Third temple being build in Jerusalem right now

[Jamdoc]

But “this generation” means this generation.

Yeah, the generation that begins to see these things, the generation that sees the fig tree bring forth new leaves.
Context.

 

[Hammster]

Yeah, the generation that begins to see these things, the generation that sees the fig tree bring forth new leaves.
Context.

And that would be the generation he was talking to. Context.

 

[Jamdoc]

And that would be the generation he was talking to. Context.

Nope, he broke from the narrative to explain a parable, and the parable is the context for "this generation".

Unless you want to believe we currently live in a new earth with no more sin and no more death.
But I doubt you'd want to spiritualize THAT far.
and really, the prophecies of Jesus' first coming were fulfilled literally.
Jeremiah's prophecies regarding the fall of Judah, were fulfilled literally, down to the 70 years.
Your interpretation requires a non literal fulfillment, where the bible gives a HEAVILY exaggerated and embellished description of those events.
Making Jesus the King of Big Talk rather than the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Because Jesus described literally warping the sky, and a global great tribulation.

.. Not a regional skirmish.
Revelation describes absolutely cataclysmic events that result in turning the oceans into blood
Not a regional skirmish
and Jesus said that the Great Tribulations would be worse than anything ever in the history of the world, and would never be equaled again in how bad it is.
The Holocaust in Nazi Germany was worse than 70AD.
Rome did not operate factory style death camps that systematically killed millions of Jews.

Jesus also said not one stone would be left standing on the other... yet millions pray to an intact western wall.

AND
Jesus said He would not return until Israel cried out "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord"
and if you believe that Israel called that out in 70AD? Why isn't all Israel saved as promised by the prophets. 2/3 would die, but the 1/3 remnant would all be saved.
Israel is currently filled with Unbelievers, most of them not even believing Judaism.

I'd caution you before putting forth a replacement theology based explanation.
If God doesn't fulfill the promises to national Israel? What makes you think He won't break His covenants to us as well?
Paul warned about replacement theology in Romans 11.

 

[Hammster]

Nope, he broke from the narrative to explain a parable, and the parable is the context for "this generation".

Unless you want to believe we currently live in a new earth with no more sin and no more death.

Thats not necessary.

But I doubt you'd want to spiritualize THAT far.
and really, the prophecies of Jesus' first coming were fulfilled literally.

Really? I don’t think you can substantiate that.

Jeremiah's prophecies regarding the fall of Judah, were fulfilled literally, down to the 70 years.
Your interpretation requires a non literal fulfillment, where the bible gives a HEAVILY exaggerated and embellished description of those events.

Better yet, an accurate understanding.

Making Jesus the King of Big Talk rather than the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Because Jesus described literally warping the sky, and a global great tribulation.

No He didn’t.

Revelation describes absolutely cataclysmic events that result in turning the oceans into blood

No it doesn’t.

and Jesus said that the Great Tribulations would be worse than anything ever in the history of the world, and would never be equaled again in how bad it is.

What did He say exactly??

Jesus also said not one stone would be left standing on the other... yet millions pray to an intact western wall.

Which isn’t the temple.

 

[Dave L]

Lord Jesus will come soon! And so will the Antichrist.
But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.” (Luke 21:36)

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? (2 Thess 2:1-17)

“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand) Matthew 24:15

The Anitchrist will soon take over. Israel will accept him as their Messiah, they will even invite him to the temple, where God will out of his grace remove sin from their eyes so they will finally see and accept Jesus as Messiah, and only then, Jesus will return as written in Hosea 5:15 'I will return again to my place, until they acknowledge their guilt and seek my face, and in their distress earnestly seek me.'

Belief in a third temple carries with it an unforgivable sin. If you plan to offer animal sacrifices, you have already fallen away from Christ according to Hebrews 6.

 

[Jamdoc]

Thats not necessary.


Really? I don’t think you can substantiate that.

Literally born of a virgin
Literally betrayed for 30 pieces of silver
Literally rode into Jerusalem on a donkey
Was literally pierced without having bones broken
was literally killed by being pierced in His hands and feet

The list goes on, and if you don't believe those were literal fulfillments, you have bigger theological problems.

Better yet, an accurate understanding.

Better in a worldly way maybe, but when the bible fulfills other prophecies literally, spiritualizing the meaning away from the second coming prophecies is not really fitting the track record.

No He didn’t.

Matthew 24 says so

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Describes unmistakable events.. a simultaneous solar and lunar eclipse (in other places the moon is described as becoming like blood, which is a lunar eclipse), which is not possible in normal conditions for both to happen simultaneously.
Isaiah 34:4 and Revelation 6:14 describe the sky being rolled up as a scroll.

[/quote]
No it doesn’t.[/quote]
The trumpets in Revelation 8 have 1/3 of all the trees being burnt, 1/3 of the seas and rivers turning to blood
Revelation 16:3-4 has all of them turning to blood.

What did He say exactly??

Matthew 24:21

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Worse than has ever happened in the history of the world, and the worst there will ever be.
Daniel 12 says at the end of those times, Daniel's people (Israel) would be delivered.
Not scattered
Israel was not delivered in 70AD.

Which isn’t the temple.

Part of the temple complex, and Jesus was being shown the BUILDINGS (plural) of the temple. Jesus said the destruction of it would be total. There'd be nothing left intact.

Your version of Jesus sounds like a used car salesman. Promising big things and then delivering mediocrity and breaking promises (such as Israel being delivered)
I'll take the biblical Jesus who keeps His promises, even if they haven't happened yet.

 

[Jamdoc]

Belief in a third temple carries with it an unforgivable sin. If you plan to offer animal sacrifices, you have already fallen away from Christ according to Hebrews 6.

It's not that we believe that the third temple will be holy, it's that we believe that unbelieving Jews who do not consider the New Testament as the Word of God will do what is right in their own eyes, which is build a temple and offer animal sacrifices.
Christians are not building the temple, unbelieving Jews will.

 

[Hammster]

Literally born of a virgin
Literally betrayed for 30 pieces of silver
Literally rode into Jerusalem on a donkey
Was literally pierced without having bones broken
was literally killed by being pierced in His hands and feet

The list goes on, and if you don't believe those were literal fulfillments, you have bigger theological problems.


Better in a worldly way maybe, but when the bible fulfills other prophecies literally, spiritualizing the meaning away from the second coming prophecies is not really fitting the track record.


Matthew 24 says so


Describes unmistakable events.. a simultaneous solar and lunar eclipse (in other places the moon is described as becoming like blood, which is a lunar eclipse), which is not possible in normal conditions for both to happen simultaneously.
Isaiah 34:4 and Revelation 6:14 describe the sky being rolled up as a scroll.

No it doesn’t.

The trumpets in Revelation 8 have 1/3 of all the trees being burnt, 1/3 of the seas and rivers turning to blood
Revelation 16:3-4 has all of them turning to blood.


Matthew 24:21

Worse than has ever happened in the history of the world, and the worst there will ever be.
Daniel 12 says at the end of those times, Daniel's people (Israel) would be delivered.
Not scattered
Israel was not delivered in 70AD.



Part of the temple complex, and Jesus was being shown the BUILDINGS (plural) of the temple. Jesus said the destruction of it would be total. There'd be nothing left intact.

Your version of Jesus sounds like a used car salesman. Promising big things and then delivering mediocrity and breaking promises (such as Israel being delivered)
I'll take the biblical Jesus who keeps His promises, even if they haven't happened yet.

I won’t address everything because it just gets drawn out, especially the insult at the end. But I will address Matthew 24:21.


For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
— Matthew 24:21

You said

and Jesus said that the Great Tribulations would be worse than anything ever in the history of the world, and would never be equaled again in how bad it is.
The Holocaust in Nazi Germany was worse than 70AD.
Rome did not operate factory style death camps that systematically killed millions of Jews.

Let me ask you this. Do you think an event that only left 8 people alive was possibly the worst event in history?

 

[Jamdoc]

I won’t address everything because it just gets drawn out, especially the insult at the end. But I will address Matthew 24:21.


For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
— Matthew 24:21

You said


Let me ask you this. Do you think an event that only left 8 people alive was possibly the worst event in history?

by percentage maybe not, by actual body count, the Great Tribulations will exceed the flood, the Holocaust, communist purges and other genocides.

and I might add.. that Tribulation does not just mean "bad things"
it means persecution, so Jesus was saying that it would be worse than any persecution that has ever happened, or will ever happen.
70AD was not worse than the Holocaust or the Soviet Purges or the Chinese Great Leap Forward.

 

[Hammster]

by percentage maybe not, by actual body count, the Great Tribulations will exceed the flood, the Holocaust, communist purges and other genocides.

and I might add.. that Tribulation does not just mean "bad things"
it means persecution, so Jesus was saying that it would be worse than any persecution that has ever happened, or will ever happen.
70AD was not worse than the Holocaust or the Soviet Purges or the Chinese Great Leap Forward.

So you agree that it’s possible that the flood could be considered worse, by the standards of the heaters anyway. Is that fair?

 

[Jamdoc]

So you agree that it’s possible that the flood could be considered worse, by the standards of the heaters anyway. Is that fair?

By worse event? Maybe
By worse tribulation? No.
Jesus said worse than any previous tribulation since the beginning of the world and would not be matched in the future.
The fact that the flood can possibly be considered a worse event, clues in that Tribulations doesn't just mean "bad event" but is specific to persecution.
which actually fits for me, because I have never believed the "7 year tribulations" view, because to me, Jesus defined the Great Tribulations as only beginning after the midpoint, after the abomination of desolation. and that is at most, 42 months.
not 7 years.

 

[Hammster]

By worse event? Maybe
By worse tribulation? No.
Jesus said worse than any previous tribulation since the beginning of the world and would not be matched in the future.
The fact that the flood can possibly be considered a worse event, clues in that Tribulations doesn't just mean "bad event" but is specific to persecution.
which actually fits for me, because I have never believed the "7 year tribulations" view, because to me, Jesus defined the Great Tribulations as only beginning after the midpoint, after the abomination of desolation. and that is at most, 42 months.
not 7 years.

Actually, it fits the siege on Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple (which would have been completely devastating for the Jews).

 

[Timtofly]

So "soon" could mean soon , or it could mean "in a really long time". Versatile word, innit?

Nope.

 

[Timtofly]

Yep. But precisely nothing a bout anyone's ability to choose whether of not they're included ion thr Book of Life.

Yes, because they can choose the mark, and be removed or they can have their head cut off, and remain in the Lamb's book of life.

 

[parousia70]

By worse event? Maybe
By worse tribulation? No.
Jesus said worse than any previous tribulation since the beginning of the world and would not be matched in the future.
The fact that the flood can possibly be considered a worse event, clues in that Tribulations doesn't just mean "bad event" but is specific to persecution.

So which is it?

Higher Body Count or worse tribulation?

If Ten People are Killed Instantly in an explosion, and two people are tortured to death over several days, which group would you say suffered worse tribulation?

Higher Body count does not indicate greater tribulation.

Worse than has ever happened in the history of the world, and the worst there will ever be.

Scripture tells us in 1 Kings 3:12 that there was "no king like Solomon before or after him." Such statements are then repeated in 2 Kings 18:5-6 of Hezekiah and in 2 Kings 23:25 of Josiah. Obviously, they can't all be the greatest King there ever was nor ever shall be. (And, of course, Jesus Christ surpasses even Solomon -- Matthew 12:42). Furthermore, this same Old Testament idea of "never will be again" is employed of various judgments that have already been fulfilled such as locusts in Egypt (Ex. 10:12-15; cf. Joel 1:1-4), a cry in Egypt (Ex. 11:6), and judgment upon O.T. Israel (Ez. 5:9; Joel 2:2). The Ezekiel 5:9 passage is especially instructive to us, for it states that the Babylonian conquest of Israel (sixth-century BC) would be the greatest judgment God had ever brought upon a nation, past or future.

So, scripturally speaking, there have been MANY "greatest that ever was nor ever shall be" Judgment events.

That said, AD 66-70 was indeed the greatest Day-of-the-Lord event in Israel's history, and was, unquestionably, the one Christ's followers spoke of mere decades before it transpired. This was the same Day of the Lord concerning which the apostles stated they would remain alive unto its passing (1 Thessalonians 5:2-4,23; Philippians 1:6,10; Hebrews 10:25,36-39; 1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 1 Corinthians 5:5). Due to the covenantal significance of the event, that Day of the Lord's vengeance (cf. Luke 21:20-22; Isa 61:2; Jer 46:10) can never be repeated.

That bears repeating.

Due to the covenantal significance of the event, that Day of the Lord's vengeance (cf. Luke 21:20-22; Isaiah 61:2; Jeremiah 46:10) can never be repeated.

There is no equal to the level of devastation millions of Messiah-rejecting Jews endured as they were violently excommunicated out of covenant with God when He came and destroyed them, on time, as prophesied. (Matthew 21:40-45; Acts 3:22-24).

 

[Jamdoc]

So which is it?

Higher Body Count or worse tribulation?

If Ten People are Killed Instantly in an explosion, and two people are tortured to death over several days, which group would you say suffered worse tribulation?

Higher Body count does not indicate greater tribulation.

Were the people in the explosion killed due to persecution, or was the explosion an accident?
Tribulation is persecution.
the flood was not tribulation.

Scripture tells us in 1 Kings 3:12 that there was "no king like Solomon before or after him." Such statements are then repeated in 2 Kings 18:5-6 of Hezekiah and in 2 Kings 23:25 of Josiah. Obviously, they can't all be the greatest King there ever was nor ever shall be. (And, of course, Jesus Christ surpasses even Solomon -- Matthew 12:42). Furthermore, this same Old Testament idea of "never will be again" is employed of various judgments that have already been fulfilled such as locusts in Egypt (Ex. 10:12-15; cf. Joel 1:1-4), a cry in Egypt (Ex. 11:6), and judgment upon O.T. Israel (Ez. 5:9; Joel 2:2). The Ezekiel 5:9 passage is especially instructive to us, for it states that the Babylonian conquest of Israel (sixth-century BC) would be the greatest judgment God had ever brought upon a nation, past or future.

So, scripturally speaking, there have been MANY "greatest that ever was nor ever shall be" Judgment events.

That said, AD 66-70 was indeed the greatest Day-of-the-Lord event in Israel's history, and was, unquestionably, the one Christ's followers spoke of mere decades before it transpired. This was the same Day of the Lord concerning which the apostles stated they would remain alive unto its passing (1 Thessalonians 5:2-4,23; Philippians 1:6,10; Hebrews 10:25,36-39; 1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 1 Corinthians 5:5). Due to the covenantal significance of the event, that Day of the Lord's vengeance (cf. Luke 21:20-22; Isa 61:2; Jer 46:10) can never be repeated.

Israel was not saved then, therefore, not the day of the Lord.
The elect were not gathered
they were scattered.
It's the opposite of what the bible said would happen for Israel in the end.

in fact, perhaps one of the most important pieces of evidence that 70AD had nothing to do with the day of the Lord?
The existence of unbelieving Jews still.

If in 70AD they really cried out "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" and Jesus returned and all Israel was saved?
There wouldn't be unbelieving Jews anymore.

 

[parousia70]

Were the people in the explosion killed due to persecution, or was the explosion an accident?
Tribulation is persecution.
the flood was not tribulation.

Then why do you previously equate Body count to Persecution/Tribulation levels?
Do you now agree there is ZERO correlation between the two?

Israel was not saved then, therefore, not the day of the Lord.
The elect were not gathered
they were scattered.
It's the opposite of what the bible said would happen for Israel in the end.

in fact, perhaps one of the most important pieces of evidence that 70AD had nothing to do with the day of the Lord?
The existence of unbelieving Jews still.

If in 70AD they really cried out "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" and Jesus returned and all Israel was saved?
There wouldn't be unbelieving Jews anymore.

I noticed you made no attempt at addressing the scriptures that refute you regarding what you claim the phrase "ever was nor ever shall be" means in the Bible... Does that me you agree that my point on that is correct and are now retracting your previous claim?

 

[Jamdoc]

Then why do you previously equate Body count to Persecution/Tribulation levels?
Do you now agree there is ZERO correlation between the two?

I think that the Great Tribulations will exceed any previous persecution in both body count and brutality.
By body count, it competes with the holocaust and communist purges.
By brutality, it'll exceed Dr Mengeles' wildest dreams for sickening experiments, and ISIS' "creativity" in how to kill people.
70AD doesn't even come close.
70AD was a regional conflict, and destroyed and scattered Judah, not gathered them and saved them. There was no restitution of all things, we do not have a new heavens and new earth, and if you really think this is the new heavens and new earth? Then God is disappointing, the God you think has already made a new heavens and new earth is like a Used Car salesman, slapping this old Earth saying "Yessir this baby right here is just like new, don't let all that death and sin fool you, this here's the real deal"

I noticed you made no attempt at addressing the scriptures that refute you regarding what you claim the phrase "ever was nor ever shall be" means in the Bible... Does that me you agree that my point on that is correct and are now retracting your previous claim?

No, I am refuting your claim that Jesus returned in 70AD.
It's an absolutely ludicrous claim and violates scripture. Historical books of the bible may have hyperbole in "there was no king like".. but in truth, each king was unique, not necessarily the greatest king.
But if Jesus was talking in hyperbole? I can't even begin to express my disappointment.
I'm glad I don't have to be disappointed in God, because THIS is not the New Earth promised.

 

[Hammster]

Matt 24 is about the destruction of Jerusalem. It’s not about Christ’s second coming.

 

[Jamdoc]

Matt 24 is about the destruction of Jerusalem. It’s not about Christ’s second coming.

verses 29-31 disagree.