Third temple being build in Jerusalem right now

[Timtofly]

He's talking about the rapture (if you're not so dogmatic that the rapture has to be pretrib so that you discard Matthew 24 as a Rapture passage)

Why are many so dogmatic that the Second Coming is post-trib? That is post the Second Coming. The Son of man is coming before the final harvest. Because the Son of man and the Lord of the harvest are both coming. That is why the trouble after the Second Coming is the most unprecedented. The Second Coming is after the tribulation of Those Days. What Days? The church has left the faith. The church has even left the earth. When those who let the Holy Spirit work in them are gone, then will there be the Son of Man and God on the throne. That is the 6th Seal in Revelation 6. Then the harvest and the 5th Trumpet has Satan opening the abyss during this final harvest. God on the throne and the Lamb and the 144k face Satan. Not the church. The church has been removed as Stewards. The church is not necessary because the Lord of the harvest has come. The day of God's vengeance on the unfaithful church. The church that teaches and preaches they can stand and remain to face God, even though the faithful church has been removed, because the Second Coming is the event that starts the unprecedented period of GT.

 

[Victor in Christ]

This was also taken by my dad's friend, who is a Christian, in Jerusalem today. Take whatever you will of this. Maybe it's being build.

take no heed of any construction work/pictures in Jerusalem. It diverts your attention away from Christ and the heavenly Jerusalem that will come down from heaven, not made with hands. Revelation 21. you could look at Ezekiel and Isaiah if you wish, but keep in mind they had incomplete visions of Heaven, even though they are considered to be the major prophets of the OT.

 

[Timtofly]

There will be no Christians left here on Earth when Christ returns. Therefore pre-tribulation rapture has to take place. Also, there is no way Jesus will leave His Bride to antichrist. For God is a jealous God, He will not let anyone else have His Bride.

It is not just being caught up. The Lord of the vineyard and the Lamb are going to come to earth for the final harvest. The Trumpets and Thunders are the final harvest of the sheep and the wheat. The goats and tares are going to be placed in Death, the rider of the pale horse. Sheol (hell) has been prepared since the days of Noah. Just like Noah's day, Death is the new place of the soul, after one's name has been removed from the Lamb's book of life. Once the 7th Seal is opened, names will be removed, and Grace will be complete. The church will be complete and in Paradise. Then the final harvest will begin. After the harvest, any left overs will be given to Satan to glean for 42 months.

 

[Victor in Christ]

It is not just being caught up. The Lord of the vineyard and the Lamb are going to come to earth for the final harvest. The Trumpets and Thunders are the final harvest of the sheep and the wheat. The goats and tares are going to be placed in Death, the rider of the pale horse. Sheol (hell) has been prepared since the days of Noah. Just like Noah's day, Death is the new place of the soul, after one's name has been removed from the Lamb's book of life. Once the 7th Seal is opened, names will be removed, and Grace will be complete. The church will be complete and in Paradise. Then the final harvest will begin. After the harvest, any left overs will be given to Satan to glean for 42 months.

sorry to nitpick Timofly, but the names of the Saint's are written in the book of life from the beginning of time.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

5th seal has the martyrs asking how long do they have to wait for God's wrath to start.

I actually believe that these are only the Martyr's killed by the antichrist. Let's look at the 5th seal again. Rev. 6:9 'When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

No one who is full of the Holy Spirit doesn't ask God to avenge their blood. Acts 7:59 'And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not charge them with this sin.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.'

Why would Stephen before they kill him, ask God to forgive his murderer's, and the in Heaven, after seeing Jesus in full glory, change his mind, and ask God to avenge him? He wouldn't.

As we can see in 2 Thess. 7 'For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.' The Holy Spirit is restraining the antichrist from being revealed. The Holy Spirit will be removed and the Christians who love the Lord first, will be removed with Him. For the Holy Spirit came for the Church, and He will left with the Church. That's when the antichrist get's revealed, that's when the great tribulation starts, that's why is says in Luke 21:36 that we watch and pray that we are worth to escape it all, not just part, or half, but all of it. Millions will suddenly disappear, can you imagine the pain and suffering of their loved ones? That's how it all starts.

Matthew 25 supports this
“Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.
6 “And at midnight a cry was heard: ‘Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!’ 7 Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’ 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut.
11 “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ 12 But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’
13 “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

The Oil in the lamp is the Holy Spirit, it is the love for Jesus. 'I never knew you' actually means, I never seen any light you in, you don't have the light I don't know you. BUT the first verse says that both the wise and the foolish are in Heaven, therefore those Christians who love first depart with the spirit, and the foolish ones, who didn't prepare themselves, who still love this world are left behind to experience the great tribulation, for the last chance to repent. This is the mertyr's who ask God for vengeance, because they did not have the Holy Spirit (oil). They were given the chance to take the mark and bow down to antichrist which would result in them surviving but losing their soul, or resist the antichrist and get killed because of it, because they finally chose Jesus before their life, for which they get killed but they still go to Heaven

Therefore the rapture has to take place before the 5th seal is open. And it has to happen before the 4th seal is open too 7 When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come and see.” 8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

This is the rule of antichrist, this is where it starts. But because it says the Holy Spirit has to be removed, the rapture takes place before this seal, before the reign of antichrist.

 

[Jamdoc]

I actually believe that these are only the Martyr's killed by the antichrist. Let's look at the 5th seal again. Rev. 6:9 'When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

No one who is full of the Holy Spirit doesn't ask God to avenge their blood. Acts 7:59 'And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not charge them with this sin.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.'

Why would Stephen before they kill him, ask God to forgive his murderer's, and the in Heaven, after seeing Jesus in full glory, change his mind, and ask God to avenge him? He wouldn't.

As we can see in 2 Thess. 7 'For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.' The Holy Spirit is restraining the antichrist from being revealed. The Holy Spirit will be removed and the Christians who love the Lord first, will be removed with Him. For the Holy Spirit came for the Church, and He will left with the Church. That's when the antichrist get's revealed, that's when the great tribulation starts, that's why is says in Luke 21:36 that we watch and pray that we are worth to escape it all, not just part, or half, but all of it. Millions will suddenly disappear, can you imagine the pain and suffering of their loved ones? That's how it all starts.

Matthew 25 supports this
“Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.
6 “And at midnight a cry was heard: ‘Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!’ 7 Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’ 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut.
11 “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ 12 But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’
13 “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

The Oil in the lamp is the Holy Spirit, it is the love for Jesus. 'I never knew you' actually means, I never seen any light you in, you don't have the light I don't know you. BUT the first verse says that both the wise and the foolish are in Heaven, therefore those Christians who love first depart with the spirit, and the foolish ones, who didn't prepare themselves, who still love this world are left behind to experience the great tribulation, for the last chance to repent. This is the mertyr's who ask God for vengeance, because they did not have the Holy Spirit (oil). They were given the chance to take the mark and bow down to antichrist which would result in them surviving but losing their soul, or resist the antichrist and get killed because of it, because they finally chose Jesus before their life, for which they get killed but they still go to Heaven

Therefore the rapture has to take place before the 5th seal is open. And it has to happen before the 4th seal is open too 7 When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come and see.” 8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

This is the rule of antichrist, this is where it starts. But because it says the Holy Spirit has to be removed, the rapture takes place before this seal, before the reign of antichrist.

They are martyrs killed by the Antichrist, but they are still sealed with the Holy Spirit. They are in Heaven after all.
They ask for God to deliver judgement on the world and avenge Him because that is God's will. To avenge them and judge the world.
God is as much a God of judgement and wrath and war as He is a God of grace and love and peace.

Note these martyred saints are not rebuked for asking when He'll pour out His wrath on the Earth, they are told to wait a little while. The Saints are in line with God's Will, they are just less patient than God.

There are 2 considerations I have for you.

1. The dogmatic belief that the rapture must happen before the tribulations causes you to discard scripture and dismiss it as having anything to do with the rapture. You should form your doctrine based on the whole counsel of God rather than trying to take single verses out of context.
You guys like to use the first part of Matthew 24 for rapture timing but discard verses 29-31 that actually show it happening.
If you take those verses as rapture verses complete with the signs just before it (darkening of the sun and moon), you can complete the picture in Revelation 6:12-17, and get a second view of it in Revelation 14:14-20 (the first harvest is done by Jesus in the clouds, and is not put through the wrath of God (they are caught up in the clouds), the second harvest is done by an angel and they are the clusters of the vine of the earth (earth dwellers, worldly people) and they ARE put through the wrath of God)
It is one thing to have a doctrine of a rapture, it is another thing to see it, with clarity, in the Word of God itself.
Because I actually see the rapture in God's word, with timing that is consistent with Isaiah 26, Daniel 12, the Olivet Discourse, the Letters to the Thessalonians, and Revelation... I can't see the rapture happening at any other time,
It is after the Great Tribulations but just before the Wrath of God.
it holds consistent with all scripture that we WILL face tribulation, heeds the warnings about the Antichrist (why warn about the Antichrist to Christians in letters to the Thessalonians, and John's letters if they won't ever be there to see them? These letters are not to convert unbelievers they are written to believers, and they are warnings), but also is consistent that we will not be subject to the Wrath of God.
Pre trib disregards the warnings and disregards the affirmation that we will face persecution from the world.
Post trib disregards the promise that we are not subject to the Wrath of God.

2. When you are dogmatic about this doctrine, you in fact create a "second class citizen" of Heaven. There is disdain for the "tribulation saints" you guys puff yourselves up and compare yourselves favorably to people who love Jesus so much they lay down their lives for their faith in Him. There is no second class. We are all one in Christ Jesus, that includes old testament saints too.

 

[Jipsah]

A generation is 20 years. Where do you get 40?

Being generous. So if it's 20 years, almost 4 generations have passed since 1947, and 2 and a half since 1967. A bit better with 30, one 2 from 1947 and only one from '67. Still kinda sinks the "this generation.." clock starting in one of those years.

A generation does not pass until the last one dies. That could be over 110 years in today's lifestyle.

That's certainly handy. Gives you a few more years before your doctrine turns into a pumpkin.

 

[Jipsah]

Why do you need to define it?

I dunno, I always kind of figured that if you're going to use a word you really ought to have some idea what it means.

Do you deny God's Word as it applies to your own life?

No. Have you stopped beating your wife?

 

[Jipsah]

This should be applied to the AC as well. Claiming an AC is here or there is the exact same thing, Jesus warns about. Saying Nero was an AC is claiming a false messiah, and doing exactly what Jesus said not to do.

Looks like you went upside St. John's head with that one: 18Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

 

[Timtofly]

sorry to nitpick Timofly, but the names of the Saint's are written in the book of life from the beginning of time.

Sorry, but all of humanity was written in the Lamb's book of life before Creation. Those who chose to remove themselves can freely do so.

 

[Timtofly]

I actually believe that these are only the Martyr's killed by the antichrist. Let's look at the 5th seal again. Rev. 6:9 'When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

No one who is full of the Holy Spirit doesn't ask God to avenge their blood. Acts 7:59 'And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not charge them with this sin.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.'

Why would Stephen before they kill him, ask God to forgive his murderer's, and the in Heaven, after seeing Jesus in full glory, change his mind, and ask God to avenge him? He wouldn't.

Matthew 23:32-39

32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.


Being full of the Holy Spirit at the time of death is one thing. Jesus claimed recompense when it comes to shed blood.

I would say the 5th Seal covers all from Abel until the last church martyr. After the 6th Seal, there will be no church martyrs. Those beheaded for not taking the mark are not martyrs for the sake of the Cross. They also never recieve a robe of white.

The 5th seal is the dead in Christ being glorified. The 5th and 6th Seal is Paul's rapture and Second coming when all are changed and glorified. The church is complete and presented to God at the 6th Seal. Faith is no longer enforce, but sight will be the end of faith. That is why all on earth will know they have received God's wrath. The are left behind and know it. They call for death, but death eludes them.

The parable of the wheat, and the parable of the sheep do not pertain to the church. They are those in direct contact with God and the Lamb and are the true elect of the harvest. The church was by faith, the sheep and wheat are by sight. This is a time of God's earthly work, not that of the Stewards.

Then during Satan's 42 months, after the harvest of the sheep and wheat, all those people are gone from the earth as well, only the gleanings are left. Those beheaded do so to avoid the mark and to keep their name in the Lamb's book of life. This is not being slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. They have no testimony nor God's Word. It is just a simple choice of worshipping Satan and being removed from the Lamb's book of life, or getting your head cut off. It is the last effort to save one's eternal soul from the lake of fire. The only reward is to live in an incorruptible body on earth. No where does it ever say those beheaded are glorified or part of the church.

The people in the 5th Seal are those who lived from Abel (who was the first to die) until the 5th Seal who were killed for the Word of God and their personal testimony. The 5th Seal is the end of Abel's faithful testimony. Abel will receive a robe of white and glorified. They already have had incorruptible bodies in Paradise since the Cross. The 5th Seal is proof the dead in Christ are already in Paradise in incorruptible bodies just waiting for the robe of white, and being glorified. The 5th seal is the change from mortal to immortality. The first resurrection at the Cross, in Christ, was from a corruptible to an incorruptible body. The first resurrection is a type (physical) not a when. The Second birth, joining of our spirit, is the robe of white event as portrayed to a type of death (spiritual). Crucifying one's flesh daily is a spiritual type. "Being slain" is the term, and most interpret martyrs. The flesh of Adam being slain because of or for the Word of God should be a daily habit. There is no vengeance for self denial. However those who choose self over God will receive the recompense in the Lake of Fire. Vengeance goes both ways.

Those who kill others for their testimony have already crossed a line. There is the act of stoning, but only when one has no sin in their own life. The act of getting rid of heresy runs amuck, because once one gets the power of punishment with sin in their own life worthy of death, it is no longer about heresy, but power and even covering up one's own sin by getting rid of the competition. Death was never the end means, heresy was to be given over to God to deal with. Not a means to promote one's own heresy and get rid of any one who spoke out against it. As pointed out, the stoning of Stephen is the prime example of how not to get rid of heresy. That is why Stephen could forgive them like Jesus did on His Cross. Like many martyrs who forgave their killers, because the truth was snuffed out. The heresy was doing the killing that day, and needed forgiveness. That is what Jesus taught in Matthew 23.

 

[Hammster]

Sorry, but all of humanity was written in the Lamb's book of life before Creation. Those who chose to remove themselves can freely do so.

No they can’t.

 

[Timtofly]

Being generous. So if it's 20 years, almost 4 generations have passed since 1947, and 2 and a half since 1967. A bit better with 30, one 2 from 1947 and only one from '67. Still kinda sinks the "this generation.." clock starting in one of those years.

That's certainly handy. Gives you a few more years before your doctrine turns into a pumpkin.

This is not a fixed time issue at all. Why make it one? Jesus did not know the time of the Second Coming. Why would you claim Jesus is padding time to prevent the pumpkin? If a few people born in the 1940s live to be a 130, are you going to blame God you did not live to be 70?

It is not about passing dozens of generations. It is about a few living to see God's complete work from one point of time to another.

 

[Timtofly]

I dunno, I always kind of figured that if you're going to use a word you really ought to have some idea what it means.

The definition has not changed in the last 5990 years. Should it constantly change to confuse us?

 

[Timtofly]

Looks like you went upside St. John's head with that one: 18Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Is the number of antichrists limited to just a few chosen humans?

 

[Timtofly]

No they can’t.

Yes they can. God is not a universalist when it comes to rejecting God's Atonement. Rejecting God's Atonement is the only way to remove one's name from the Lamb's book of life.

God is not going to remove those who accept God's Atonement. Can a name be removed without a human having any knowledge at all?

Are you claiming one's will is stronger than God? Is God's will diminished, because the Atonement is a choice? God is not willing that any should Perish. That places all names in the Lamb's book of life. God's Atonement is a free gift. God's will can be rejected. Only a conscious choice of any human can remove their name from the Lamb's book of life. They have to have the full knowledge of their actions.

One cannot remove their name from the Lamb's book of life by FAITH. The acceptance of the Atonement is currently by faith, until the full knowledge of such a choice is known. Sin and wickedness can blure the lines when it comes to knowledge, yet some very smart and educated humans who think they know everything, after spending years in sheol can still choose to reject God, maintaining the stance of Satan, that their way is better than God's Will.

The point is the Lamb's book of life is still sealed. It has been sealed from the foundation of current creation in the mind of God. No name can be removed until after the church is complete and glorified. Moses could not remove his name, because not even God can remove names until the 7th Seal is opened. At that point God on the throne and the Lamb will be present on earth, because the Second Coming will have happened in the 5th and 6th Seal. No more FAITH. No more excuses.

 

[Hammster]

Yes they can. God is not a universalist when it comes to rejecting God's Atonement. Rejecting God's Atonement is the only way to remove one's name from the Lamb's book of life.

God is not going to remove those who accept God's Atonement. Can a name be removed without a human having any knowledge at all?

Are you claiming one's will is stronger than God? Is God's will diminished, because the Atonement is a choice? God is not willing that any should Perish. That places all names in the Lamb's book of life. God's Atonement is a free gift. God's will can be rejected. Only a conscious choice of any human can remove their name from the Lamb's book of life. They have to have the full knowledge of their actions.

One cannot remove their name from the Lamb's book of life by FAITH. The acceptance of the Atonement is currently by faith, until the full knowledge of such a choice is known. Sin and wickedness can blure the lines when it comes to knowledge, yet some very smart and educated humans who think they know everything, after spending years in sheol can still choose to reject God, maintaining the stance of Satan, that their way is better than God's Will.

The point is the Lamb's book of life is still sealed. It has been sealed from the foundation of current creation in the mind of God. No name can be removed until after the church is complete and glorified. Moses could not remove his name, because not even God can remove names until the 7th Seal is opened. At that point God on the throne and the Lamb will be present on earth, because the Second Coming will have happened in the 5th and 6th Seal. No more FAITH. No more excuses.

I’m saying that no one can remove their name from the Lamb’s book of life.

 

[lismore]

Israel wasn't back in their land for the past 2000 years. All these signs happened since Israel came back in 1948.
The return of Jews in the land of their fathers (Joel 3:1-2) ‘For behold, in those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem ..

That's true. Even though many denominations would disagree as to the exact significance of the return of Israel in 1948, given the importance of Israel in the bible 1948 must clearly have significance. I don't know how a Christian could say otherwise with a straight face. God Bless

 

[Hammster]

That's true. Even though many denominations would disagree as to the exact significance of the return of Israel in 1948, given the importance of Israel in the bible 1948 must clearly have significance. I don't know how a Christian could say otherwise with a straight face. God Bless

No significance at all.

 

[lismore]

No significance at all.

As J.C Lyle said 'Ignorance of the Scriptures is the root of all error'.