There is no Rapture

[keras]

THE RAPTURE – when will it happen?

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 This is a word from the Lord; those of His people who are still alive when the Lord comes, will have no advantage over those who have died.
...when Gods trumpet sounds and Jesus descends from heaven, firstly the Christian dead will rise, then we who are still alive will join them.
Thus, we shall always be with the Lord. [on the earth]

Zechariah 14:4-5 On that Day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.....the Lord will appear, attended by all His holy ones. [Angels and those gathered to Him; Matthew 24:31]

Scripture reads clearly – the so called rapture is actually just a gathering, which will occur when Jesus Christ returns at the end of the Great Tribulation.
The doctrine that His “church” people are simply waiting to be whisked away into heaven tends to produce a carefree and careless attitude in those awaiting Christ’s Return. Tragically, millions are now being set up to ‘simply believe in Jesus and don’t worry about anything else”. This is short-sighted, irresponsible thinking.

Many verses show that Christianity involves active effort, at the very least “watch and pray always”.

Many of the Bible’s greatest prophecies culminate in the Return of Jesus. This will be the most wonderful event that the world has seen, but what precedes it will be very different – terrible disasters and tribulations will engulf every society. It will take great trust and faith in Gods power to hold steady until the end.

Luke 18:8 When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?

God wants you to rely on Him, to trust Him completely. In the near future , when others are gripped by fear, uncertainty and confusion and have no idea of where to turn to for answers, God does not want His people to agonise over what may happen next.

Luke 21:18-19 Not a hair of your head will be lost. By standing firm you will win yourselves life.

Revelation 13:10 ..... this calls for the endurance and faithfulness of Gods people.



Matthew 24:30-31 And then shall appear.... the son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. He shall send His angels with the sound of the great trumpet, and they shall gather His faithful people from heaven, [the souls of the martyrs] and the four corners of the earth. [every person who kept their trust in God]

Daniel 7:27 The kingly power and sovereignty of all the kingdoms under heaven will be given to the Holy people of the Most High. Their power will last forever and every realm will serve and obey them.
Reference; Revised English Bible, some verses abridged 0

 

[Douggg]

THE RAPTURE – when will it happen?

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 This is a word from the Lord; those of His people who are still alive when the Lord comes, will have no advantage over those who have died.
...when Gods trumpet sounds and Jesus descends from heaven, firstly the Christian dead will rise, then we who are still alive will join them.
Thus, we shall always be with the Lord. [on the earth]

Zechariah 14:4-5 On that Day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.....the Lord will appear, attended by all His holy ones. [Angels and those gathered to Him; Matthew 24:31]

Scripture reads clearly – the so called rapture is actually just a gathering, which will occur when Jesus Christ returns at the end of the Great Tribulation.
The doctrine that His “church” people are simply waiting to be whisked away into heaven tends to produce a carefree and careless attitude in those awaiting Christ’s Return. Tragically, millions are now being set up to ‘simply believe in Jesus and don’t worry about anything else”. This is short-sighted, irresponsible thinking.

Many verses show that Christianity involves active effort, at the very least “watch and pray always”.

Many of the Bible’s greatest prophecies culminate in the Return of Jesus. This will be the most wonderful event that the world has seen, but what precedes it will be very different – terrible disasters and tribulations will engulf every society. It will take great trust and faith in Gods power to hold steady until the end.

Luke 18:8 When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?

God wants you to rely on Him, to trust Him completely. In the near future , when others are gripped by fear, uncertainty and confusion and have no idea of where to turn to for answers, God does not want His people to agonise over what may happen next.

Luke 21:18-19 Not a hair of your head will be lost. By standing firm you will win yourselves life.

Revelation 13:10 ..... this calls for the endurance and faithfulness of Gods people.



Matthew 24:30-31 And then shall appear.... the son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. He shall send His angels with the sound of the great trumpet, and they shall gather His faithful people from heaven, [the souls of the martyrs] and the four corners of the earth. [every person who kept their trust in God]

Daniel 7:27 The kingly power and sovereignty of all the kingdoms under heaven will be given to the Holy people of the Most High. Their power will last forever and every realm will serve and obey them.
Reference; Revised English Bible, some verses abridged 0

keras, go back and read my post #253. It is short. But it proves that the armies in heaven that will follow Jesus are the saints. They are the wife of Jesus and cannot be the angels. Those saints are the rapture/resurrection saints who were spared having to go through the great tribulation by being taken to heaven.

 

[JulieB67]

Yes but again that is the rapture coming notice no mention of judgement wrath or coronation or coming like a thief here?

The problem many have is they don't read further into chapter 5 to get the complete picture. We have to remember there were no chapters. These are letters/manuscripts. The verses have to be read together to not lose context. Paul is talking about the same subject it hasn't changed.

The subject originally in 1st Thes 4 is about where the dead are. He's comforting them about that subject, not a pretrib rapture he states,


I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise [precede] them which are asleep."

Notice it states "coming of the Lord". One singular.

The rest should be still read all together,

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

He continues, the subject hasn't finished,
I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord cometh as a thief in the night."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

So we can definitely see that God's wrath will happen during his coming -the day of the Lord. And the day of the Lord is the very same event of chapter 4. The subject doesn't change. He tells them comfort one another with these words but of the times and seasons you have no need that I write you because you know perfectly the day of the Lord cometh as a thief in the night. The thief analogy is because people will be saying "peace and safety" and then bam destruction.

But after all this, Paul still had to address this subject again in his second letter to clear up their confusion on the timing and then he nails down the timing. The subject being our gathering back to him. Which happens when he returns.

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

Again, one coming and our gathering back to him. He includes himself and them.


II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, that the day of Christ is at hand."


II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Paul can't make it any clearer that our gathering back to him will not happen until.....

And this verse also proves he will only return one more time,

Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

I believed once as you did but it's not biblical. Sure we can take verses out of context and try and separate his coming into two parts but it's not read that way if we read it verse by verse and chapter by chapter as well as book by book in this case.

The timing is very important because Christ and Paul tells us to not be deceived by any means. A fake Christ/Satan and co will arrive first. Christ returns afterwards. One has to be prepared and ready for that fact if it happens in their generation.

 

[Timtofly]

keras, go back and read my post #253. It is short. But it proves that the armies in heaven that will follow Jesus are the saints. They are the wife of Jesus and cannot be the angels. Those saints are the rapture/resurrection saints who were spared having to go through the great tribulation by being taken to heaven.

That is why Revelation 19 is not the Second Coming. The Second Coming is with angels. The sixth Seal symbolizes the angels coming to earth as the stars falling to earth.

The angels are not cleaning up at Armageddon. The birds are doing that.

Jesus and the angels will be on earth from the 6th Seal to the 7th Trumpet.

 

[keras]

keras, go back and read my post #253. It is short. But it proves that the armies in heaven that will follow Jesus are the saints. They are the wife of Jesus and cannot be the angels. Those saints are the rapture/resurrection saints who were spared having to go through the great tribulation by being taken to heaven.

What a pathetic and tenuous thread to hang a doctrine like the 'rapture to heaven' on!
Any righteous person or angel can wear white robes.

We are told how the faithful Christians are kept form experiencing the Great Trib; they are taken to a place of safety, on earth; for that 1260 day period. Revelation 12:14

Jesus and the angels will be on earth from the 6th Seal to the 7th Trumpet.

How you come up with such wacky and weird notions, I cannot fathom.
Try to keep your outbursts within what the Bible Prophets actually say.

Jesus will Return AFTER all the wrath of God is over; Revelation 13:1, Matthew 24:29-30

 

[Timtofly]

What a pathetic and tenuous thread to hang a doctrine like the 'rapture to heaven' on!
Any righteous person or angel can wear white robes.

We are told how the faithful Christians are kept form experiencing the Great Trib; they are taken to a place of safety, on earth; for that 1260 day period. Revelation 12:14

How you come up with such wacky and weird notions, I cannot fathom.
Try to keep your outbursts within what the Bible Prophets actually say.

Jesus will Return AFTER all the wrath of God is over; Revelation 13:1, Matthew 24:29-30

So the redeemed cannot go to Paradise in heaven, and Jesus cannot come to earth per Matthew 13, Matthew 24, Matthew 25, Zechariah 14, and many other Scriptures?

Just pointing out that Jesus declares He and the angels are coming to earth. John pointed out it was at the 6th Seal.

No where does it state Jesus leaves earth before the 7th Trumpet.

 

[Douggg]

What a pathetic and tenuous thread to hang a doctrine like the 'rapture to heaven' on!
Any righteous person or angel can wear white robes.

keras, please try to control your emotions and deal with the text.

Angels are not the wife of Jesus. The armies are in heaven, and they follow Jesus, and are clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

_____________________________________________________________________________________

keras, please do a copy and paste of verses 7, 8, 14 from the Revised English Bible that you are using.

 

[dfw69]

The problem many have is they don't read further into chapter 5 to get the complete picture. We have to remember there were no chapters. These are letters/manuscripts. The verses have to be read together to not lose context. Paul is talking about the same subject it hasn't changed.

The subject originally in 1st Thes 4 is about where the dead are. He's comforting them about that subject, not a pretrib rapture he states,


I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise [precede] them which are asleep."

Notice it states "coming of the Lord". One singular.

The rest should be still read all together,

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

Hi Julie … but if you read carefully, u can see this specific description about the resurrection and rapture that ends in comfort for those that have died will not miss the rapture to meet Jesus … with no mention of the coming back to earth nor going to heaven it just says we will be the lord

It’s then assumed we return to earth
But Paul teaches that our transformation from corrupt bodies to incorruptible bodies and mortal to immortal take place at this time and that can only be for a specific purpose… the only reason to recieve spiritual bodies and become like Jesus to become the children of god is to live with god and enter heaven like Jesus did

He continues, the subject hasn't finished,
I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

Not quite , actually if you read this carefully and see that first Paul mentions
The times and seasons (plural) implying more that one time and season that he taught this church

The times and seasons refers to the Jewish holy days that coincide with the seasons ,spring summer and fall harvest and feast days . There are 3 harvest barley in the spring wheat in the summer and grape harvest lands in the fall

But if you read carefully you can see that Paul first describes the day of the lord which is at an appointed time and a specific time and season . it’s a terrible time nothing joyous about this time for those in the night it’s a day of wrath

But then Paul teaches about another time and season where we need not worry about that time and season because we are appointed salvation not wrath which is another time and season

Just because he mentioned it second does not mean it’s going to take place in that order lol

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

So we can definitely see that God's wrath will happen during his coming -the day of the Lord. And the day of the Lord is the very same event of chapter 4. The subject doesn't change. He tells them comfort one another with these words but of the times and seasons you have no need that I write you because you know perfectly the day of the Lord cometh as a thief in the night. The thief analogy is because people will be saying "peace and safety" and then bam destruction.

See what u may not understand is that peace and safety and woman with travail refer to specific things and a specific time and season and these have nothing to do with the church but is for Jews and Jerusalem seeking a messianic age , it is them that will experience those things many years from now

I notice you failed to put the rest of what Paul teaches about not being appointed that day because we belong to the day not the night so our appointment is salvation which again is a different time and season

But after all this, Paul still had to address this subject again in his second letter to clear up their confusion on the timing and then he nails down the timing. The subject being our gathering back to him. Which happens when he returns.

Because there were false teachers even then teaching lies that the day of the lord is upon them putting fear upon them and making them think they missed the rapture

Perhaps these false teachers where in conflict with Paul even then trying to discredit his labor and teachings about the rapture

And during this time there was lots of persecution on the early church with ceasar Nero but who know what current events were taking place that would put fear in the church to think they were about to go through great tribulation and face the antichrist

The temple had not been destroyed yet so it seemed more possible in their day so Paul reassures them they are not about to face the man of sin nor enter into the wrath of god

Today we still have those same type of teachers going against Paul’s writing teaching those same type of things denying the rapture putting fear on the church saying they are going to go through the wrath of god and great tribulation and even calling them all kinds of terrible names like liars false teachers deceivers wolves blasphemers heretics idol worshipers pagans the list goes on and on

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

Again, one coming and our gathering back to him. He includes himself and them.

He’s addressing our gathering because of the lies the false teachers were saying that the day of the lord was already upon them

So they feared missing the rapture or possibly those false teachers taught there was no rapture and the wrath is now upon them to testify against Paul that he is a false apostle

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, that the day of Christ is at hand."

Now he comforts the church that the day of the lord is not at hand as the false teachers say


II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Now he describes that day which by the description is going to take some time to accomplish so nothing to fear in their lifetime concerning the antichrist and wrath of god

Paul can't make it any clearer that our gathering back to him will not happen until.....

No actually he say that day will not come referring to the day of the lord in which in the previous letter says we are not appointed

And this verse also proves he will only return one more time,

Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

I believed once as you did but it's not biblical. Sure we can take verses out of context and try and separate his coming into two parts but it's not read that way if we read it verse by verse and chapter by chapter as well as book by book in this case.

The timing is very important because Christ and Paul tells us to not be deceived by any means. A fake Christ/Satan and co will arrive first. Christ returns afterwards. One has to be prepared and ready for that fact if it happens in their generation.

Paul tells us not to be deceived that the day of the lord is at hand as if we are going through the wrath of god to live in fear of those things

Paul taught not to be deceived by false teachers teaching the church they may have the wrath to fear and the day of the lord to fear
Which is a lie

The wrath falls upon the man of sin and Paul clearly teaches we are not appointed that day and age

 

[keras]

Angels are not the wife of Jesus.

Of course not, But unless you can provide a scripture that actually says the Church will be raptured to heaven, then those who accompany Jesus at HIs Return, can only be angels.
THEN Jesus will gather His faithful peoples and the Marriage supper will take place.

The REBible is the most accurate and easily understood translation available. It is Satans ploy to promote other versions, especially the error ridden King James Version.

But Paul teaches that our transformation from corrupt bodies to incorruptible bodies and mortal to immortal take place at this time

This is wrong and is an assumption made from a preconceived belief.
1 Corinthians 15:50-56, is a prophecy about what happens at the Great White Throne Judgment. Proved by how it is only then that Death is no more; as per Revelation 21:4

Also, none of the specific Prophesies about the Glorious Return, mention a general body change to those who remain. Only for the GT martyrs.
There WILL be death in the Millennium. Isaiah 65:20

 

[Douggg]

Of course not, But unless you can provide a scripture that actually says the Church will be raptured to heaven, then those who accompany Jesus at HIs Return, can only be angels.

keras, there have already been multiple posts in this thread proving that there will be a rapture/resurrection to heaven for believers in God's promises already in this thread. There is no reason to repeat - simply because you are wrestling with the fact that verse 7,8,14 combine to show that the armies in heaven that follow Jesus, clothed in clean, white, linen are the saints not angels, but Jesus's wife - the raptured and resurrected saints.

Correct your doctrine.

And please do a copy and paste of verses 7, 8, 14 from the Revised English Bible that you are using so others can evaluate it.

 

[JLB777]

I didn’t lol

Referring to his second coming to rule in Jerusalem

This is not the church bro

More of your opinion with no scripture, while you ignore the word of the Lord.

You seem to have no interest in the truth: the word of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Please address the following scriptures and share with us what you disagree with.


Here it is again, the truth —


There is only His coming found in scripture.

If the scripture said His “comings” then you may have a point. But since the scripture refers to His coming, then you don’t.

Here is what the truth , the Lord Jesus Christ, teaches us about the resurrection and rapture.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15

Here we are plainly taught that the resurrection comes before the rapture, at
His coming.

Two major things are taught here by the Lord:

1. The resurrection of the dead in Christ, precedes the rapture.
2. The resurrection and rapture both occur at His coming.

• that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

we who are alive and remain = Rapture
those who are asleep = Resurrection


Both these occur at His coming, which is called the Day of the Lord.



JLB

 

[Trivalee]

One fact from Scripture completely refutes the idea of a pre-rapture. That fact is that the Antichrist will defeat and execute Christians. This fact is stated several times in the Book of Daniel and Revelation (Daniel 7:21, Revelation 13:7, Revelation 20:4). If Christians are persecuted and killed during the reign of the Antichrist, then there can be no pre-rapture. That would otherwise be a clear contradiction.

Jesus will only return once and that is at the end of the reign of the Antichrist.

I don't know of any church father who believed in a pre-rapture, nor do I know anyone who believed in dispensationalism.

When you say "pre-rapture" do you mean pre-tribulation or what, please clarify.

 

[Trivalee]

keras, there have already been multiple posts in this thread proving that there will be a rapture/resurrection to heaven for believers in God's promises already in this thread. There is no reason to repeat - simply because you are wrestling with the fact that verse 7,8,14 combine to show that the armies in heaven that follow Jesus, clothed in clean, white, linen are the saints not angels, but Jesus's wife - the raptured and resurrected saints.

Correct your doctrine.

And please do a copy and paste of verses 7, 8, 14 from the Revised English Bible that you are using so others can evaluate it.

I completely agree. With regard to the Lord's retinue in Rev 19:14, it is quite conceivable they will comprise angels and immortalized saints. Didn't Jesus say that in the resurrection, the church will be like the angels (Matthew 22:30)?

 

[dfw69]

More of your opinion with no scripture, while you ignore the word of the Lord.

It’s so obvious that it seems you are ignoring the word of the lord

You seem to have no interest in the truth: the word of the Lord Jesus Christ.

We are the light of the world and we walk in the truth and are of the day we are not walking to deceive to lie to hide the truth from each other so this is a false accusation which you guys love to do

Please address the following scriptures and share with us what you disagree with.

I have

Here it is again, the truth —


There is only His coming found in scripture.

This is a lie if you knowingly teach what is false

For there is his coming for the church described by Paul (true)

And his coming day of the lord also described by Paul (true)

Both described differently from each other (true)

At 2 different times and seasons (true)

With 2 different comings and two
different outcomes (true)

This is the truth and as obvious as day

The fact that there are 2 coming one for the church one on the day of the lord prove that there is not ‘one coming’ as you falsely teach

I don’t need to prove a rapture happens before the day of the lord as Paul teaches , for when the event happens it will testify of itself that Paul was correct and a true prophet of god

If the scripture said His “comings” then you may have a point. But since the scripture refers to His coming, then you don’t.

If he spoke of his one coming he would have described both events in scripture but he did not therefore there are 2 coming one to gather his children one to destroy mystery Babylon reign of terror

he in fact described 2 comings one coming for the church one coming day of judgment

Here is what the truth , the Lord Jesus Christ, teaches us about the resurrection and rapture.

Yes the resurrection happens first then the rapture but Paul teaches this takes place at one specific coming which is for the dead in Christ and those alive at the time it takes place with no mention of the day of the lord events taking place at this time

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15

Here we are plainly taught that the resurrection comes before the rapture, at
His coming.

Two major things are taught here by the Lord:

1. The resurrection of the dead in Christ, precedes the rapture.
2. The resurrection and rapture both occur at His coming.

• that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

we who are alive and remain = Rapture
those who are asleep = Resurrection

Yes agree but Paul is referring to one specific coming here with no mention of the day of the lord events taking place at this time ….understand?

Both these occur at His coming, which is called the Day of the Lord.



JLB

No the day of the lord happens at the last day of human government when Jesus returns to rule over them forever with no mention of a rapture of the dead in Christ nor the mention of those alive transformed into immortals

But again Paul clearly states in
1 Thessalonians 5 that there are 2 appointments ..two time and season
One appointment for the day of the lord for those asleep at night and one appointment for those awake in the day

And says that those of the day will not be appointed the wrath of god , we are appointed salvation

Thus put on the helmet, the hope of salvation…

 

[Trivalee]

If the rapture does not happen and instead Christ shows up on Earth to "fix things" they will have no problem at all since - Christ is here in that scenario - explaining everything. Your scenario has no downside. There has already been 1260 years of dark ages persecution of the saints (as we also see in Dan 7 and Rev 12 and actual history) and you don't see Christians running out the doors.

By contrast the Matt 24 fake second coming that is predicted as happening before the real rapture event will be pretty easy to fake if rapture of all the saints both living and dead -- to heaven - does not have to be part of the fake event. A much more likely "downside" to getting this one wrong according to Matt 24.

Correction: the dead cannot be raptured, instead they rise or resurrect. Rapture is used to describe the process whereby a mortal can circumvent physical death to attain immortality. That is why death is mocked "O death, where is thy sting" in Hosea 13:14 and paraphrased by Apostle Paul in 1 Cor 15:55. Any saint that dies physically cannot be raptured but will be resurrected. For example, Jesus Christ was resurrected and ascended to heaven - not raptured to heaven.

 

[Douggg]

I completely agree. With regard to the Lord's retinue in Rev 19:14, it is quite conceivable they will comprise angels and immortalized saints. Didn't Jesus say that in the resurrection, the church will be like the angels (Matthew 22:30)?

I agree that there will most likely be angels coming with Jesus and the immortalized saints.

 

[dfw69]

Correction: the dead cannot be raptured, instead they rise or resurrect. Rapture is used to describe the process whereby a mortal can circumvent physical death to attain immortality. That is why death is mocked "O death, where is thy sting" in Hosea 13:14 and paraphrased by Apostle Paul in 1 Cor 15:55. Any saint that dies physically cannot be raptured but will be resurrected. For example, Jesus Christ was resurrected and ascended to heaven - not raptured to heaven.

The dead can be raptured by your definition that is after their resurrection they put on immortality right?


Jesus children will be resurrected and ascended to heaven like jesus did .

both, those that died and are resurrected immortal and those who were once mortal but have been transformed immortal at the second trumpet, will ascend to heaven

He made the way to the father through his adoption

In 1st Corinthians 15:53-55 he says the dead put on incorruptible bodies thus making their resurrection immortal circumventing physical death (that is, if they were to have been resurrected to mortals) to attain immortality

 

[Trivalee]

You are expressing the Dispensationalist view that God has one plan for Christians and another for Jews. This seems to set up a two-tiered scheme of salvation. There is no such thing in the Bible.

In the Parables of Christ, there are only those who go to heaven and those who are cast out. There are only two destinies possible for each soul, there is no third possibility.

But he's right that "the Body of Christ will go to heaven". It implies as Paul said many times in scripture that, a Jew must accept Christ as Messiah to be saved. IOW, the Body of Christ comprises both believing Jews and gentile, isn't it?

 

[Trivalee]

But after the 1260th day, he will lose his absolute authority, and other political leaders, other nations, will challenge him, which is what I believe leads to Armageddon. In other words, I believe the 3.5 years was meant to describe Antichrist's period of absolute power, after which there is this extensive mobilization of the world to Armageddon.

I'm not dogmatic on this. It's my theory of how this should be interpreted.

There's no record of any "political leader or nation(s)" that will challenge the antichrist. Secondly, scripture didn't say he will lose his power at the end of his little season (1260 days); what happens is that he is confronted by a Commander he can never defeat - the Lord of hosts. Actually, it is the Antichrist that mobilises the people of the world under his control to Armageddon to confront the Lord for what he hopes would be his opportunity to overcome his archenemy.

But don't take my word for it. Let's look at scripture.

• In Rev 16:12-16 - after the 6th angel pours out his vial, the river Euphrates dries up. Next, the dragon (Satan) releases 3 lying spirits like frogs through the AC and False Prophet. And their job? "For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. v-14". Verse 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And who is on the horse here? Jesus, the King of kings and Lord of lords (Rev 19:16) and the Lord's army (v-14) come with him from heaven. There's no record of mortal armies fighting with the Lord at Armageddon. The world's army is for the AC and is crushed in defeat and given to the fowls of the air for dinner (v-18).

 

[Trivalee]

The dead can be raptured by your definition that is after their resurrection they put on immortality right?

Jesus children will be resurrected and ascended to heaven like jesus did .

both, those that died and are resurrected immortal and those who were once mortal but have been transformed immortal at the second trumpet, will ascend to heaven

He made the way to the father through his adoption

In 1st Corinthians 15:53-55 he says the dead put on incorruptible bodies thus making their resurrection immortal circumventing physical death (that is, if they were to have been resurrected to mortals) to attain immortality

Go back and read my definition of what 'rapture' means. The dead cannot be raptured, instead, they rise and ascend to meet the Lord. How can the 'dead' circumvent physical death? Are you sure you understand what you are saying?