the Old. The Old Covenant and New ran parallel to one another until the temple was destroyed.

The Old Testament Jew saw the unfolding of God’s plan always as Jerusalem as the epi-center, but they struggled to see the seismic change from the earthly to the heavenly, the temporal to the eternal, the outward to the inward, the physical to the spiritual. When the heavenly man came the heavenly took over from the earthly as the focus.

Did the Jews of Jesus’ day understand the prophesies in the Old Testament? No, they got them badly wrong. If they had, they would have recognized Jesus for who he was.

The Old Testament prophesies cannot be fully understood without starting with the light of the New Testament. Otherwise one will typically make the same mistake the Jews made – putting their hope in some political conquering king messiah who rules with an iron fist.

Jesus taught the opposite. God’s kingdom is not of this earth and our relationship with God is through grace and love, not sacrifices at the alter and legalism.

On the road to Emmaus Jesus had to explain how to interpret the Old Testament prophesies in light of the truth He revealed. This must have been quite a revelation! It’s too bad we don’t have an epistle of everything Jesus said as they walked; we probably wouldn’t be having this discussion.

Jesus said “It is finished!” and so it is. With His revelation we can go back to try to find meaning in the Old Testament prophesies. If we come up with something that conflicts with the New Testament, do we throw away the New Testament? No, we look again. Prophesy is best understood by starting with the clearest, least metaphorical, least obscure verses in the epistles and Gospels. Not the other way around.

The Rev Grier says it well in his book The Momentous Event: “If they heralded the glories of Christ’s people not under the figures of the land, the temple, and the sacrifices, but in the richness and fulness of the New Testament language, it would have meant nothing and conveyed nothing to the Old Testament saints. They could not have borne excessive light. Let us remember that when Christ did come, it was difficult even for His chosen disciples to understand, and that He said to them, ‘I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now’. Only by things known, such as land, the temple, and the sacrifices, could the prophets picture the unknown.”

Remember the Old Testament passage were written hundreds of years before Christ, at a time when the Judaic sacrificial system was actively in place. We cannot ignore the fact that these prophecies were made within the oblique confines of the old covenant set-up. Natural Jerusalem was still the centre of global worship to the king of glory. Israel still represented the totality of God’s relationship with mankind, Judah being the privileged tribe. Elaborate religious ceremonies were required to maintain a strong relationship with Jehovah God. It must have been very hard for the Old Testament prophets to comprehend the great New Testament revelation of the Gentiles being brought into an equal relationship with God under a completely new arrangement. It must have been even harder to put it into comprehendible vocabulary.

When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
(Hebrews 8:13)

The temple, the sacrificial system, and the priesthood, were done away in 70AD and the Jews could no longer look to them for redemption or atonement. From that day forward forgiveness and mercy could only be found through Jesus Christ and His work on the cross alone.

Paul shows us that the old covenant was decaying and ready to vanish away after the cross. Of course, anything that is decaying is already dead. From then on it is just rotting and in urgent need of a decent burial.

All authorities concur in the declaration that “when all these things should have been done”, ‘The End’ should come: that “the mystery of God should be finished as he had declared to His servants the prophets“: it should be completed: time should now be no more: the End of all things (so foretold) should be at hand, and be fully brought to pass: in these days should be fulfilled all that had been spoken of Christ (and of His church) by the prophets: or, in other words, when the gospel should have been preached in all the world for a testimony to all nations, and the power of the Holy People be scattered (abroad), then should the End come, then should all these things be finished. I need now only say, all these things have been done: the old and elementary system passed away with a great noise; all these predicted empires have actually fallen, and the new kingdom, the new heaven and earth, the new Jerusalem–all of which were to descend from God, to be formed by His power, have been realised on earth; all these things have been done in the sight of all the nations; God’s holy arm has been made bare in their sight: His judgments have prevailed, and they remain for an everlasting testimony to the whole world. His kingdom has come, as it was foretold it should, and His will has, so far, been done; His purposes have been finished. --

This is a spurious quote circulated by Preterists to support their questionable beliefs. It is taken from notes written during the translation of the works of Eusebius by Samuel Lee. Why do Preterists just accept what they are taught? Why do they not check these things out before promoting them?
 
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DavidPT

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It's just Pre Wrath will see Revelation 11 and 16 and 19 as a different event (but the same between those 3), where Post Trib will see all 5 instances as being the same thing and will call the wrath of God "tribulation" where Pre Wrath makes a hard distinction between Tribulation (persecution caused by men), and the Wrath of God.


I can't speak for other Post Tribbers, but I don't confuse God's wrath with tribulation. God's wrath follows tribulation. The way I look at it, and maybe you look at it differently, I don't know,, any coming of Christ post that of the trib of those days, that qualifies as Post Trib. The way the text reads to me, first there is the trib of those days, then there is the 6th seal events, where I take that to involve the vials of wrath. Then there is the sign of the Son of man in heaven, followed by His coming, which appears to mean 3 events precede His coming per this scenario. That being, the trib of those days, the 6th seal events, and the sign of the Son of man in heaven. That seems to fit with what is recorded in Revelation 16, where the following verse is sandwhiched between the 6th and 7th vial, which gives the impression that His bodily coming hasn't occurred as of yet, at least not as of the 6th vial.

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

If the coming already happened earlier in time, why did John place this verse where he did? This gives the impression, that as of this point in time, this coming hasn't happened yet.
 
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jgr

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How does any one know the amounts of cannibalism any where? You don't even have an answer for that question. Besides 70AD was not the only time Israelites resorted to cannibalism. So not sure why you think 70AD was that special.

Josephus records cannibalism among Jews in 70 AD.

You claim that WW2 was worse than 70 AD, but there are no records of cannibalism among Jews during WW2.

So 70 AD was "special" in rebutting your claim.
 
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Timtofly

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Are you sure? It seems to me that the resurrection was pretty important.
Where is a resurrection required in the OT Law?

Besides there was a physical bodily resurrection at the Cross. Matthew 27:51-53

"And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."
 
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Jamdoc

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I can't speak for other Post Tribbers, but I don't confuse God's wrath with tribulation. God's wrath follows tribulation. The way I look at it, and maybe you look at it differently, I don't know,, any coming of Christ post that of the trib of those days, that qualifies as Post Trib. The way the text reads to me, first there is the trib of those days, then there is the 6th seal events, where I take that to involve the vials of wrath. Then there is the sign of the Son of man in heaven, followed by His coming, which appears to mean 3 events precede His coming per this scenario. That being, the trib of those days, the 6th seal events, and the sign of the Son of man in heaven. That seems to fit with what is recorded in Revelation 16, where the following verse is sandwhiched between the 6th and 7th vial, which gives the impression that His bodily coming hasn't occurred as of yet, at least not as of the 6th vial.

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

If the coming already happened earlier in time, why did John place this verse where he did? This gives the impression, that as of this point in time, this coming hasn't happened yet.

I can possibly see how you'd come to that. I tend to look at it as the 6th seal involves the rapture, followed by the trumpets and vials, then Armageddon. The reason being that in Revelation 19 when you have Armageddon, you have the wedding supper of the lamb, followed by heaven opening up and the armies of heaven (wearing white robes like the saints/bride of Christ) following Jesus. Which I take to mean those who'd been resurrected/raptured earlier.
I suppose you'd see them as the souls of the dead in Christ coming back to be reunited with their bodies, but the text isn't explicit either way so it's a matter of interpretation.
Pre-wrath is kind of itself shorthand but the full name of it is Post-trib, Pre-wrath. So you are right, it is a form of post-trib, it just delineates that those in Christ will not go through the trumpets and vials.
 
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JosephZ

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Does sin continue today?
Does dying continue today?
Does crying continue today?
Does pain continue today?
Does sorrow continue today?
Does the curse continue today?
Are we still not living in an "evil age" today?
Do people still marry today?
When does incorruption arrive?
Is "the bondage of corruption" removed from the creature and creation at the moment?
Has heaven and earth passed away?
This proves nothing! It does not say what you are saying.
What does it say to you?
Jesus taught the opposite. God’s kingdom is not of this earth and our relationship with God is through grace and love, not sacrifices at the alter and legalism.
God had always dealt in grace, mercy, and love towards man; however, the Jews were born under the Law of Moses and the traditions of the Law had to be kept. Jesus' ministry was to Israel and His message to the Jews was that of keeping the traditions of the Law, repentance, water baptism, and belief that Jesus was the promised Messiah. His disciples continued to teach these things even after His assentation and as a result Jewish believers continued the traditions of the Law until the destruction of the temple.

It wasn't until the risen Lord appeared to Paul and revealed to him that it is by grace we are saved through faith.

“For by grace are ye saved through faith. And that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)

This is a spurious quote
What is your evidence of this?
 
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