There is no Rapture

[dfw69]

God already showed saints can be removed physically from the earth.

Enoch was removed - set aside to where for now. He was removed.
Elijah was removed - set aside to where for now. He was removed.
Even Phillip the evangelist was removed - to somewhere else on earth, yes, but still removed.
And of course our Lord Jesus Christ was removed.

We may add the apostle Paul was removed, though he is not sure whether it was physical or just in spirit.

I do agree that changing does something to make those raptured to the third heavens suitable to appear there not naked but clothed with
a glorified body.

Amen bro we have to be born of the spirit
Meaning change into god’s children by the power of the Holy Spirit

Jesus told nicodemus that flesh give birth to fleshly beings
But the Spirit of God gives birth to spiritual beings

And for what purpose? The only reason to change a man into spiritual beings is to enter Gods kingdom in heaven

John 3:5

 

[oikonomia]

Agreed.

On No. Agreed? Now what do I do?? lol

This is also includes people who will get saved after the Rapture.

Sure. I would think so. If there should be some regenerated after the first rapture.

My feeling is that prophecy is usually letting us know something in part. God examines what we do with what we know.
My feeling is that prophecy told is usually the tip of an iceberg. God tests the hearts.

"You expect Elijah to precede the Messiah? Well here's John the Baptist. Let's see how you react to him."

In this regard of God withholding some details to test the hearts, I think God has not changed.

The Rapture is a big public relations promotion for Christianity because it validates a major prophecy within the bible, especially for unbelievers and worldly/lukewarm Christians who know about this and then find out about the missing people on CNN (or whatever app or channel) after the fact.

I hope you don't mean that Fox News watchers are all halfway raptured already.

There are also 144,000 inspired Jews who will also evangelize the Jews and the world during that time.

I do not think the 144,000 sealed Jews are some inspired evangelists. At this time I believe they represent preserved Jews who are guarded from destruction total during the great tribulation. And I could be wrong. But I have never warmed up to the intepretation that the 144,000 sealed with the seal of the living God are evangelists for the Christian gospel.

My present position (which might be changed) is they are God's way of saying some remnant of Jews are garuanteed to not be killed during the approaching great tribulation. Both in Revelation chapter 7 and chapter 14 the use of 144,000 (I feel) is just God's way of saying "A REMNANT - A MINORITY." Neither do I think the 144,000 sealed Jews from the twelve tribes in chapter 7 are the same group of 144,000 Firstfruits raptured to heaven in chapter 14.

Plus it takes a while from the anti-christ to be introduced and consolidate power so in the interim Christianity will likely explode on a level not seen today or before since the Early Church.

Antichrist FIRST appears a welcomed, brilliant, super attractive world problem solver mediating peace between Jews and Gentiles. He probably will come with plausible solutions to the problems of Europe. After he is assasinated and recusitated by a Satanic miracle will his truest colors be seen as the embodiment of all that opposses God.



I

 

[Trusting in Him]

Why did Paul believe in the rapture? Well in picture form there's quite a lot in the old testament which pre-figure the rapture and also the bride of Christ. and how Christ is gong to be united to His bride. If one thing is certain, that is that Paul definitely knew the old testament scriptures, so he would have known how some many events in old testament scriptures appear to pre-figure the rapture. Have you ever looked up the various descriptions of a traditional jewish wedding in biblical times? It is very revealling! When Jesus share the cup in the last supper with His deciples, He used the words straight out of a Jewish wedding. Would a man speak the words of commitment to his bride to a group of male followers, well that's exactly what Jesus did and the disciples signified their acceptance by drinking from the same cup, don't you think that they understood the meaning of what they were doing? Of course they did, they were Jewish and they were brought up to know the significance of these words.

 

[keras]

Why is this so impossible to believe? Jesus did it …he’s in heaven now ..he was a man born of a woman

Jesus said: No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. John 3:13
Nothing more needs to be said; the whole 'rapture to heaven' theory is wrong and will never happen.

 

[dfw69]

Why did Paul believe in the rapture? Well in picture form there's quite a lot in the old testament which pre-figure the rapture and also the bride of Christ. and how Christ is gong to be united to His bride. If one thing is certain, that is that Paul definitely knew the old testament scriptures, so he would have known how some many events in old testament scriptures appear to pre-figure the rapture. Have you ever looked up the various descriptions of a traditional jewish wedding in biblical times? It is very revealling! When Jesus share the cup in the last supper with His deciples, He used the words straight out of a Jewish wedding. Would a man speak the words of commitment to his bride to a group of male followers, well that's exactly what Jesus did and the disciples signified their acceptance by drinking from the same cup, don't you think that they understood the meaning of what they were doing? Of course they did, they were Jewish and they were brought up to know the significance of these words.

The Jewish wedding thing may be a picture of Jesus uniting the Jewish people together under his wings in Jerusalem and establishing the kingdom of heaven on earth in the future but not of the rapture of the church which is a new mystery revealed to us by Paul by divine inspiration which also is a new program that will end at the rapture.

This only became a possibility because the Jews rejected Jesus (which was expected , god knowing all things) his death brought us gentiles a great light, a new truth , that we can become his children by adoption by faith in his work and his death . His death brought us eternal life .

 

[dfw69]

Jesus said: No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. John 3:13
Nothing more needs to be said; the whole 'rapture to heaven' theory is wrong and will never happen.

Meaning he has to die first to make it possible to receive eternal life with the father

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.(H) 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit.(I) 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[d](J)

9 “How can this be?”(K) Nicodemus asked.

10 “You are Israel’s teacher,”(L) said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know,(M) and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.(N) 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?13 No one has ever gone into heaven(O) except the one who came from heaven(P)—the Son of Man.[e](Q) 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness,(R) so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[f](S) 15 that everyone who believes(T) may have eternal life in him.”[g](U)

16 For God so loved(V) the world that he gave(W) his one and only Son,(X) that whoever believes(Y) in him shall not perish but have eternal life.(Z) 17 For God did not send his Son into the world(AA) to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

You and nicodemus are having a hard time understanding this teaching keras lol

 

[keras]

Meaning he has to die first to make it possible to receive eternal life with the father

Jesus was - from the beginning. John 1:1-3
Jesus was and is Eternal. He came to the earth to make Atonement of the sins of the world. Thru Him, we can receive Eternal life. John 3:16
But that does not happen until the end of the Millennium, when the Book of Life is opened.

Your statement above, is not right and does not prove a 'rapture' of humans. Jesus also said: Where I go you cannot come and many other verses disprove the 'rapture to heaven' theory.

The sad thing is how believers in the rapture, fail to see the great Promises of God to His people during and after the end times events.

 

[dfw69]

Jesus was - from the beginning. John 1:1-3
Jesus was and is Eternal. He came to the earth to make Atonement of the sins of the world. Thru Him, we can receive Eternal life. John 3:16
But that does not happen until the end of the Millennium, when the Book of Life is opened.

Your statement above, is not right and does not prove a 'rapture' of humans.

Yes it does you just fail to see the truth my brother

Jesus also said: Where I go you cannot come and many other verses disprove the 'rapture to heaven' theory.

You mean this one ?….John 13:36 Simon Peter asked him, “Lord, where are you going?” Jesus replied, “Where I am going, you cannot follow now, but you will follow later.”

Or this one…John 8:21 Once more Jesus said to them, “I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.”

Referring to the unbelieving Jews…

John 8:22
This made the Jews ask, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, ‘Where I go, you cannot come’?”

Why even mention the possibility of entering heaven to them if they had no chance? I mean you just mentioned he was referring to heaven, right?

The sad thing is how believers in the rapture, fail to see the great Promises of God to His people during and after the end times events.

Your more than welcome to post a list of the great promises during and after end time events

Question ,just curious ..who is your favorite Bible prophet?

 

[Trusting in Him]

Abraham's name means "Exalted Father" and therefore he is pictured as a type of God the father. Therefore Issac is a picture of the Son. Abraham send his servant Elieser whose name means "In God's shaddow" and therefore he is pictured as type of The Holy Spirit. Abraham's instructions are for the servant to go to Haran to seek a bride for Issac (The Son), but the servant may not bring Issac to Haran to fetch his bride. The servent finds Rebekah and give her gifts of gold and silver. Gold is symbolicof God's divine nature and silver is a symbolic of the atonement money. Rebekah recieves in type both the nature of Gods ( gift's of the Holy Spirit) and the atonement symbolic of the price of salvation paid for on Calvary. Elieser that brings Rebekah back to Isacc who is walking in the evenng and Rebekah covered herself with a veil, with is a token of her respect for Issac and also a token of her virginity. Issac takes her into his mother tent. His mother was called Sarah, who is described by Paul as being a picture of the Heavenly Jerusalem and the mother of us all. Paul tells us that when the rapture comes, that we will meet Jesus in the air and be admitted to the wedding feast where the bridegroom shows off his bride. As it turns outthose who get raptured are the bride! Paul tells us that we will meet Jesus in the air, that is a place which is neither Heaven, or earth, but somewhere in between.

So there you have it, an old testament picture of the Holy Sirit bringing the bride to meet the son somewhere between where the bride is taken from (as depicted in the pictures and types) and the abode of the Son. This appears to fit both the picture of the rapture, but also at the same time the picture of the coming together of the bride and groom. Have you ever looked for the types and symbols in the story of song of Solomon. The name Solomon means Peace, He is the son of King David and therefore a prince. Therefore he is a picture of "The Prince of Peace", if you study the meanings of these Hebrew names, you will be amazed at what you will find in so many of these old testament stories. These things are there to see hidden between the lines, but they are hidden from those choose not to see them. I don't have an abundance of concordances and lexicons for nothing. I choose to look for these things and I don't think that it's a waste of time. The bible tells us that it is the glory of Gods to conceal a matter, but the honour of kings to search out a matter. We are also told in the bible that we are to be a royal priesthood, which means that we will be both priests and kings, before our Gods. It is not good to see these connections. Well, as I have already mentioned several times on this forum, I am quite an old fashioned Christian and study some things hat were better known and understood in a long byegone age.

Lots of things which are perhaps only hinted at appear like this in the old testament. Is this by accident? I don't think so! Since when does God do accidents? Perhaps some interesting things for some of us to think about and look into!

 

[dfw69]

Abraham's name means "Exalted Father" and therefore he is pictured as a type of God the father. Therefore Issac is a picture of the Son. Abraham send his servant Elieser whose name means "In God's shaddow" and therefore he is pictured as type of The Holy Spirit. Abraham's instructions are for the servant to go to Haran to seek a bride for Issac (The Son), but the servant may not bring Issac to Haran to fetch his bride. The servent finds Rebekah and give her gifts of gold and silver. Gold is symbolicof God's divine nature and silver is a symbolic of the atonement money. Rebekah recieves in type both the nature of Gods ( gift's of the Holy Spirit) and the atonement symbolic of the price of salvation paid for on Calvary. Elieser that brings Rebekah back to Isacc who is walking in the evenng and Rebekah covered herself with a veil, with is a token of her respect for Issac and also a token of her virginity. Issac takes her into his mother tent. His mother was called Sarah, who is described by Paul as being a picture of the Heavenly Jerusalem and the mother of us all. Paul tells us that when the rapture comes, that we will meet Jesus in the air and be admitted to the wedding feast where the bridegroom shows off his bride. As it turns outthose who get raptured are the bride! Paul tells us that we will meet Jesus in the air, that is a place which is neither Heaven, or earth, but somewhere in between.

So there you have it, an old testament picture of the Holy Sirit bringing the bride to meet the son somewhere between where the bride is taken from (as depicted in the pictures and types) and the abode of the Son. This appears to fit both the picture of the rapture, but also at the same time the picture of the coming together of the bride and groom. Have you ever looked for the types and symbols in the story of song of Solomon. The name Solomon means Peace, He is the son of King David and therefore a prince. Therefore he is a picture of "The Prince of Peace", if you study the meanings of these Hebrew names, you will be amazed at what you will find in so many of these old testament stories. These things are there to see hidden between the lines, but they are hidden from those choose not to see them. I don't have an abundance of concordances and lexicons for nothing. I choose to look for these things and I don't think that it's a waste of time. The bible tells us that it is the glory of Gods to conceal a matter, but the honour of kings to search out a matter. We are also told in the bible that we are to be a royal priesthood, which means that we will be both priests and kings, before our Gods. It is not good to see these connections. Well, as I have already mentioned several times on this forum, I am quite an old fashioned Christian and study some things hat were better known and understood in a long byegone age.

Lots of things which are perhaps only hinted at appear like this in the old testament. Is this by accident? I don't think so! Since when does God do accidents? Perhaps some interesting things for some of us to think about and look into!

Interesting study

 

[sparow]

Moses was told directly by God, the history of God.


Is God then a parable made up by Moses, in your logical conclusion?

Moses (according to scripture) did converse regarding the covenant; Lot also spoke with God (or the angel of God). I have no Biblical reason to assume Moses received the creation story directly from God, other than give God credit for all things. I imagine Moses got history from relatives he had been visiting.

Even if Moses received extreme accuracy from God, only abstraction has endured.

Nobody can prove God exists; nobody can prove God does not exist. Some say we can prove God exists to ourselves but not others. I say if we can define a God and bow to it's commandments, then that God exists , at least as a concept that has power over us. The God of Israel is a living God; other gods are often distorted memories of dead men or Olympic athletes and the like.

Do we define the God of Israel? No, He defines Himself. When men define God the define a false god. I believe the living God of Israel is greater than the concept men have of Him; it is the covenant and the history of the covenant that defines the God of Israel. God uses indirect communication so that men cannot accuse Him.

 

[sparow]

The Second Coming is at the 5th and 6th Seal. This is the final harvest.

If you are not harvested, then you will go to the LOF.

That is the hard truth, many here reject.

After the Church is removed, Israel is removed. Then the nations are removed, the wheat will live on the earth, and the tares burned up assumingly in the LOF. The only humans left will be destroyed in the winepress of God's wrath. There is no post trib harvest of redeemed. Only if some are beheaded, will they be physically resurrected to live on the earth. If you choose to wait and chop your head off, you will not be part of the glorified church in Paradise. You will live on earth for 1,000 years waiting for the church to come down as the New Jerusalem.

Revelation 19 is not the Second Coming to the Mount of Olives per Zechariah 14. The Second Coming to the Mount of Olives happens at the 6th Seal. At the 7th Trumpet, it will be determined if Satan gets 42 months. It is quite possible, that no one will be left to choose beheading over the mark. If that is the case there will be no 42 months, period. Revelation 13, 15, 16, 17, 18, and 19 will not even happen. Satan will still be bound for 1,000 years, because he and his angels were just defeated by Michael and cast out of heaven. But Satan will not have 42 months and no Babylonian empire with a FP and beast, if there is no human to be beheaded at the confirmation of the Atonement Covenant per Daniel 9:27.

Many accept the worse case scenario. There is a best case scenario where the week is not split in half. It seems Satan has deceived many in to spending time with him on the earth, instead of with the Lord in Paradise. The same wisdom he offered Eve to get kicked out of Paradise. You all really should tell Satan to get out of your head and ideology, and let him know you are going to Paradise, and not enjoying the tribulation with him.

So that is the rapture sequence. The problem with false doctrine is it leads people astray.

I believe Jesus said He will return as He left, where He left, humanoid with a hole in His side, and He will continue with the remaining 3 and a half years of confirming the covenant which is Revelation.

 

[sparow]

That is obviously what you have done. 1 Thess 4:16-17 does not say that heaven is the destination. It was the place Jesus came from.
YOU have 'wrongly interpretated' heaven the be the destination.

A general resurrection, or any body change to anyone other than the GT martyrs, is not in the scriptures.
Your mindset seems to be: 'float me up to heaven', despite the fact of 4 verses that say we must endure until the end.

Please Douggg, you only degrade yourself by making such wacky comments.
Jesus did come; the first Advent, He will Return as King,\
No other actual comings.

I believe Daniel suggests one coming, while allowing for two. I perceive a single coming, semantics and words aside, starting with 3 1/2 years confirming the covenant, ending with 3 1/2 years confirming the covenant, and a perceived 2300 years in between where Jesus rides around on a white horse with the covenant under His arm, and when the gentiles tread the sanctuary of God under foot.

 

[Timtofly]

It sounds like they are talking about the same thing in both Chapters. I'll even throw in the end verses of Revelation 12 for good measure. The mountain is split in Zech 14 creating an earthquake that wipes out the armies described in Revelation 19.



Just because it's not mentioned does not mean it doesn't happen. What is mentioned is that's called the Abomination that Jesus tells everyone to flee Israel (Matt 24:15-16, Revelation 12:6 are referring to the same event as Daniel 9:27), and by deducation that would include (Matt 24:15, 2 Thess 2:4 -- which points to Rev 13:15).

The AoD is the last 42 months. So the Trumpets are the GT. Can you not see that Matthew 24:15 gets to the end and then works backwards to the fig tree, Israel becoming a Nation.

The Nation of Israel.
The Second Coming.
The GT.

And if necessary, the AoD.

Then the Millennium starts.

The Seals are the harvest of the church.
The Trumpets are the harvest of Jacob. Matthew 25:31.

The Thunders are the harvest of the Nations. Matthew 13:36-46.

When the Atonement Covenant is confirmed at the 7th Trumpet, Daniel 9:27, Satan may or may not get those last 42 months mentioned in Revelation 13.

 

[Juan777]

The AoD is the last 42 months. So the Trumpets are the GT. Can you not see that Matthew 24:15 gets to the end and then works backwards to the fig tree, Israel becoming a Nation.

The Nation of Israel.
The Second Coming.
The GT.

And if necessary, the AoD.

Then the Millennium starts.

The Seals are the harvest of the church.
The Trumpets are the harvest of Jacob. Matthew 25:31.

The Thunders are the harvest of the Nations. Matthew 13:36-46.

When the Atonement Covenant is confirmed at the 7th Trumpet, Daniel 9:27, Satan may or may not get those last 42 months mentioned in Revelation 13.

What is your read on Rev 9 -- the 5th Trumpet and the swarm of demon-locusts so thick that they darken the sky as they fly across the sky to torment humanity? I'm curious of how that would fit into that mindset. I'm assuming that the people of Israel are spared from this plague. Perhaps they are in the wilderness of Petra and they are supernaturally protected from these plagues.

The Seals refer to a title deed that Jesus has to the Earth. In ancient Jewish law title deeds have to be unsealed in order to claim property. (Jeremiah 32). Jesus has to unseal the title deed (aka scroll) to the planet of Earth. The devil is illegaly the god of this world. The unsealing of this scroll is necessary to legally re-establish a claim of this planet back to God and the removal of the devil from the place.

You see, I tend to interpret scripture with scripture and allow the most literal, face-value interpretation as possible. I look for patterns in the OT, or Jewish customs in order to try to understand or picture some of these events in the book of Revelation. That's my mind-set and how I process prophecy.

There are the Feast of the Trumpets that might provide insights into the Trumpets. I admit I need to study into that more to understand the Jewish Feast of Trumpets and what hidden message or meaning behind that feast would show about the real angelic Trumpets. I know of nothing much about Thunder in the OT, in terms of any custom, feast, or pattern so you've got me there with that mind-set.

All I can brainstorm about thunder is it's relationship to the two witnesses. Moses raised his rod and thunder and hail came down on Exodus 9:23. Perhaps something similar happens with the two witnesses. I just did a google search and it looks like there are 7 thunders and 2 witnesses mentioned in Rev 10-11. So perhaps the OT with Moses does provide some insights into this.

That being said, your perspective is also interesting, but I'd need time to research into what you are saying to try to understand that better.

 

[Timtofly]

What is your read on Rev 9 -- the 5th Trumpet and the swarm of demon-locusts so thick that they darken the sky as they fly across the sky to torment humanity? I'm curious of how that would fit into that mindset. I'm assuming that the people of Israel are spared from this plague. Perhaps they are in the wilderness of Petra and they are supernaturally protected from these plagues.

The Seals refer to a title deed that Jesus has to the Earth. In ancient Jewish law title deeds have to be unsealed in order to claim property. (Jeremiah 32). Jesus has to unseal the title deed (aka scroll) to the planet of Earth. The devil is illegaly the god of this world. The unsealing of this scroll is necessary to legally re-establish a claim of this planet back to God and the removal of the devil from the place.

You see, I tend to interpret scripture with scripture and allow the most literal, face-value interpretation as possible. I look for patterns in the OT, or Jewish customs in order to try to understand or picture some of these events in the book of Revelation. That's my mind-set and how I process prophecy.

There are the Feast of the Trumpets that might provide insights into the Trumpets. I admit I need to study into that more to understand the Jewish Feast of Trumpets and what hidden message or meaning behind that feast would show about the real angelic Trumpets. I know of nothing much about Thunder in the OT, in terms of any custom, feast, or pattern so you've got me there with that mind-set.

All I can brainstorm about thunder is it's relationship to the two witnesses. Moses raised his rod and thunder and hail came down on Exodus 9:23. Perhaps something similar happens with the two witnesses. I just did a google search and it looks like there are 7 thunders and 2 witnesses mentioned in Rev 10-11. So perhaps the OT with Moses does provide some insights into this.

That being said, your perspective is also interesting, but I'd need time to research into what you are saying to try to understand that better.

From the 5th Trumpet on are 3 woes.

The fallen angels are loosed out of the pit. Jude 1:6

"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

A third of the angels have been bound for near 6,000 years. The 3 woes are the judgments they are loosed for.

 

[keras]

Yes it does you just fail to see the truth my brother

The issue of a 'rapture to heaven' for the Church is far from being accepted by many people who seriously study this belief. So believers in that idea cannot just assume that a rapture will happen.

They say; We Christians are not appointed to wrath. And this is a true statement, but it doesn't in any way mean that God intends to remove His people to heaven, to avoid any hardships and testing to come.
I have a list of 25 scriptures that say how the Lord will protect His people during His wrath.

What people should consider, is what does God want of us Christians? What is our destiny?
Jesus gave us a Commission; to spread the Gospel, Matthew 28:19-20
Will He say: Nah, don't need to bother any more, come up here and do harp practice! Let the ungodly stew in their own juice.

NO; we are His witnesses, Isaiah 43:8-13, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations, Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16, also Ezekiel 39:27
THAT is our task, our destiny and our great privilege.

Question ,just curious ..who is your favorite Bible prophet?

ALL the Prophets are of great value and very instructive. Even the ones in extra Biblical books. For example Ezra was a Prophet, but the Book of Ezra in the Bible, has no prophesies. They are all in the Apocrypha; the Books of 1 & 2 Esdras.
What constantly amazes me, is how they relate to each other and altogether make a coherent and logical picture of what God has planned for our future.
That future is entirely on earth, we never go to heaven, but after the Millennium, the new Jerusalem will come here and God Himself will dwell in it with mankind. The renewed heaven and earth. Revelation 21:1-7

 

[dfw69]

The issue of a 'rapture to heaven' for the Church is far from being accepted by many people who seriously study this belief. So believers in that idea cannot just assume that a rapture will happen.

They say; We Christians are not appointed to wrath. And this is a true statement, but it doesn't in any way mean that God intends to remove His people to heaven, to avoid any hardships and testing to come.
I have a list of 25 scriptures that say how the Lord will protect His people during His wrath.

What people should consider, is what does God want of us Christians? What is our destiny?
Jesus gave us a Commission; to spread the Gospel, Matthew 28:19-20
Will He say: Nah, don't need to bother any more, come up here and do harp practice! Let the ungodly stew in their own juice.

NO; we are His witnesses, Isaiah 43:8-13, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations, Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16, also Ezekiel 39:27
THAT is our task, our destiny and our great privilege.

ALL the Prophets are of great value and very instructive. Even the ones in extra Biblical books. For example Ezra was a Prophet, but the Book of Ezra in the Bible, has no prophesies. They are all in the Apocrypha; the Books of 1 & 2 Esdras.
What constantly amazes me, is how they relate to each other and altogether make a coherent and logical picture of what God has planned for our future.
That future is entirely on earth, we never go to heaven, but after the Millennium, the new Jerusalem will come here and God Himself will dwell in it with mankind. The renewed heaven and earth. Revelation 21:1-7

Thanks for your replies

 

[Douggg]

Jesus said: No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. John 3:13
Nothing more needs to be said; the whole 'rapture to heaven' theory is wrong and will never happen.

keras, in all of your posts, you should point out that you are using a non-standard 1989 Revised English Bible, not available for free online for everyone to read.

The whole verse kjv says...

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus is revealing that he came down to earth from heaven. And which no man has gone to heaven physically and returned back to speak about things going on there. And Jesus is speaking in the past tense. The rapture/resurrection event is future, and in glorified, redeemed, eternal life bodies.

 

[keras]

keras, in all of your posts, you should point out that you are using a non-standard 1989 Revised English Bible, not available for free online for everyone to read.

I refer to the KJV, NIV, CJB and others, but my main Bible is, the unbiased and free from Church doctrines and annotations: REBible.
The version favoured by the Wycliffe Translators. I recommend it to everyone, as the most accurate, easiest and most readable Bible.

Jesus is revealing that he came down to earth from heaven. And which no man has gone to heaven physically and returned back to speak about things going on there. And Jesus is speaking in the past tense. The rapture/resurrection event is future, and in glorified, redeemed, eternal life bodies.

I don't buy this, it is a contradiction to many other scriptures. Jesus said - No one goes to heaven..... simple as that>
Proved by how we humans are made to live on earth and angels are made to serve God in heaven.
God and heaven will come to the earth; AFTER the Millennium.