Third temple being build in Jerusalem right now

[Berean Tim]

Ah, fair enough. Then yes the Apostle does speak of the resurrection of the dead here. And on this I have erred.

But this doesn't address the matter of the abomination that causes desolation, which the Apostle does not mention.

I never claimed that the apostasy he mentions refers to "the Jews". Nor did I identify what the Apostle has said here with the events of the Jewish-Roman War.

What the Apostle means has always been a matter of much speculation. What temple does he mean? Does he mean the Temple that was soon destroyed not many years after he suffered martyrdom in Rome? Or does he mean the Temple of the Church? Not a few of the fathers understood this figure spoken about as a tyrant who would seek to overturn the Church from within. For this reason many of the Reformers identified the papacy of their day as what had been said before, and they do not say this by their own invention, but even the ancient fathers had said that one who comes claiming to be the universal pastor of the Church would be as Antichrist,

"I have however taken care to admonish earnestly the same my brother and fellow bishop that, if he desires to have peace and concord with all, he must refrain from the appellation of a foolish title. As to this, the piety of my lords has charged me in their orders, saying that offense ought not to be engendered among us for the appellation of a frivolous name. But I beseech your imperial Piety to consider that some frivolous things are very harmless, and others exceedingly harmful. Is it not the case that, when Antichrist comes and calls himself God, it will be very frivolous, and yet exceedingly pernicious? If we regard the quantity of the language used, there are but a few syllables; but if the weight of the wrong, there is universal disaster. Now I confidently say that whosoever calls himself, or desires to be called, Universal Priest, is in his elation the precursor of Antichrist, because he proudly puts himself above all others. Nor is it by dissimilar pride that he is led into error; for, as that perverse one wishes to appear as above all men, so whosoever this one is who covets being called sole priest, he extols himself above all other priests. But, since the Truth says, Every one that exalts himself shall be humbled, I know that every kind of elation is the sooner burst as it is the more inflated. Let then your Piety charge those who have fallen into an example of pride not to generate any offense by the appellation of a frivolous name. For I, a sinner, who by the help of God retain humility, need not to be admonished to humility. Now may Almighty God long guard the life of our most serene Lord for the peace of holy Church and the advantage of the Roman republic. For we are sure, that if you live who fear the Lord of heaven, you will allow no proud doings to prevail against the truth." - St. Gregory the Great, To Mauricius Augustus (Registry of Epistles, Book VII, Epistle 33)

Do I believe the modern pope is the Antichrist? Well no. But it's important to understand what has been said in the past and why.

-CryptoLutheran

I'm I wrong that you don't consider the events in Matthew 24 to have been done in 70AD ? Jesus prophecy's a "falling" away in the Olivet Discourse as does Paul in 2 Thess.

Rapture is just a Latin word used to translate harpazo (caught up). Paul is using gathering as Jesus used in Matt 24:31 "send his angels to "gather" his Elect (chosen). Whether this "gathering" is to heaven or someplace else we will forever be with Jesus, I'm cool with that.

Paul uses a word that means "holy place" not the usual rendering of Temple. John also uses this word in Revelation 11. IMO it is difficult to understand "taking his seat in the temple" to taking his seat or standing in a person. It would force a symbolic interpretation that's clearly not called for.

 

[Jamdoc]

1) How is it obvious that St. Paul is referring to the abomination?

2) The Apostle doesn't make any mention of a gathering of the elect here, he speaks of a falling away.

-CryptoLutheran

2 Thessalonians 2:1 establishes that the main thing Paul is talking about is the gathering of the elect.

 

[Jamdoc]

There's no such thing as "the rapture". St. Paul talks about the resurrection of the dead at Christ's coming, and the joining together of the living with them up to meet the Lord in the air as He returns, descending down here. But the idea of people being "raptured" into heaven is wholesale poppycock.

If by "rapture" all is meant is the catching up to meet the returning Lord, that's one thing. But "rapture" is almost always used by proponents who argue that Jesus is going to beam people directly into heaven, a thing Scripture never mentions, and which the Christian Church has never believed.

-CryptoLutheran

Yes, that is what I mean, the return of Jesus in the clouds, the resurrection of the dead in Christ, and the alive being caught up (rapturo/harpazo) into the air.
It's not secret, it's not "of the church" (because old testament saints will also be in it) and it's not pretribulational.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Some more research into this.
1. Israel has begun preparatory work to strengthen the Western Wall, which is needed to build a restored temple:
Renovation work is completed at Jerusalem’s Western Wall

2. The President of the official Palestinian Authority has asked the international community to stop work on the restoration of the temple, which includes the demolition of the existing mosque:
PA warns: Israel planning to build a Holy Temple

3. Subsequently, the International Court of Justice accused Israel of war crimes, it happened 4 days ago
ICC rules it has jurisdiction to probe war crimes against Israelis

I cannot 100% confirm this of course, I'm just saying it's quite possible, they started to build the third temple now.

 

[Jamdoc]

Some more research into this.
1. Israel has begun preparatory work to strengthen the Western Wall, which is needed to build a restored temple:
Renovation work is completed at Jerusalem’s Western Wall

2. The President of the official Palestinian Authority has asked the international community to stop work on the restoration of the temple, which includes the demolition of the existing mosque:
PA warns: Israel planning to build a Holy Temple

3. Subsequently, the International Court of Justice accused Israel of war crimes, it happened 4 days ago
ICC rules it has jurisdiction to probe war crimes against Israelis

I cannot 100% confirm this of course, I'm just saying it's quite possible, they started to build the third temple now.

Good info, it did look like they were at the western wall site so that explains what was going on in the video.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Yes, that is what I mean, the return of Jesus in the clouds, the resurrection of the dead in Christ, and the alive being caught up (rapturo/harpazo) into the air.
It's not secret, it's not "of the church" (because old testament saints will also be in it) and it's not pretribulational.

'Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man' (Luke 21:36).

What should we be on watch for that we are worthy to escape and stand before the Son of Man?

Revelation 6:7 When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come and see.” 8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

The devil is coming. He is the final beast from Daniel 7:23 'And shall devour the whole earth, Trample it and break it in pieces.'

The 4th seal will be soon opened, and the pale horse will come to this world. And the rider's name is Death and Hades, and will kill one quarter of the Earth's population. And that is just the beginning of the Great Tribulation. Notice the name also Death and Hades, it means that the devil and satan are coming, and they will take over because the Light of the world was removed.

2 Thess. 2:7 'For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed'. Who is powerful enough that can restrain the antichrist, the man of lawlessness? The Holy Spirt, the Light of this world, will one day be removed from the world by God, so the antichrist can be revealed.

Another reason why I believe this will happen soon, because as the book of revelation in chapter 12 reveal to us that the devil will be thrown, there is a sign that appears in Heaven in Revelation 12:1. This sign appeared on 23rd of September 2017 (google it), on the feast of the trumpets. That means this will all happen soon, any day now.

When Jesus came 2000 years ago, He read from Isaiah 61 “The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me, Because the Lord has anointed Me To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives, And the opening of the prison to those who are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord,' and the He stopped, He has not finished that 2nd verse, but that verse continues And the day of vengeance of our God; Now is the acceptable year of the Lord, but when the Holy Spirit and the Christians full of the Holy Spirit will be removed from this world, Jesus will proclaim the day of vengeance of our God.

But for all of those who love Jesus will all their heart, there will be a solution: Revelation 3:10 'Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.'

Isaiah 26:20 Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past. 21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity. The earth will also disclose her blood, And will no more cover her slain.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

Rejoice Heavens who dwell in them, because satan has come to earth, and you were worthy enough to escape it all, but woe to the people who are left behind for the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.

Everyone who refuses the mark of the beast and refuse to bow to the image of the beast will be killed. Rev 13:15 'And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain.'

There will be no Christians left here on Earth when Christ returns. Therefore pre-tribulation rapture has to take place. Also, there is no way Jesus will leave His Bride to antichrist. For God is a jealous God, He will not let anyone else have His Bride.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Good info, it did look like they were at the western wall site so that explains what was going on in the video.

This was also taken by my dad's friend, who is a Christian, in Jerusalem today. Take whatever you will of this. Maybe it's being build.

 

[Hammster]

What should we be on watch for that we are worthy to escape and stand before the Son of Man?

Nothing. That’s not said to us.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Nothing. That’s not said to us.

And who is it for? Israel in 70 A.D. to escape burning of Israel? Did they escape? Yes. Did they stand before the Son of Man? No

The only way to escape and stand before Jesus is to go to Heaven?

Those who love Jesus first, won't be here during the great tribulation. Great Tribulation = wrath of God, Jesus drank of the cup of wrath for us, His Bride. He would never leave us to be here with antichrist. Besides, everyone who refuses the Mark of the Beast and bow to antichrist according to revelation 13:15 will be killed. Therefore, there will be no Christian left here on Earth when He returns.

 

[Berean Tim]

And who is it for? Israel in 70 A.D. to escape burning of Israel? Did they escape? Yes. Did they stand before the Son of Man? No

The only way to escape and stand before Jesus is to go to Heaven?

Those who love Jesus first, won't be here during the great tribulation. Great Tribulation = wrath of God, Jesus drank of the cup of wrath for us, His Bride. He would never leave us to be here with antichrist. Besides, everyone who refuses the Mark of the Beast and bow to antichrist according to revelation 13:15 will be killed. Therefore, there will be no Christian left here on Earth when He returns.

When does the wrath start ? I'm of the opinion its at the 6th Seal

Revelation 6: 16calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

 

[Hammster]

And who is it for? Israel in 70 A.D. to escape burning of Israel? Did they escape? Yes. Did they stand before the Son of Man? No

Yes, they have stood before him as none of them are still alive.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

When does the wrath start ? I'm of the opinion its at the 6th Seal

Revelation 6: 16calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

I believe it will happen between the 3rd and 4th seal, and I think the third seal has been oepned.

Revelation 6:7 When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come and see.” 8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

This is the antichrist, and as Paul says, the Holy Spirit is preventing him now to rule the world, however once the Holy Spirit is removed, the antichrist is revealed
2 Thess. 2:7 'For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed'. Who is powerful enough that can restrain the antichrist, the man of lawlessness? The Holy Spirt, the Light of this world, will one day be removed from the world by God, so the antichrist can be revealed.

When will the 4th seal be opened? Very soon. Why do I think this? Because I believe the third seal has been recently opened. Revelation 6:5 When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come and see.” So I looked, and behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. 6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine.” This means a huge economic crisis is coming and what is happening now? People are at home, all the tourism industry is closed, no travel, government gives us billions in furlough every day, the economy will soon collapse. Then if you notice 'do not harm the oil and the vine' oil is the Holy Spirit and Vine are the Jews, so the Christians filled with the Holy Spirit are still here.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Yes, they have stood before him as none of them are still alive.

1 million of Jews escaped. Doesn't say they all went to Heaven. Just as death comes without warning many times, we see here that the return of the Lord will be unexpected by the world. Even the Christians will not know the day or hour. "Watch and pray that ye may escape" has to do with the catching away of the Christians.

 

[Hammster]

1 million of Jews escaped. Doesn't say they all went to Heaven. Just as death comes without warning many times, we see here that the return of the Lord will be unexpected by the world. Even the Christians will not know the day or hour. "Watch and pray that ye may escape" has to do with the catching away of the Christians.

Everyone will stand before the Son of Man. Some stood victorious in Christ. Watch and pray was said to that audience for their benefit.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Everyone will stand before the Son of Man. Some stood victorious in Christ. Watch and pray was said to that audience for their benefit.

Everyone will stand of Him at the last day. But to be able to escape the great tribulation you have to be worthy to stand before the Son of Man.

Revelation 3:10 'Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.'

Isaiah 26:20 Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past. 21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity. The earth will also disclose her blood, And will no more cover her slain.

Matthew 24:40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.

Again, please tell me again how the Bride of Christ is here during the antichrist, when antichrist will kill everyone who refuses to take the mark and bow to the beast Rev 13:15 And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain.

Jesus would never ever allow that those who love Him first to experience the great tribulation.

 

[Hammster]

Jesus would never ever allow that those who love Him first to experience the great tribulation

That must be why He warned them in Matt 24 and in Revelation.

 

[Berean Tim]

I believe it will happen between the 3rd and 4th seal, and I think the third seal has been oepned.

Revelation 6:7 When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come and see.” 8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

This is the antichrist, and as Paul says, the Holy Spirit is preventing him now to rule the world, however once the Holy Spirit is removed, the antichrist is revealed
2 Thess. 2:7 'For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed'. Who is powerful enough that can restrain the antichrist, the man of lawlessness? The Holy Spirt, the Light of this world, will one day be removed from the world by God, so the antichrist can be revealed.

When will the 4th seal be opened? Very soon. Why do I think this? Because I believe the third seal has been recently opened. Revelation 6:5 When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come and see.” So I looked, and behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. 6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine.” This means a huge economic crisis is coming and what is happening now? People are at home, all the tourism industry is closed, no travel, government gives us billions in furlough every day, the economy will soon collapse. Then if you notice 'do not harm the oil and the vine' oil is the Holy Spirit and Vine are the Jews, so the Christians filled with the Holy Spirit are still here.

We're not too far off. If you ever want to run down some Greek, the phrase you posted "by the beasts of the earth" The word "by" is most often translated (under the authority of). Its an interesting word search

 

[Jamdoc]

I believe it will happen between the 3rd and 4th seal, and I think the third seal has been oepned.

Revelation 6:7 When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come and see.” 8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

This is the antichrist, and as Paul says, the Holy Spirit is preventing him now to rule the world, however once the Holy Spirit is removed, the antichrist is revealed
2 Thess. 2:7 'For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed'. Who is powerful enough that can restrain the antichrist, the man of lawlessness? The Holy Spirt, the Light of this world, will one day be removed from the world by God, so the antichrist can be revealed.

When will the 4th seal be opened? Very soon. Why do I think this? Because I believe the third seal has been recently opened. Revelation 6:5 When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come and see.” So I looked, and behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. 6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine.” This means a huge economic crisis is coming and what is happening now? People are at home, all the tourism industry is closed, no travel, government gives us billions in furlough every day, the economy will soon collapse. Then if you notice 'do not harm the oil and the vine' oil is the Holy Spirit and Vine are the Jews, so the Christians filled with the Holy Spirit are still here.

The wrath is declared to start at Revelation 6:17. It is clear as day that the wrath has NOT started before because the 5th seal has the martyrs asking how long do they have to wait for God's wrath to start.
Revelation 6:9-11.

Also considering the first 5 seals to be the wrath of God.. means God's wrath is on His own people... who are not appointed to wrath.

and that is the principle difference that pre tribulation folk do not understand.
They see the entire 70th week as "the 7 year tribulation" but Jesus Himself in Matthew 24, only says the Great Tribulations begin after the Abomination of Desolation that happens at the midpoint.

So.. Jesus gives a bunch of signs leading up to the midpoint, that correspond with the first 4 seals, then the abomination of desolation, and that is said to be something that His DISCIPLES, who are the first Christians were to watch for (Jesus knew the signs, He did not know the exact year, only the Father knows that, and it's profitable for us to live as if Jesus could come back in our generation every generation so.. that's all the info we get). I do tire of people saying that Matthew 24 doesn't apply to the church, and then they use bits and pieces of it to fit into their rapture scheme while discarding the actual rapture language of verses 29-31.
You put your doctrine before the Word of God and discard the Word of God when it is inconvenient to your doctrine, rather than reading the Word of God and FORMING your doctrine exegetically from it.

After the Abomination of Desolation is the Great Tribulations, which is NOT the same as the wrath of God. It is persecution by the world. They can at most last 42 months, but they will be cut short for the Elect's sake.

Note that in Matthew 24 Jesus does not mention any of the judgements from the trumpets or bowls or anything that remotely sounds like them.
The reason why?
Because He comes back before then.

It's like pieces of a puzzle and they fit together perfectly, between Matthew 24, The epistles to the Thessalonians, and Revelation 6

 

[ViaCrucis]

Everyone will stand of Him at the last day. But to be able to escape the great tribulation you have to be worthy to stand before the Son of Man.

Revelation 3:10 'Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.'

So when did Jesus return and take the Philadelphians into heaven to escape a great tribulation? Because the people this was said to have been gone for a really long time. So if this was about taking them away from the earth and into heaven, then when did that happen?

Isaiah 26:20 Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past. 21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity. The earth will also disclose her blood, And will no more cover her slain.

Matthew 24:40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.

Yes, when Christ returns He comes as Judge of the living and the dead. In the same way that the flood came and took the wicked away, so shall the coming of the Lord be on that great day.

"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2 Peter 3:10

Again, please tell me again how the Bride of Christ is here during the antichrist, when antichrist will kill everyone who refuses to take the mark and bow to the beast Rev 13:15 And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain.

The mark has nothing to do with "the end times". In times of persecution simple things like buying and selling were difficult; and in fact in one instance this was quite literal. Under the Decian persecutions it was required that all subjects of the Roman Empire prove their loyalty by offering sacrifice to the gods and pledge allegiance to Caesar, those who did this received a libellus, a certificate of loyalty.

The mark of the Beast represents allegiance to the Beast, in the same way that God marked His people with His Torah in the Old Covenant, and which all God's people are marked and sealed as His own even now. One can confess that Caesar is lord, or one can confess that Christ is Lord--but one cannot do both.

Jesus would never ever allow that those who love Him first to experience the great tribulation.

Tell that to the millions of martyrs who have spilled their blood for Christ's sake. To say such things insults the names and memory of the precious saints of Jesus Christ.

Read this. Read all of it.

"Why need we mention the rest by name, or number the multitude of the men, or picture the various sufferings of the admirable martyrs of Christ? Some of them were slain with the axe, as in Arabia. The limbs of some were broken, as in Cappadocia. Some, raised on high by the feet, with their heads down, while a gentle fire burned beneath them, were suffocated by the smoke which arose from the burning wood, as was done in Mesopotamia. Others were mutilated by cutting off their noses and ears and hands, and cutting to pieces the other members and parts of their bodies, as in Alexandria.

Why need we revive the recollection of those in Antioch who were roasted on grates, not so as to kill them, but so as to subject them to a lingering punishment? Or of others who preferred to thrust their right hand into the fire rather than touch the impious sacrifice? Some, shrinking from the trial, rather than be taken and fall into the hands of their enemies, threw themselves from lofty houses, considering death preferable to the cruelty of the impious.

A certain holy person, — in soul admirable for virtue, in body a woman — who was illustrious beyond all in Antioch for wealth and family and reputation, had brought up in the principles of religion her two daughters, who were now in the freshness and bloom of life. Since great envy was excited on their account, every means was used to find them in their concealment; and when it was ascertained that they were away, they were summoned deceitfully to Antioch. Thus they were caught in the nets of the soldiers. When the woman saw herself and her daughters thus helpless, and knew the things terrible to speak of that men would do to them — and the most unbearable of all terrible things, the threatened violation of their chastity, — she exhorted herself and the maidens that they ought not to submit even to hear of this. For, she said, that to surrender their souls to the slavery of demons was worse than all deaths and destruction; and she set before them the only deliverance from all these things — escape to Christ.

They then listened to her advice. And after arranging their garments suitably, they went aside from the middle of the road, having requested of the guards a little time for retirement, and cast themselves into a river which was flowing by.

Thus they destroyed themselves. But there were two other virgins in the same city of Antioch who served God in all things, and were true sisters, illustrious in family and distinguished in life, young and blooming, serious in mind, pious in deportment, and admirable for zeal. As if the earth could not bear such excellence, the worshipers of demons commanded to cast them into the sea. And this was done to them.

In Pontus, others endured sufferings horrible to hear. Their fingers were pierced with sharp reeds under their nails. Melted lead, bubbling and boiling with the heat, was poured down the backs of others, and they were roasted in the most sensitive parts of the body.

Others endured on their bowels and privy members shameful and inhuman and unmentionable torments, which the noble and law-observing judges, to show their severity, devised, as more honorable manifestations of wisdom. And new tortures were continually invented, as if they were endeavoring, by surpassing one another, to gain prizes in a contest.

But at the close of these calamities, when finally they could contrive no greater cruelties, and were weary of putting to death, and were filled and satiated with the shedding of blood, they turned to what they considered merciful and humane treatment, so that they seemed to be no longer devising terrible things against us.

For they said that it was not fitting that the cities should be polluted with the blood of their own people, or that the government of their rulers, which was kind and mild toward all, should be defamed through excessive cruelty; but that rather the beneficence of the humane and royal authority should be extended to all, and we should no longer be put to death. For the infliction of this punishment upon us should be stopped in consequence of the humanity of the rulers.

Therefore it was commanded that our eyes should be put out, and that we should be maimed in one of our limbs. For such things were humane in their sight, and the lightest of punishments for us. So that now on account of this kindly treatment accorded us by the impious, it was impossible to tell the incalculable number of those whose right eyes had first been cut out with the sword, and then had been cauterized with fire; or who had been disabled in the left foot by burning the joints, and afterward condemned to the provincial copper mines, not so much for service as for distress and hardship. Besides all these, others encountered other trials, which it is impossible to recount; for their manly endurance surpasses all description.

In these conflicts the noble martyrs of Christ shone illustrious over the entire world, and everywhere astonished those who beheld their manliness; and the evidences of the truly divine and unspeakable power of our Saviour were made manifest through them. To mention each by name would be a long task, if not indeed impossible." - Eusebius of Caesarea, Church History, Book VIII, Ch. 12:1-11

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jamdoc]

So when did Jesus return and take the Philadelphians into heaven to escape a great tribulation? Because the people this was said to have been gone for a really long time. So if this was about taking them away from the earth and into heaven, then when did that happen?



Yes, when Christ returns He comes as Judge of the living and the dead. In the same way that the flood came and took the wicked away, so shall the coming of the Lord be on that great day.

"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2 Peter 3:10



The mark has nothing to do with "the end times". In times of persecution simple things like buying and selling were difficult; and in fact in one instance this was quite literal. Under the Decian persecutions it was required that all subjects of the Roman Empire prove their loyalty by offering sacrifice to the gods and pledge allegiance to Caesar, those who did this received a libellus, a certificate of loyalty.

The mark of the Beast represents allegiance to the Beast, in the same way that God marked His people with His Torah in the Old Covenant, and which all God's people are marked and sealed as His own even now. One can confess that Caesar is lord, or one can confess that Christ is Lord--but one cannot do both.



Tell that to the millions of martyrs who have spilled their blood for Christ's sake. To say such things insults the names and memory of the precious saints of Jesus Christ.

Read this. Read all of it.

"Why need we mention the rest by name, or number the multitude of the men, or picture the various sufferings of the admirable martyrs of Christ? Some of them were slain with the axe, as in Arabia. The limbs of some were broken, as in Cappadocia. Some, raised on high by the feet, with their heads down, while a gentle fire burned beneath them, were suffocated by the smoke which arose from the burning wood, as was done in Mesopotamia. Others were mutilated by cutting off their noses and ears and hands, and cutting to pieces the other members and parts of their bodies, as in Alexandria.

Why need we revive the recollection of those in Antioch who were roasted on grates, not so as to kill them, but so as to subject them to a lingering punishment? Or of others who preferred to thrust their right hand into the fire rather than touch the impious sacrifice? Some, shrinking from the trial, rather than be taken and fall into the hands of their enemies, threw themselves from lofty houses, considering death preferable to the cruelty of the impious.

A certain holy person, — in soul admirable for virtue, in body a woman — who was illustrious beyond all in Antioch for wealth and family and reputation, had brought up in the principles of religion her two daughters, who were now in the freshness and bloom of life. Since great envy was excited on their account, every means was used to find them in their concealment; and when it was ascertained that they were away, they were summoned deceitfully to Antioch. Thus they were caught in the nets of the soldiers. When the woman saw herself and her daughters thus helpless, and knew the things terrible to speak of that men would do to them — and the most unbearable of all terrible things, the threatened violation of their chastity, — she exhorted herself and the maidens that they ought not to submit even to hear of this. For, she said, that to surrender their souls to the slavery of demons was worse than all deaths and destruction; and she set before them the only deliverance from all these things — escape to Christ.

They then listened to her advice. And after arranging their garments suitably, they went aside from the middle of the road, having requested of the guards a little time for retirement, and cast themselves into a river which was flowing by.

Thus they destroyed themselves. But there were two other virgins in the same city of Antioch who served God in all things, and were true sisters, illustrious in family and distinguished in life, young and blooming, serious in mind, pious in deportment, and admirable for zeal. As if the earth could not bear such excellence, the worshipers of demons commanded to cast them into the sea. And this was done to them.

In Pontus, others endured sufferings horrible to hear. Their fingers were pierced with sharp reeds under their nails. Melted lead, bubbling and boiling with the heat, was poured down the backs of others, and they were roasted in the most sensitive parts of the body.

Others endured on their bowels and privy members shameful and inhuman and unmentionable torments, which the noble and law-observing judges, to show their severity, devised, as more honorable manifestations of wisdom. And new tortures were continually invented, as if they were endeavoring, by surpassing one another, to gain prizes in a contest.

But at the close of these calamities, when finally they could contrive no greater cruelties, and were weary of putting to death, and were filled and satiated with the shedding of blood, they turned to what they considered merciful and humane treatment, so that they seemed to be no longer devising terrible things against us.

For they said that it was not fitting that the cities should be polluted with the blood of their own people, or that the government of their rulers, which was kind and mild toward all, should be defamed through excessive cruelty; but that rather the beneficence of the humane and royal authority should be extended to all, and we should no longer be put to death. For the infliction of this punishment upon us should be stopped in consequence of the humanity of the rulers.

Therefore it was commanded that our eyes should be put out, and that we should be maimed in one of our limbs. For such things were humane in their sight, and the lightest of punishments for us. So that now on account of this kindly treatment accorded us by the impious, it was impossible to tell the incalculable number of those whose right eyes had first been cut out with the sword, and then had been cauterized with fire; or who had been disabled in the left foot by burning the joints, and afterward condemned to the provincial copper mines, not so much for service as for distress and hardship. Besides all these, others encountered other trials, which it is impossible to recount; for their manly endurance surpasses all description.

In these conflicts the noble martyrs of Christ shone illustrious over the entire world, and everywhere astonished those who beheld their manliness; and the evidences of the truly divine and unspeakable power of our Saviour were made manifest through them. To mention each by name would be a long task, if not indeed impossible." - Eusebius of Caesarea, Church History, Book VIII, Ch. 12:1-11

-CryptoLutheran

I think the key thing that pretribulationists don't understand is the difference between the actions of men that persecute the church (tribulation) from the supernatural events of the 7 trumpets and bowls (the wrath of God). Saints will be persecuted and martyred, that has happened over the entire history of the church and will intensify in the 70th week. But just like ISIS cutting off Christian's heads is not the wrath of God, neither is people acting in accord with the antichrist cutting off Saint's heads the wrath of God.

The associate ALL 70th week events, including ones caused by men, to be the wrath of God, so because we're not appointed to wrath, they see us as not subject to any of the persecution either. It's a position that developed in cushy 1st world countries that had not seen religious persecution.
But because of that association of blanketing ALL of it under "the wrath of God" when you say that the Church WILL go through the Great Tribulation, they think you're talking about fire and brimstone and the water all turning to blood. Which is not what Jesus said, nor Paul.