There is no Rapture

[Emun]

One fact from Scripture completely refutes the idea of a pre-rapture. That fact is that the Antichrist will defeat and execute Christians. This fact is stated several times in the Book of Daniel and Revelation (Daniel 7:21, Revelation 13:7, Revelation 20:4). If Christians are persecuted and killed during the reign of the Antichrist, then there can be no pre-rapture. That would otherwise be a clear contradiction.

Jesus will only return once and that is at the end of the reign of the Antichrist.

I don't know of any church father who believed in a pre-rapture, nor do I know anyone who believed in dispensationalism.

 

[RandyPNW]

One fact from Scripture completely refutes the idea of a pre-rapture. That fact is that the Antichrist will defeat and execute Christians. This fact is stated several times in the Book of Daniel and Revelation (Daniel 7:21, Revelation 13:7, Revelation 20:4). If Christians are persecuted and killed during the reign of the Antichrist, then there can be no pre-rapture. That would otherwise be a clear contradiction.

Jesus will only return once and that is at the end of the reign of the Antichrist.

I don't know of any church father who believed in a pre-rapture, nor do I know anyone who believed in dispensationalism.

You're absolutely correct. I will go even farther to state that Daniel 7 is the only major treatment of the Antichrist of the last days in the OT. And so, NT eschatology is completely built upon the foundation of Dan 7, where the Son of Man comes to obtain his Kingdom on earth by destroying the 4th Beast in its modern form, a coalition of 10 nations, 7 kings, and 1 Antichrist.

Paul's letter of 2 Thessalonians makes this very argument, probably based on this very passage in Daniel, that Christ cannot have come back for his Church and to establish his Kingdom because Antichrist must appear first. It is when Christ comes back that Antichrist will be destroyed "by the breath of his mouth," ie by his word. And so, Antichrist's coming must precede the Return of Christ.

Dispensationalists completely ignore this and reject this, out of fear that the Church will suffer in an Antichristian world. But that has been true since the early Church. There have been many Antichrists already!

So Jesus did not come to call us out of this world simply because nations fall on hard times. We are to remain as a testimony and endure "to the end." Thanks for teaching it properly!

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

You're absolutely correct. I will go even farther to state that Daniel 7 is the only major treatment of the Antichrist of the last days in the OT. And so, NT eschatology is completely built upon the foundation of Dan 7, where the Son of Man comes to obtain his Kingdom on earth by destroying the 4th Beast in its modern form, a coalition of 10 nations, 7 kings, and 1 Antichrist.

Paul's letter of 2 Thessalonians makes this very argument, probably based on this very passage in Daniel, that Christ cannot have come back for his Church and to establish his Kingdom because Antichrist must appear first. It is when Christ comes back that Antichrist will be destroyed "by the breath of his mouth," ie by his word. And so, Antichrist's coming must precede the Return of Christ.

Dispensationalists completely ignore this and reject this, out of fear that the Church will suffer in an Antichristian world. But that has been true since the early Church. There have been many Antichrists already!

So Jesus did not come to call us out of this world simply because nations fall on hard times. We are to remain as a testimony and endure "to the end." Thanks for teaching it properly!

hi since these events are still future you have a right to your opinion but until it is fact you have to hold on to your declaration of being right. I am a futurist and believe in the rapture of the church. Now those who are beheaded in the tribulation for their testimony of Jesus very well could be a category of saints who turn to Jesus when the tribulation has begun after a rapture of the church would have already happened.

 

[BobRyan]

One fact from Scripture completely refutes the idea of a pre-rapture. That fact is that the Antichrist will defeat and execute Christians. This fact is stated several times in the Book of Daniel and Revelation (Daniel 7:21, Revelation 13:7, Revelation 20:4). If Christians are persecuted and killed during the reign of the Antichrist, then there can be no pre-rapture. That would otherwise be a clear contradiction.

Jesus will only return once and that is at the end of the reign of the Antichrist.

I don't know of any church father who believed in a pre-rapture, nor do I know anyone who believed in dispensationalism.

I think you meant to say "the idea of a pre-trib-rapture is refuted by the antichrist's persectution of Christians in Dan 7 and in Rev 13 (and in Rev 12).

But you could also add this from Matt 24

vs 29-31 "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days...



29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days ....30 the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Happens after the tribulation

 

[d taylor]

-
​

People will come to believe in the Messiah after the rapture.

 

[Blade]

One fact from Scripture completely refutes the idea of a pre-rapture. That fact is that the Antichrist will defeat and execute Christians. This fact is stated several times in the Book of Daniel and Revelation (Daniel 7:21, Revelation 13:7, Revelation 20:4). If Christians are persecuted and killed during the reign of the Antichrist, then there can be no pre-rapture. That would otherwise be a clear contradiction.

Jesus will only return once and that is at the end of the reign of the Antichrist.

I don't know of any church father who believed in a pre-rapture, nor do I know anyone who believed in dispensationalism.

Hi I disagree I just watched a believer how is Jewish and knows speaks Hebrew and oddly was talking about the Rapture. Now he kinda went deep from Daniel all the way to Rev talked about things most just oddly live out. Talked about the wrath of God form the beginning to Rev. Anyway

No where is it written that once the Church is gone since it was never appointed to wrath and He also said " I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." No where does it say no one will come to Christ. We have the 144k we have the Angel preaching.. ooh wait in all this wheres the Church? Now for me the AntiChrist can never will never have any power over the Church. Greater is HE thats GOD CHRIST in you then he thats Satan thats in the world. And He Christ aka GOD through Christ gave YOU and ME hello CHURCH all power all authority over the enemy and NOTHING shall by any means hurt you.

So as one comes down Church will go up. Have those that do not believe He is coming any moment ..just what did you really mean when you said "you come quickly?" If you believe He comes at the end as in no rapture then when the Antichrist shows up.. just look at your watch you know when He will becoming. No quickly about it. Yet oddly Paul who learned everything saw everything from Christ said "we which remain". He knew he would be apart of it like every believer would. What no one on this planet can answer or tell you is if you do not believe Christ can come any moment take His Church (haha yeah tell Him why He can't) and He comes you that do not believe will go anyway? Gods going to now for the 1st time in your life force you do do something you do not believe in?

Thats another reason believers will be here and those that hear Christ died for them during the great tribulation.

 

[Dale]

Emun,
You are correct. The notion of "rapture" separate from the Second Coming was invented out of thin air in Scotland in the 19th century. This is well documented.

My personal experience on the subject goes like this. I grew up in a moderate Baptist church. On Sunday we spent about five hours in church, between Sunday School, morning church, then Training Union and evening church. When I graduated from High School I had never heard of rapture, let alone believe in it.

The first person I ever met who did believe in it was a roommate. He had a bumper sticker on his car: In Case of Rapture This Car Will Be Unmanned. He was a member of the Church of Christ. Since then I have learned that the leaders of the Church of Christ strongly oppose the notion of Rapture.

As far as I know, very few people were familiar with the notion of rapture until Hal Lindsay's The Late Great Planet Earth came out in late 1969. I've read that book twice. Lindsay didn't really make much of a case for rapture. He said some churches call it this, some churches call it that. He didn't really discuss why anyone should take the idea seriously. Lindsay is hardly a great intellectual. As I understand it, he has a Certificate of Attendance from a theological school, but he does not have a degree in theology. The problem is that he never had the education to get into the college in the first place.

Where I live, advocates of rapture say that you have to separate the Second Coming into two parts: The Rapture (part 1) and the Second Coming (part 2). Hal Lindsay and company say there will be seven years between the two. They got the seven years from the seven seals, seven trumpets, and so forth in Revelation. Revelation never actually lays out a seven year period for anything. One problem is that Jesus told us that not even the angels in heaven know the day and hour of the Second Coming. Yet, according to the rapturists, after the rapture happens, anyone would be able to calculate the time of the Second Coming. Those who refuse to follow Jesus could calculate it. I have posed this question in the past. Rapturists claim to wiggle out by saying that the seven years isn't exact.

The idea of a rapture, separate from the Second Coming, comes out of the theology of Dispensationalism. Dispensationalism is somewhat incoherent. I've read books by Dispensationalists and about Dispensationalism and I can't really define what it is. The closest I can come to defining it is that it is a grab bag of unsupported ideas that appeal to rightist Christians.

 

[Dale]

I think you meant to say "the idea of a pre-trib-rapture is refuted by the antichrist's persectution of Christians in Dan 7 and in Rev 13 (and in Rev 12).

But you could also add this from Matt 24

vs 29-31 "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days...



29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days ....30 the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Happens after the tribulation

Bob,
You are a Seventh Day Adventist.
The founding prophetess of the SDA church, Ellen White, did not believe in a rapture.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

One fact from Scripture completely refutes the idea of a pre-rapture. That fact is that the Antichrist will defeat and execute Christians. This fact is stated several times in the Book of Daniel and Revelation (Daniel 7:21, Revelation 13:7, Revelation 20:4). If Christians are persecuted and killed during the reign of the Antichrist, then there can be no pre-rapture. That would otherwise be a clear contradiction.

Jesus will only return once and that is at the end of the reign of the Antichrist.

I don't know of any church father who believed in a pre-rapture, nor do I know anyone who believed in dispensationalism.

Dispensationalism is a new phenomenon created by men. There is also no anti-Christ , just those who are against Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
There is one ressurection for all. Those who are still alive on the last day will join them, Paul said this to easy their anxieties.
Blessings.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob,
You are a Seventh Day Adventist.
The founding prophetess of the SDA church, Ellen White, did not believe in a rapture.

Thanks for the help Dale - but you are missing a detail or two on what she believed.

So it depends on how you define the term "rapture". She defined the thing she did not believe in as "secret pre-trib appearing" of Christ.

But she most certainly believed in a non-secret, post-trib appearing of Christ where He takes all the saints to heaven and "every eye sees Him" as in Matt 24;29-31 , Rev 1:7. That is "the rapture" that we find in 1 Thess 4:13-18 and John 14:1-3 and Matt 24:29-31 sense of the word.

When she used the specific term "rapture" she usually was referring to rapture of feeling -- but she was very explicit in her belief in a non-secret post-trib appearing of Christ where He takes all the saints.

In any case this is in our public statement of beliefs as a denomination even if someone outside the church has not read all of Ellen White's comments on the topic - it is there in our enumerated short-list fundamental beliefs.

 

[BobRyan]

ONE of the main points of the "Rapture" doctrine is that Jesus' promise to take the saints to heaven - in John 14:1-3, is fulfilled literally as we see in Matt 24:29-31 "immediately after the tribulation" and in 1 Thess 4:13-18 where the saints are taken up in the air just as Matt 24 says.

That means that at the appearing of Christ - the saints are taken to heaven according to the Bible.

 

[keras]

The issue of a 'rapture to heaven' for the Church is far from being accepted by many people who seriously study this belief. So believers in that idea cannot just assume that a rapture will happen.

They say; We Christians are not appointed to wrath. And this is a true statement, but it doesn't in any way mean that God intends to remove His people to heaven, to avoid any hardships and testing to come. We must be tested: 1 Peter 4:12
I have a list of 25 scriptures that say how the Lord will protect His people during His wrath.

What people should consider, is what does God want of us Christians? What is our destiny?
Jesus gave us a Commission; to spread the Gospel, Matthew 28:19-20
Will He say: Nah, don't need to bother any more, come up here and do harp practice! Let the ungodly stew in their own juice.

NO; we are His witnesses, Isaiah 43:8-13, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations, Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16, also Ezekiel 39:27
THAT is our task, our destiny and our great privilege.

We Christians must endure until the end; Matthew 24:13, Revelation 13:10

 

[keras]

ONE of the main points of the "Rapture" doctrine is that Jesus' promise to take the saints to heaven - in John 14:1-3, is fulfilled literally as we see in Matt 24:29-31 "immediately after the tribulation" and in 1 Thess 4:13-18 where the saints are taken up in the air just as Matt 24 says.

That means that at the appearing of Christ - the saints are taken to heaven according to the Bible.

There is nowhere in the Bible that says anybody will be taken to heaven, not John 14:1-4, or Matthew 24:31. The only people [dead] will be the two Witnesses, Rev 11:12 and even then, this happens when Jesus Returns and they will go with Jesus to Jerusalem.

 

[BobRyan]

The issue of a 'rapture to heaven' for the Church is far from being accepted by many people who seriously study this belief.

True.

"A lot of people" in Christ's day did not accept that Jesus was the Messiah

"A lot of people" today do not accept that the Bible examples of baptism by immersion is the way it was done.

"A lot of people today" do not accept the Protestant and Hebrew version of the OT text of 39 but rather they add 11 more books.

"A lot of people" today do not accept the "Sola scriptura testing" model approved of in scripture for all doctrine.

But I agree that none of us should "just assume that a rapture will happen. " rather we need to apply the "sola scriptura test" of the teaching as Jesus does in Mark 7:6-13 for evaluating those teaching in his day and as the Bereans do in Acts 17:11.

They say; We Christians are not appointed to wrath. And this is a true statement, but it doesn't in any way mean that God intends to remove His people to heaven, to avoid any hardships and testing to come.

Agreed -- particularly when we notice the 1260 years of tribulation that the church went through in Rev 12. If the rapture teaching is based on the idea that tribulation has-never or will-never come to Christians then it fails right out of the gate.

But notice - I never argue that for support of the rapture because as pointed out all ready - the rapture is post trib according to Christ in Matt 24:29-31.

What people should consider, is what does God want of us Christians? What is our destiny?
Jesus gave us a Commission; to spread the Gospel, Matthew 28:19-20
Will He say: Nah, don't need to bother any more,

In Matt 28 Jesus told us to teach "ALL that I have commanded you" and that includes His teaching on the rapture in John 14:1-3 and Matt 24:29-31 and 1 Thess 4:13-18...

We Christians must endure until the end; Matthew 24:13, Revelation 13:10

True - but that is not an argument against the Bible teaching on the rapture.

 

[BobRyan]

There is nowhere in the Bible that says anybody will be taken to heaven, not John 14:1-4, or Matthew 24:31.

Well that is not a very detailed view of John 14:1-3 where we see the very thing you claim is not there.

Jesus clearly taught that His Father is in Heaven

Matthew 5:16 glorify your Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 5:45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven;
Matthew 6 "Our Father who dwells IN HEAVEN"
Matthew 18:14 "your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish."
​

John 14:1-3 1 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”


Matt 5
3 “for theirs is the kingdom of heaven”…: 3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven

11 Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.


Heb 12
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,


Heb 11
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

 

[Blaise N]

I’m not so sure my friend.I consider myself in the middle.If there’s a rapture,GREAT,if Not GREAT.I know how to survive the tribulation of revelation.

 

[Dale]

I’m not so sure my friend.I consider myself in the middle.If there’s a rapture,GREAT,if Not GREAT.I know how to survive the tribulation of revelation.

The problem is that if pastors keep predicting a rapture of believers and it never happens, the likely result will be a falling away from God's church.

 

[Dale]

One fact from Scripture completely refutes the idea of a pre-rapture. That fact is that the Antichrist will defeat and execute Christians. This fact is stated several times in the Book of Daniel and Revelation (Daniel 7:21, Revelation 13:7, Revelation 20:4). If Christians are persecuted and killed during the reign of the Antichrist, then there can be no pre-rapture. That would otherwise be a clear contradiction.

Jesus will only return once and that is at the end of the reign of the Antichrist.

I don't know of any church father who believed in a pre-rapture, nor do I know anyone who believed in dispensationalism.

Here is one reason I agree with you. Most Christians who believe in a rapture want to believe that God will take His people off the earth before Tribulation starts. That sounds good if you believe in a Tribulation to come. Here's the problem ... So God will remove Christians before the trouble starts. Can you imagine how stupid that sounds to Christians in parts of the world where persecution of Christianity is already a reality?

 

[keras]

True - but that is not an argument against the Bible teaching on the rapture.

There is really no argument about a 'rapture to heaven'.
Jesus said:
John 3:13 No one has gone up into heaven, except the One who came down from heaven, the Son of Man.
John 8:21-23 Again He said: Where I go, you cannot come. You belong to this world below, I to the world above….
We humans never go to heaven. At the end of Gods 7000 year Plan for mankind, God and heaven come to the earth, Revelation 21:1-7

I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

Jesus IS coming again; to the earth and He will gather His own people to Him, to rule and be His priests for the Millennium. Matthew 24:30-31

 

[RandyPNW]

hi since these events are still future you have a right to your opinion but until it is fact you have to hold on to your declaration of being right. I am a futurist and believe in the rapture of the church. Now those who are beheaded in the tribulation for their testimony of Jesus very well could be a category of saints who turn to Jesus when the tribulation has begun after a rapture of the church would have already happened.

Brother, I go to a church with Pretribulation Rapture teaching. So I don't consider it anything more than my opinion in a church that disagrees with me. We're both futurists, but I am referencing Scripture where Paul says that the coming of the Lord for his Church cannot happen until the Man of Sin is revealed. Then, when he is revealed, Jesus will come to destroy him. That *is* Scripture! I don't care how democratic you think I need to be--I'm going to state what I see the word of God as saying!

But have at it. Tell your side. I've been hearing it since the mid-70s and earlier. There isn't a single Pretrib argument that I haven't answered. You have to follow the Lord the way He leads you. This is the way He leads me, and I don't intend to be hostile or disagreeable--just faithful to God and to my conscience.

Saints who convert during the Reign of Antichrist don't have time to mature and be courageous saints, as the book of Revelation depicts them. The 144,000 Jews are not depicted as an army of evangelists reaping a harvest across the world. On the contrary, the world is closing down evangelism because it is increasingly becoming more AntiChristian.