There is no Rapture

[Douggg]

No one goes to heaven..... simple as that

keras, there a huge difference between the non-standard translation you are using, and the kjv translation of that verse. You are basing an entire doctrine on a mis-translation of that verse. Because the translation you are using implies future tense - while the kjv implies past tense.

And no-one has free online access to the translation you are using to check the verse you quoted from it in context.


kjv:

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

 

[keras]

no-one has free online access to the translation you are using to check the verse you quoted from it in context.

Unfortunately, yes, But only $9.99 gets you a cyber copy and the book can be a s low as $1 second-hand.
Google it, it is the Bible most recommended for study.

Grammer tenses in Bible Prophecy, do not mean it is past history. Prophecy is often Written that way, because of the assurance of its fulfilment.

All the translations do say; No one has gone up to heaven, there is only the one who came down from heaven, the Son of Man. CJB
This truth destroys the 'rapture to heaven' theory.
Pedantic arguments to negate the Words of Jesus, are just wrong and may rebound badly upon those who try it.

 

[Douggg]

All the translations do say; No one has gone up to heaven, there is only the one who came down from heaven, the Son of Man. CJB
This truth destroys the 'rapture to heaven' theory.

No, it doesn't affect that there will be a rapture to heaven.

In context, Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus who came to him secretly in the night. Jesus began talking about what it would take to enter the kingdom of God. By being borne again, which Nicodemus did not grasp that concept. And Nicodemus, after being told more, asked in wonderment "how can these things be?"

Then Jesus began extending his talk with Nicodemus, about it being a heavenly matter which since no man has been to heaven to be in on the plan, Nicodemus would have a hard time grasping it as well.

The plan of salvation in Christ, although revealed to the disciples themselves, neither them nor anyone understood it (until after the resurrection) because it was closed from their understanding....


Luke 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:

33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

 

[keras]

No, it doesn't affect that there will be a rapture to heaven.

In context, Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus who came to him secretly in the night. Jesus began talking about what it would take to enter the kingdom of God. By being borne again, which Nicodemus did not grasp that concept. And Nicodemus, after being told more, asked in wonderment "how can these things be?"

Then Jesus began extending his talk with Nicodemus, about it being a heavenly matter which since no man has been to heaven to be in on the plan, Nicodemus would have a hard time grasping it as well.

The plan of salvation in Christ, although revealed to the disciples themselves, neither them nor anyone understood it (until after the resurrection) because it was closed from their understanding....


Luke 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:

33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

I totally reject this attempt to subvert the plain Words of Jesus.
Luke 18:34 applies to you.

 

[Douggg]

I totally reject this attempt to subvert the plain Words of Jesus.
Luke 18:34 applies to you.

keras, read verse 31 and tell me who Jesus was speaking to ?

Luke 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:

33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.


Then read Luke 24:44-48, Jesus appearing to the disciples after the resurrection. In verse 44, Jesus is reminding them of what He spoke to them Luke 18 ahead of his crucifixion, but they did not understand it at that time.

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48 And ye are witnesses of these things.


Don't you get it? The plan of salvation was kept secret from anyone's understanding - including Nicodemus in John 3:12-21 - until after the resurrection. Jesus was not telling Nicodemus that no man can ever go to heaven in John 3:13. Jesus was explaining to Nicodemus, that His coming into the world was a heavenly matter, that Nicodemus would not at that point - would not understand.

Similarly, the disciples were baffled by other statements Jesus made - until after the resurrection - like John 14:1-6 of Jesus's promise to come and gather believers to himself (the rapture/resurrection event) and take them to heaven where he has prepared a place for them who believe in Him and are looking forward to the blessed hope.

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Where did Jesus go to ? Jesus went to heaven after being crucified and resurrected. And heaven is the place where them taken in rapture/resurrection will go.

 

[Douggg]

@keras

Furthermore, that the gospel of Salvation in Christ was hidden from anyone's understanding until after the resurrection is validated by Paul in 1Corinthians2:7-9.

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

 

[keras]

Jesus went to heaven after being crucified and resurrected. And heaven is the place where them taken in rapture/resurrection will go.

A nice idea, but it will never happen.
Bible teaching does not say the Christian peoples will go to live in heaven. You believe a falsehood and it may result in a loss for you, especially for teaching untruths.

We have a much better and fulfilling destiny:
The issue of a 'rapture to heaven' for the Church is far from being accepted by many people who seriously study this belief. So believers in that idea cannot just assume that a rapture will happen.

They say; We Christians are not appointed to wrath. And this is a true statement, but it doesn't in any way mean that God intends to remove His people to heaven, to avoid any hardships and testing to come.
I have a list of 25 scriptures that say how the Lord will protect His people during His wrath.

What people should consider, is what does God want of us Christians? What is our destiny?
Jesus gave us a Commission; to spread the Gospel, Matthew 28:19-20
Will He say: Nah, don't need to bother any more, come up here and do harp practice! Let the ungodly stew in their own juice.

NO; we are His witnesses, Isaiah 43:8-13, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations, Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16, also Ezekiel 39:27
THAT is our task, our destiny and our great privilege.

 

[Douggg]

Bible teaching does not say the Christian peoples will go to live in heaven.

keras, the idea is that Christians taken in the rapture/resurrection event will go be where-ever Jesus is, thereafter. When Jesus returns to this earth, He will be accompanied by those saints coming with Him, as well.

 

[keras]

keras, the idea is that Christians taken in the rapture/resurrection event will go be where-ever Jesus is, thereafter. When Jesus returns to this earth, He will be accompanied by those saints coming with Him, as well.

Those 'ideas' are wishful thinking, just fables; as Paul said people would fall for. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

The gathering event happens at the Return of Jesus, Matthew 24:31, 1 Thess 4:16-17 They go with Him to Jerusalem to be His priests and co-rulers. Revelation 5:9-10

There is no such thing as a 'rapture/resurrection' event. Only the souls of the GT martyrs are brought back to mortal life.

Please do not post horrible untruths like; the saints Returning with Christ. Matthew 16:27, Revelation 19:13 both clearly say Jesus will Return accompanied by the angel armies of heaven. Even your favourite KJV Bible says only angels at the Return.

Jude 1:14......I saw the Lord coming with His myriads of angels. Revised English Bible, the version that does not contradict other scriptures.

 

[JLB777]

There is the coming of Jesus in John 14:2-3 that Jesus promised to come and receive his followers to himself. That is the rapture/resurrection event for them looking for him to be taken to heaven where Jesus has prepared a place for us.

And there is another coming of Jesus commonly called the Second Coming. Which is His coming in Revelation 19 and Zechariah 14.

1. coming for the rapture/resurrection.
2. coming a second time to Jerusalem, i.e. Jesus's return, His Second Coming.

There is one Coming, Parousia visible return of the Lord, where He “comes again” to gather His people together at the resurrection and rapture,and destroy the wicked.

This is the Second Coming of Christ.

Paul refers to this as the Day of the Lord, the Day of Christ.

The Day of the Lord is referred to throughout scripture, and specifically in
1 & 2 Thessalonians where Paul contextually associates the Day of the Lord with the rapture and resurrection of the dead in Christ.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3

The coming of the Lord is when the resurrection of the dead in Christ take place, as well as the rapture.

• that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep

The coming of the Lord, is the day of the Lord, in which the wicked will be destroyed and not escape the sudden destruction that will come upon them.

• For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

Again, there is one coming of the Lord, which is also called the day of the Lord.

At His coming the dead in Christ will rise, and those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with Him. He then will destroy the wicked, including the antichrist.


If you want to believe the coming of the Lord, in which He gathers His people at the resurrection and rapture, then destroys the wicked is before the tribulation then that is your choice.






JLB

 

[JLB777]

To those who eagerly wait for Him". People who use this verse to imply Jesus's return, don't take into account - the above verse applies only to Christians who are expectant of the rapture/resurrection event.

Yes, the resurrection and rapture occur at the coming of the Lord, on the day of the Lord.


The wicked are destroyed, and the Church is gathered together unto the Lord.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

 

[JLB777]

There is no "last Day after the tribulation".

I never said anything about the last day after the tribulation.

The Church is resurrected on the last day.

And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:40


No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44


The resurrection occurs before the rapture.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15


The resurrection and rapture occurs on the last day, at His coming.


The destruction of the wicked including the antichrist also occurs at His coming, which is the day of the Lord.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8


Resurrection, Rapture, and the destruction of the antichrist all occur at His coming.




JLB

 

[Douggg]

Please do not post horrible untruths like; the saints Returning with Christ. Matthew 16:27, Revelation 19:13 both clearly say Jesus will Return accompanied by the angel armies of heaven. Even your favourite KJV Bible says only angels at the Return.

Jude 1:14......I saw the Lord coming with His myriads of angels. Revised English Bible, the version that does not contradict other scriptures.

So this sounds like angels to you.... ?

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

From earlier verses in Revelation 19, kjv ....

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.


keras, the angels are not the wife of Christ.

 

[dfw69]

There is one Coming, Parousia visible return of the Lord, where He “comes again” to gather His people together at the resurrection and rapture,and destroy the wicked.

But that not true nor can u find any evidence that all these events takes place together in one coming in scripture.

This is the Second Coming of Christ.

Paul refers to this as the Day of the Lord, the Day of Christ.

Are you sure the day of the lord and the day of Christ refer to the same thing?

The Day of the Lord is referred to throughout scripture, and specifically in
1 & 2 Thessalonians where Paul contextually associates the Day of the Lord with the rapture and resurrection of the dead in Christ

That’s not correct

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Yes the coming of our lord for his church

But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3

Yes there is a time and season an appointment for the day of lord like a thief for those who belong to the night but if you read on you clearly see Paul says we are not appointed that day we are appointed salvation we have an appointment a time and season for salvation which clearly teaches 2 different appointments 2 different time and season

and he clearly teaches we are not of the night so that day day will surprise us we belong to the light and to the day

Then he says we are not appointed wrath which is a specific time and season a specific event to take place at an appointed time and season

The coming of the Lord is when the resurrection of the dead in Christ take place, as well as the rapture.

• that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep

Yes the coming of the lord for his church

The coming of the Lord, is the day of the Lord, in which the wicked will be destroyed and not escape the sudden destruction that will come upon them.

No 2 different comings with 2 different outcomes and 2 different time and seasons one appointment is for those of the day one is for those of the night

• For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

This clearly describes the coming like a thief for those in the night that is clearly a different kind coming specific for those who belong in the darkness and asleep at night

The labor pains upon a woman clearly points to the timeframe when Israel is about to give birth to the man child (144000)

Again, there is one coming of the Lord, which is also called the day of the Lord.

Nope

At His coming the dead in Christ will rise, and those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with Him. He then will destroy the wicked, including the antichrist.

You are combining two different times and season , for at an appointed time salvation will come first for those of the day living in the light and at an appointed time judgement for those asleep in the night

If you want to believe the coming of the Lord, in which He gathers His people at the resurrection and rapture, then destroys the wicked is before the tribulation then that is your choice






JLB

He has chosen wisely

 

[dfw69]

Yes, the resurrection and rapture occur at the coming of the Lord, on the day of the Lord.

The coming of the lord is for the church

The day of the lord is his coronation over the government’s of the world

The wicked are destroyed, and the Church is gathered together unto the Lord.

The wicked are indeed judge and condemn for crimes against the law
The saints are saved Jews
The tares are wicked jews
The wheat are saved Jews

The church will not exist during this time they are long gone

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

During this time the corrupted bodies will put on incorruptible bodies in other word the dead decayed bodies in Christ will be transformed into incorruptible bodies
And the mortal bodies will be transformed into immortal bodies

We will be clothed with the body of Christ we will be like him when he appears for us

If Jesus can enter heaven and we will be transformed like he is , then it’s obvious we can enter heaven too with these new spiritual bodies we have received for being his children by faith

 

[Timtofly]

I never said anything about the last day after the tribulation.

The Church is resurrected on the last day.

And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:40


No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44


The resurrection occurs before the rapture.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15


The resurrection and rapture occurs on the last day, at His coming.


The destruction of the wicked including the antichrist also occurs at His coming, which is the day of the Lord.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8


Resurrection, Rapture, and the destruction of the antichrist all occur at His coming.




JLB

John 6 is about the day of the Cross. All the dead were raised out of Abraham's bosom. They ascended with Jesus on Sunday. That is when they were presented to God.

There is no last day resurrection before the tribulation, nor after the tribulation in the future.

There is no destruction of the AC at the Second Coming.

"And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

At Armageddon all of Satan's empire is destroyed. But that is years after the second coming. Satan cannot even set up his empire until after the final harvest is over.

The majority of the church is waiting in Paradise for the 6th Seal to be opened. That is when they meet the church currently alive in the firmament, for all the earth to see. The church is glorified at that event, the putting on of the "robe of white" as mentioned by John.

 

[JLB777]

But that not true nor can u find any evidence that all these events takes place together in one coming in scripture.



Are you sure the day of the lord and the day of Christ refer to the same thing?

That’s not correct

Yes the coming of our lord for his church

Yes there is a time and season an appointment for the day of lord like a thief for those who belong to the night but if you read on you clearly see Paul says we are not appointed that day we are appointed salvation we have an appointment a time and season for salvation which clearly teaches 2 different appointments 2 different time and season

and he clearly teaches we are not of the night so that day day will surprise us we belong to the light and to the day

Then he says we are not appointed wrath which is a specific time and season a specific event to take place at an appointed time and season

Yes the coming of the lord for his church

No 2 different comings with 2 different outcomes and 2 different time and seasons one appointment is for those of the day one is for those of the night

This clearly describes the coming like a thief for those in the night that is clearly a different kind coming specific for those who belong in the darkness and asleep at night

The labor pains upon a woman clearly points to the timeframe when Israel is about to give birth to the man child (144000)

Nope

You are combining two different times and season , for at an appointed time salvation will come first for those of the day living in the light and at an appointed time judgement for those asleep in the night

He has chosen wisely

There is only His coming found in scripture.

If the scripture said His “comings” then you may have a point. But since the scripture refers to His coming, then you don’t.

Here is what the truth , the Lord Jesus Christ, teaches us about the resurrection and rapture.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15

Here we are plainly taught that the resurrection comes before the rapture, at
His coming.

Two major things are taught here by the Lord:

1. The resurrection of the dead in Christ, precedes the rapture.
2. The resurrection and rapture both occur at His coming.

• that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

JLB

 

[JLB777]

The coming of the lord is for the church

The day of the lord is his coronation over the government’s of the world

Thank you for making my point.


Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” Matthew 24:3

Jesus describes His coming for the Church. This is the day of the Lord, in which He reigns over His enemies. This teaching is from the prophecy of Zechariah 14.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31





Case Closed.





JLB

 

[dfw69]

Thank you for making my point.

I didn’t lol

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” Matthew 24:3

Referring to his second coming to rule in Jerusalem

Jesus describes His coming for the Church. This is the day of the Lord, in which He reigns over His enemies. This teaching is from the prophecy of Zechariah 14.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31





Case Closed.





JLB

This is not the church bro

 

[dfw69]

There is His coming found in scripture.

If the scripture said His “comings” then you may have a point. But since the scripture refers to His coming, then you don’t.

Hey JLB how’s your day going? Hope all is well

But that is not how scripture works it describes 2 comings and described two different ways ..not one because it never describes one coming

Here is what the truth , the Lord Jesus Christ teaches us about the resurrection and rapture.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

Here we are plainly taught that the resurrection comes before the rapture, at His coming.

Two major things are taught here by the Lord:

1. The resurrection of the dead in Christ, precedes the rapture.
2. The resurrection and rapture both occur at His coming.

• that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

JLB

Yes but again that is the rapture coming notice no mention of judgement wrath or coronation or coming like a thief here?