There is no Rapture

[keras]

Do u expect to see and talk to Jesus when u arrive there?

What I did expect, is for you to check my scriptures and if you consider I have misapplied them, to correct me with proofs.
If you see that what I said was correct, then I expect you to change your beliefs.

Jesus will not be physically present as we live in the holy Land. Spiritually' He will protect us, as described in Ezekiel 38 to 39.
We will choose our own leaders, Hosea 1:11, Jeremiah 30:21

What if the things u say actually happen without the appearance of Jesus ?

They will, and the holy People - all the faithful Christian peoples, will be conquered Daniel 7:25, Zechariah 14:1-2, Revelation 13:5-8
Half will be taken to a place of safety on earth, the rest must remain. Revelation 12:14 & 17

 

[Juan777]

I’m sure

There will still be a chance to repent and die for Jesus after the rapture to become a martyr for him

Or be killed by thugs. It seems like a rather nasty world to be in afterwards. Rapture movies portray a time of chaos and anarchy. You still have to survive for 3.5 years or whatever time before you are even placed with an opportunity of martyrdom.

It should not be a surprise but expected

I don't feel I am where I should be. I'm busy, doing lots of things like earning money and supporting myself, and I'm occupied with lots of things around. So if my heart is overcharged with surfieting, and I'm ladened with the cares of the world, then I'm at an at risk category according to Luke 21:34. To top it all of, I also have secret vices that crop up from time to time. Again, I feel this is a risky category of something going wrong. If I'm wrong then it will be a good surprize since I don't know how to beat some of these things. Jesus is probably delaying the rapture because there are too many people who are addicted to fapping and might miss the rapture. Our of mercy He's delaying it.

True I’ve spent a good time of study for that very purpose

Personally I believe it will take place in 2029 just a theory!

If it will take place in 2029 then I'd worry if my 84 year old mother will survive the decade. You know what happens when people get too old. This is a problem that has been happening since Adam and Eve took that fruit and introduced death to this race. I would rather the Rapture happen than anything happens to mom. Thank God she's okay today.

 

[keras]

1. coming for the rapture/resurrection.
2. coming a second time to Jerusalem, i.e. Jesus's return, His Second Coming.

This is too much! Two Comings of Jesus? You are so hopelessly wrong and in confused error.

The many Prophesies that say the Lord will come before the glorious Return, all refer to the terrible Day that He sends His fiery wrath, It is not an appearance at all, He will SEND His vengeance and wrath to destroy His enemies, As Psalms 11:4-6 and Amos 1 tell us.

NO human is resurrected before Jesus Returns and then only the GT martyrs. The rest of the dead wait for the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium. Revelation 20:4-6

 

[dfw69]

What I did expect, is for you to check my scriptures and if you consider I have misapplied them, to correct me with proofs.
If you see that what I said was correct, then I expect you to change your beliefs.

Jesus will not be physically present as we live in the holy Land. Spiritually' He will protect us, as described in Ezekiel 38 to 39.
We will choose our own leaders, Hosea 1:11, Jeremiah 30:21

They will, and the holy People - all the faithful Christian peoples, will be conquered Daniel 7:25, Zechariah 14:1-2, Revelation 13:5-8
Half will be taken to a place of safety on earth, the rest must remain. Revelation 12:14 & 17

I have my beliefs you have yours I don’t agree with them and I don’t really wish to argue every point I was just curious on your thoughts on the questions I ask

Thanks for your reply peace

 

[Juan777]

This is too much! Two Comings of Jesus? You are so hopelessly wrong and in confused error.

Unless Jesus feet touches the ground, technically its not a coming. The clouds don't count.

The many Prophesies that say the Lord will come before the glorious Return, all refer to the terrible Day that He sends His fiery wrath, It is not an appearance at all, He will SEND His vengeance and wrath to destroy His enemies, As Psalms 11:4-6 and Amos 1 tell us.

Except when He is coming in the clouds rather than landing on the Mount of Olives, spliting the mountain area and causing an Earthquake that wipes out the armies saving the remnant Jews, who hid in Petra from annihilation. Do you need a reference for the clouds?

NO human is resurrected before Jesus Returns and then only the GT martyrs. The rest of the dead wait for the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium. Revelation 20:4-6

Except for the "Cloud Return", in which case, the only way to meet Him in the clouds would be to be able to travel upwards. That's not possible in our bodies, so it would have to be our glorified bodies that are coming up to meet Him that would not be affected by changes as you go into the atmosphere, into space, and to heaven with Jesus.

 

[dfw69]

Or be killed by thugs. It seems like a rather nasty world to be in afterwards. Rapture movies portray a time of chaos and anarchy. You still have to survive for 3.5 years or whatever time before you are even placed with an opportunity of martyrdom.

Rapture movies are all wrong but I hear ya

The 7 year trib is not going to happen after the rapture… a false messianic age is coming though that’s the test but god has a plan to combat it

I don't feel I am where I should be. I'm busy, doing lots of things like earning money and supporting myself, and I'm occupied with lots of things around. So if my heart is overcharged with surfieting, and I'm ladened with the cares of the world, then I'm at an at risk category according to Luke 21:34. To top it all of, I also have secret vices that crop up from time to time. Again, I feel this is a risky category of something going wrong. If I'm wrong then it will be a good surprize since I don't know how to beat some of these things. Jesus is probably delaying the rapture because there are too many people who are addicted to fapping and might miss the rapture. Our of mercy He's delaying it.

He loves you and if you keep the faith to love forgive judge not condemn not have mercy then you will obtain those things

Believe Jesus is your father he is the only who will redeem your sinful state and clothe you with his righteousness

If it will take place in 2029 then I'd worry if my 84 year old mother will survive the decade. You know what happens when people get too old. This is a problem that has been happening since Adam and Eve took that fruit and introduced death to this race. I would rather the Rapture happen than anything happens to mom. Thank God she's okay today.

10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

 

[Juan777]

Rapture movies are all wrong but I hear ya

The 7 year trib is not going to happen after the rapture… a false messianic age is coming though that’s the test but god has a plan to combat it

He loves you and if you keep the faith to love forgive judge not condemn not have mercy then you will obtain those things

Believe Jesus is your father he is the only who will redeem your sinful state and clothe you with his righteousness



10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

Thank you for your kind words. I just watched a hard video from David Diga/Encounter-TV Ministries and he talks about surrendering to the Holy Spirit:

Believe me when I say I didn't want to play this video at all when I saw it because its like "what is he coming up with now or what is he going to tell me to do?", but it feels like in the order of things, its fitting I watched this video to answer some of the statements I may have made earlier.

With me, I think it seems this could be an issue, either subtly or overtly depending on the scenario. The idea is how many Christians are really surrendered to the Holy Spirit and in order to be Raptured....if you have to be totally surrendered to the Holy Spirit at the moment the Rapture happens or you'll simply miss it.

 

[keras]

Except when He is coming in the clouds rather than landing on the Mount of Olives, spliting the mountain area and causing an Earthquake that wipes out the armies saving the remnant Jews, who hid in Petra from annihilation. Do you need a reference for the clouds?

I know the ref; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, which is a prophetic description of the glorious Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign.
This cannot refer to a 'rapture to heaven', as Jesus has just come from heaven to the earth,

Except for the "Cloud Return", in which case, the only way to meet Him in the clouds would be to be able to travel upwards. That's not possible in our bodies, so it would have to be our glorified bodies that are coming up to meet Him that would not be affected by changes as you go into the atmosphere, into space, and to heaven with Jesus.

Nonsense.
There is no change to our physical bodies when Jesus Returns. That doesn't happen until the GWT Judgment. Rev 20:11-15
The 'harpazo' mentioned will be a transportation, as what happened to Philip. Acts 8:39 Confirmed by Matthew 24:31

 

[dfw69]

Thank you for your kind words. I just watched a hard video from David Diga/Encounter-TV Ministries and he talks about surrendering to the Holy Spirit:

Believe me when I say I didn't want to play this video at all when I saw it because its like "what is he coming up with now or what is he going to tell me to do?", but it feels like in the order of things, its fitting I watched this video to answer some of the statements I may have made earlier.

With me, I think it seems this could be an issue, either subtly or overtly depending on the scenario. The idea is how many Christians are really surrendered to the Holy Spirit and in order to be Raptured....if you have to be totally surrendered to the Holy Spirit at the moment the Rapture happens or you'll simply miss it.

The rapture is a gift and you cannot earn or merit it .if you belong to Jesus and remain his child by faith to do his will then he will fulfill his promises to you

If your worried the rapture will happen suddenly and poof u missed it .. it is not going to take place that way

The rapture will happen like the resurrection of Jesus ,the resurrection of the dead in Christ will take place first then they will come to us to reveal the time has come … then we will be change into godlike creatures and be able to fly up like wings on eagles to meet him in the heavens

 

[Juan777]

I know the ref; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, which is a prophetic description of the glorious Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign.
This cannot refer to a 'rapture to heaven', as Jesus has just come from heaven to the earth,

The plain and literal meaning of the verse is believers are meeting Jesus in the clouds. Anything else beyond that is interpretation. I tend to take these verses at their face value rather than try to fit them into a mindset or narrative.

Nonsense.
There is no change to our physical bodies when Jesus Returns. That doesn't happen until the GWT Judgment. Rev 20:11-15
The 'harpazo' mentioned will be a transportation, as what happened to Philip. Acts 8:39 Confirmed by Matthew 24:31

Its nonsense to you because it doesn't fit your narrative or mindset. It sounds like you have a strong mindset or eschatological frame-work that doesn't allow for other variables. However, it doesn't make it any less valid objectively.

There are resurrections, but the GWT is not the subject that 1 Thess 4 is talking about. That just doesn't add up. What about Enoch and Elijah? Those are examples of individual Raptures of people who pleased God and were "Raptured". If those two people were resurrected, you've already set up a spiritual precedent that it's not just the GWT judgment, which is why that's off on so many levels. Also people who end up in hell aren't going to have the glorified bodies described in 1 Cor 15. Therefore to say everyone in the GWT, describes 1 Cor 15, and 1 Thess 4 also doesn't add up since those verses apply for born-again Christians, not the whole world.

 

[Juan777]

If your worried the rapture will happen suddenly and poof u missed it .. it is not going to take place that way

I think the CNN called this Rapture anxiety but I have to check it out. But that's reassuring, sometimes I check my mother's bedroom to see if she's there or she got raptured away if I'm not seeing her around, so I guess I have to change that way of thinking. There were a few times I thought she was "raptured" but was really in another part of the house or walking in the backyard. So yeah, I must be applying something off to have that mindset.

 

[dfw69]

I think the CNN called this Rapture anxiety but I have to check it out. But that's reassuring, sometimes I check my mother's bedroom to see if she's there or she got raptured away if I'm not seeing her around, so I guess I have to change that way of thinking. There were a few times I thought she was "raptured" but was really in another part of the house or walking in the backyard. So yeah, I must be applying something off to have that mindset.

Yea the rapture is nothing to be feared. when Jesus arose on firstfruits they thought they saw a ghost .Jesus reassuring them it’s ok ,it’s me lol

Seeing past loved ones come back to life may come as a shock at first but it will settle in because we know they are returning back from the dead

Jesus didn’t go to heaven until 40 days later, so who knows how many days will past between our resurrection and ascension

 

[sparow]

I believe it is truth .I believe Paul was a true teacher so if he said it , it is true

Example? Are u referring to returning to the law ? Paul said not be circumcised and no flesh is saved by the law

Jesus commandments are to love forgive judge not condemn not turn other cheek have mercy

Basically walking in brotherly love fulfills the law through an uncircumcised heart

Jesus fulfilled the law for us to deny that denies him right?

Salvation is a gift it’s not earned

I do not like to be argumentative so I present an alternate view.


If Paul said it then it is true that Paul said it. Did Paul write the Epistles though; he probably did, but who edited them? Paul's epistles are not considered universal as are the epistles of the real apostles. Paul's epistles took the form of contemporary debate and for us is out of date. I do not regard Paul as having any more authority than the Pope, both presume to change the Law, where as Jesus was not able to make changes, had He wanted to.


I do not believe Paul said, “do not circumcise” but rather, “need not circumcise” to new Pagan recruits on baby milk, later when on strong meat their faith may require them to circumcise.

Paul was critical of the Law as perceived by the Pharisees; Paul did not distinguish between the Law of the Pharisee's and the perfect Law of God; Paul says to Israel, you did not fail the Law failed.

We could say flesh is not saved at all but is discarded; in the same way one might say there is a required difference between, keeping the Law, and, not breaking the Law coupled to repentance on occasions.

Under heaven there is a time to love, a time to hate, a time to judge, a time to not judge, a time to turn the other cheek and have mercy Eccl 3:1-17.

All the Law hangs on the two great commandments, Love the Lord with all your heart and mind, and, Love your neighbour as you love yourself.

There is a problem. Love in the English language is largely meaningless because it's unlimited, distorted usage; love could refer to the inner working of a brothel; I would not assume that usage but an atheist might.

The two great commandments are an abstract, the ten are the abstract expanded; this is how Jesus defines the Greek version of love.

Thou shall have no other gods before me
Thou shall not make any graven image (and bow down to it)
Thou shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain
Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy (separated, sanctified)
Honour your father and mother
Thou shall not murder
Thou shall not commit adultery
Thou shall no steal
Thou shall not bear false witness against your neighbour
Thou shall not covet your neighbour's wife, house or property

A circumcised heart is required. A Christian should be set apart from the world; unfortunately Christians are to often of the world.

Who told you that Jesus fulfils the Law on our be half? I recognise this as a common false doctrine; Jesus kept the Law in His way, as an example of how we should keep it. The scripture that confuses is when He said, “I did not come to destroy the Law but to fulfil it”. He of course meant the Law and the Prophets; Luke expounds this to, “I came to fulfil all that is said of Me in the Law and the Prophets”. Jesus came to confirm the covenant, bring the covenant to fruition, and of course He was cut off in the middle; half of the confirming is still to come.

That salvation is a free gift is an insult to God; it is true that price of salvation is such that we could never earn the price; but I fear that the price Jesus paid is far greater that what we are told or could comprehend; but commensurate with the damage done by the war in heaven.

We are born into a situation where the default for our end is the second death; but with an option to obtain a reprieve; but the road is narrow and few find it; false doctrine makes out it is easy.

Forget Paul and read these epistles:

Jas James
1 Pet
2 Pet
1 Jn

 

[dfw69]

I do not like to be argumentative so I present an alternate view.


If Paul said it then it is true that Paul said it. Did Paul write the Epistles though; he probably did, but who edited them? Paul's epistles are not considered universal as are the epistles of the real apostles. Paul's epistles took the form of contemporary debate and for us is out of date. I do not regard Paul as having any more authority than the Pope, both presume to change the Law, where as Jesus was not able to make changes, had He wanted to.


I do not believe Paul said, “do not circumcise” but rather, “need not circumcise” to new Pagan recruits on baby milk, later when on strong meat their faith may require them to circumcise.

Paul was critical of the Law as perceived by the Pharisees; Paul did not distinguish between the Law of the Pharisee's and the perfect Law of God; Paul says to Israel, you did not fail the Law failed.

We could say flesh is not saved at all but is discarded; in the same way one might say there is a required difference between, keeping the Law, and, not breaking the Law coupled to repentance on occasions.

Under heaven there is a time to love, a time to hate, a time to judge, a time to not judge, a time to turn the other cheek and have mercy Eccl 3:1-17.

All the Law hangs on the two great commandments, Love the Lord with all your heart and mind, and, Love your neighbour as you love yourself.

There is a problem. Love in the English language is largely meaningless because it's unlimited, distorted usage; love could refer to the inner working of a brothel; I would not assume that usage but an atheist might.

The two great commandments are an abstract, the ten are the abstract expanded; this is how Jesus defines the Greek version of love.

Thou shall have no other gods before me
Thou shall not make any graven image (and bow down to it)
Thou shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain
Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy (separated, sanctified)
Honour your father and mother
Thou shall not murder
Thou shall not commit adultery
Thou shall no steal
Thou shall not bear false witness against your neighbour
Thou shall not covet your neighbour's wife, house or property

A circumcised heart is required. A Christian should be set apart from the world; unfortunately Christians are to often of the world.

Who told you that Jesus fulfils the Law on our be half? I recognise this as a common false doctrine; Jesus kept the Law in His way, as an example of how we should keep it. The scripture that confuses is when He said, “I did not come to destroy the Law but to fulfil it”. He of course meant the Law and the Prophets; Luke expounds this to, “I came to fulfil all that is said of Me in the Law and the Prophets”. Jesus came to confirm the covenant, bring the covenant to fruition, and of course He was cut off in the middle; half of the confirming is still to come.

That salvation is a free gift is an insult to God; it is true that price of salvation is such that we could never earn the price; but I fear that the price Jesus paid is far greater that what we are told or could comprehend; but commensurate with the damage done by the war in heaven.

We are born into a situation where the default for our end is the second death; but with an option to obtain a reprieve; but the road is narrow and few find it; false doctrine makes out it is easy.

Forget Paul and read these epistles:

Jas James
1 Pet
2 Pet
1 Jn

I see where u stand
I will not be forgetting Paul
I stand with him

I find most law keepers deny Paul and deny the rapture because they can only see a kingdom on earth

I truly believe the law still blinds Israel
And they cannot see the glory of the work of Jesus and what it truly implies for believers

Thanks for your reply peace

 

[Douggg]

This is too much! Two Comings of Jesus? You are so hopelessly wrong and in confused error.

That's the reaction the Jews (Judaism) take of the coming of the messiah. They believe that the messiah only comes once.

 

[keras]

The plain and literal meaning of the verse is believers are meeting Jesus in the clouds. Anything else beyond that is interpretation. I tend to take these verses at their face value rather than try to fit them into a mindset or narrative.

That is obviously what you have done. 1 Thess 4:16-17 does not say that heaven is the destination. It was the place Jesus came from.
YOU have 'wrongly interpretated' heaven the be the destination.

Its nonsense to you because it doesn't fit your narrative or mindset

A general resurrection, or any body change to anyone other than the GT martyrs, is not in the scriptures.
Your mindset seems to be: 'float me up to heaven', despite the fact of 4 verses that say we must endure until the end.

That's the reaction the Jews (Judaism) take of the coming of the messiah. They believe that the messiah only comes once.

Please Douggg, you only degrade yourself by making such wacky comments.
Jesus did come; the first Advent, He will Return as King,\
No other actual comings.

 

[Douggg]

Please Douggg, you only degrade yourself by making such wacky comments.
Jesus did come; the first Advent, He will Return as King,\
No other actual comings.

You have been placed in the same situation as the first century Jews who were told that Jesus comes a Second time, They insisted and still believe today that the messiah only comes once.

Similar to them, but in your end times situation, you believe that Jesus the messiah in the future only comes once. Because you don't separate the reason for Jesus coming for the rapture/resurrection event, and Jesus coming for judgment of His Second Coming Return event.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Jesus coming for the rapture/resurrection event, John 14:2-3, 1Thessalonians4:15-18, 1Thessalonians5:9-11 (for salvation), Luke 21:34-36, 1Corinthians 2:9.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

1Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Jesus coming to execute judgement of His Second Coming Return event. Jude 1:14-15,

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

 

[JLB777]

Sure, we have the Promise of the Lord's protection during the time of His wrath. Isaiah 43:2, Isaiah 41:18, 1 Corinthians 10:13

The tribulation is not the time of God’s wrath. God’s wrath is pored out at His coming.


Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Revelation 19:15


The Church is resurrected and raptured at His coming in which we will be high above the earth in the air with Christ, when He pours out the wrath of God upon the antichrist and the wicked.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17


This is what the Day of the Lord is about.

Salvation for the Church, and destruction of the wicked.




JLB

 

[JLB777]

Your mindset seems to be: 'float me up to heaven', despite the fact of 4 verses that say we must endure until the end.

The rapture isn’t about float me up to heaven, but it is about being caught up in the air with Christ, just before He destroys the antichrist and the wicked.

We must endure to the end, as the Church will be here on earth throughout the great tribulation.

 

[JLB777]

Show proof in scripture that describes all these events taking place at the same time

Otherwise we have 2 appointments ,2 comings, describing two different times and seasons in the future and they are describe with specific distinctions of events with no mentioning of them happening together

You just can’t say this coming description and that coming description refers to the same coming without proof in scripture that truly binds both events being described together in scripture

Without proof what you wrote is not truth just speculation

I have given scriptures that plainly show us the resurrection and rapture occur at His coming and are one event.

• that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

• There is only one coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. It’s called the Day of the Lord.

But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-2



The resurrection of the dead in Christ, and the rapture are one event that occurs at His coming.


Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds


It’s plain and clear that the raptured ones, will be caught up together with them resurrected ones, at His coming.



JLB