There is no Hell!

[Elife3]

Whatever "hell" or the "grave" is, you don't want that.

Hell is real and whether it be the grave, eternal separation from God, Temporary torment leading to annihalation, or eternal torment, I don't want any of these and God's will is that we have eternal life.

 

[Nadiine]

Whatever "hell" or the "grave" is, you don't want that.

Hell is real and whether it be the grave, eternal separation from God, Temporary torment leading to annihalation, or eternal torment, I don't want any of these and God's will is that we have eternal life.

Well, I agree with you... but then we have to take some things into consideration -
unsaved people who don't WANT God right now are told that there isn't a place of torment - all they do is get annihilated. POOF, all gone.

Since the lost don't believe in OUR God, they have to TRUST & bank on our God being true PLUS give up their sin lives when there's no possibility of torment facing them.
Is that ANY incentive to turn to God when there's nothing TO turn from? No penalty ahead of them? At worse, some say they get a little "jail time", then get into heaven later anyways....
others say they just stop existing. BIG DEAL! Isn't that worth having this life & doing all you want in it?

Noone seems to be thinking about how the LOST view this & why they need salvation! There really isn't much need for it. Atheists already believe you stop existing after death - it doesn't motivate them to seek God any.

If I was unsaved (and did once enjoy a Godless lifestyle doing what I loved to do) - if there was no torment ahead of me and I couldn't know if this was the True God, I wouldn't bother with salvation... (unless He directly called me using conviction of my sin, etc.).. but without serious or eternal punishment, I'd find no necessity to get saved & bank on Him being the right God.

 

[Elife3]

Well, I agree with you... but then we have to take some things into consideration -
unsaved people who don't WANT God right now are told that there isn't a place of torment - all they do is get annihilated. POOF, all gone.

Since the lost don't believe in OUR God, they have to TRUST & bank on our God being true PLUS give up their sin lives when there's no possibility of torment facing them.
Is that ANY incentive to turn to God when there's nothing TO turn from? No penalty ahead of them? At worse, some say they get a little "jail time", then get into heaven later anyways....
others say they just stop existing. BIG DEAL! Isn't that worth having this life & doing all you want in it?

Noone seems to be thinking about how the LOST view this & why they need salvation! There really isn't much need for it. Atheists already believe you stop existing after death - it doesn't motivate them to seek God any.

If I was unsaved (and did once enjoy a Godless lifestyle doing what I loved to do) - if there was no torment ahead of me and I couldn't know if this was the True God, I wouldn't bother with salvation... (unless He directly called me using conviction of my sin, etc.).. but without serious or eternal punishment, I'd find no necessity to get saved & bank on Him being the right God.

Good points. I would emphasize the Eternal torment theory more.

 

[Elife3]

Well, I agree with you... but then we have to take some things into consideration -
unsaved people who don't WANT God right now are told that there isn't a place of torment - all they do is get annihilated. POOF, all gone.

Since the lost don't believe in OUR God, they have to TRUST & bank on our God being true PLUS give up their sin lives when there's no possibility of torment facing them.
Is that ANY incentive to turn to God when there's nothing TO turn from? No penalty ahead of them? At worse, some say they get a little "jail time", then get into heaven later anyways....
others say they just stop existing. BIG DEAL! Isn't that worth having this life & doing all you want in it?

Noone seems to be thinking about how the LOST view this & why they need salvation! There really isn't much need for it. Atheists already believe you stop existing after death - it doesn't motivate them to seek God any.

If I was unsaved (and did once enjoy a Godless lifestyle doing what I loved to do) - if there was no torment ahead of me and I couldn't know if this was the True God, I wouldn't bother with salvation... (unless He directly called me using conviction of my sin, etc.).. but without serious or eternal punishment, I'd find no necessity to get saved & bank on Him being the right God.

Good points. I would emphasize the Eternal torment theory more.

 

[Nadiine]

Good points. I would emphasize the Eternal torment theory more.

I only came to realize the necessity of there being an eternal torment FOR ME (in my case) when 2 Jehovah Witnesses came to my door to witness to me and I was a new Christian at the time.

I still had some sin issues that were very hard to let go of and I struggled with it.. and they basically said the same thing about not being any lake of fire (or hell) --
I replied, "well then, why should I keep trying to fight against sinning when I can have BOTH lives anyways?"!!
I was angry! lol
If I can get both lives, why am I fighting so hard here? How pointless. I told them I'd RATHER have my fun and just not exist after death. POOF, I'm all gone and I didn't lose the fun I wanted in this life.

I'd have to Bank on this God being the right one to get that heaven anyways; AND WHAT IT THEY WERE WRONG!?????????????? If He wasn't God, I not only didn't get that Heaven, BUT i COULD OF SINNED & had fun too.

something didn't make sense to me why they were out peddling that salvation? It wasn't logical to me.
(that's how I thought about it as a brand new Christian anyways).

 

[GuardianShua]

Well, I agree with you... but then we have to take some things into consideration -
unsaved people who don't WANT God right now are told that there isn't a place of torment - all they do is get annihilated. POOF, all gone.

Since the lost don't believe in OUR God, they have to TRUST & bank on our God being true PLUS give up their sin lives when there's no possibility of torment facing them.
Is that ANY incentive to turn to God when there's nothing TO turn from? No penalty ahead of them? At worse, some say they get a little "jail time", then get into heaven later anyways....
others say they just stop existing. BIG DEAL! Isn't that worth having this life & doing all you want in it?

Noone seems to be thinking about how the LOST view this & why they need salvation! There really isn't much need for it. Atheists already believe you stop existing after death - it doesn't motivate them to seek God any.

If I was unsaved (and did once enjoy a Godless lifestyle doing what I loved to do) - if there was no torment ahead of me and I couldn't know if this was the True God, I wouldn't bother with salvation... (unless He directly called me using conviction of my sin, etc.).. but without serious or eternal punishment, I'd find no necessity to get saved & bank on Him being the right God.

Our reward is life immortal in the Kingdom of God, and the punishment of the wicked is death. It seems to me that you feel that your doing God a sevice, by insisting that He will torture you for all eternity without mercy. That is what the Pagans believe. Is that what you also believe?

 

[SoundCard]

What pagans are you talking about exactly anyways? That's a rather broad base ain't it?

 

[Nadiine]

Our reward is life immortal in the Kingdom of God, and the punishment of the wicked is death. It seems to me that you feel that your doing God a sevice, by insisting that He will torture you for all eternity without mercy. That is what the Pagans believe. Is that what you also believe?

I'm being logical! lol
You have to TRUST (as a nonbeliever who doesn't have the Faith a Christian has & trusts) that this God IS THE RIGHT ONE first! That's already a huge leap.
What gaurantees do the lost have to prove this God is the true one?
THEN, you want them to give up all their pleasures they know & love forever till they die.
PLUS, there's NO REAL REASON FOR THEM TO bcuz there's no penalty for the sins they commit anyways.

Think about it. I did. You can't be a Christian in a Christian's worldview thinking about that; you have to put yourself in THEIR shoes with what THEY know (and DON"T know about the God we serve).

Have we forgotten what we used to think before salvation? I haven't. If there's NO penalty, I'd rather have fun here and not suffer hell and I won't have anything to worry about the next one that just "ends".
If I don't get "life in heaven", who cares, I never had the pleasure of it to MISS it or know how great it was. I haven't LOST anything I never had.

(kinda like people who have kids telling a person that doesn't like them "you don't know what youre missing not to have children".... they're RIGHT!!! lol)

If it's universalism, YOU GET HEAVEN ANYWAYS, so who cares; enjoy BOTH lives after you repent later.

 

[Zecryphon]

I only came to realize the necessity of there being an eternal torment FOR ME (in my case) when 2 Jehovah Witnesses came to my door to witness to me and I was a new Christian at the time.

I still had some sin issues that were very hard to let go of and I struggled with it.. and they basically said the same thing about not being any lake of fire (or hell) --
I replied, "well then, why should I keep trying to fight against sinning when I can have BOTH lives anyways?"!!
I was angry! lol
If I can get both lives, why am I fighting so hard here? How pointless. I told them I'd RATHER have my fun and just not exist after death. POOF, I'm all gone and I didn't lose the fun I wanted in this life.

I'd have to Bank on this God being the right one to get that heaven anyways; AND WHAT IT THEY WERE WRONG!?????????????? If He wasn't God, I not only didn't get that Heaven, BUT i COULD OF SINNED & had fun too.

something didn't make sense to me why they were out peddling that salvation? It wasn't logical to me.
(that's how I thought about it as a brand new Christian anyways).

The thing to remember about the JW's is that they don't believe in an afterlife either. They do not believe they are resurrected to new life in Christ. They too believe death is the end and after they die they cease to exist. They do believe that if they lived a good enough life Jehovah will create a being that displays their most admirable attributes in their memory. I have no idea where they get this from though.

 

[Zecryphon]

What pagans are you talking about exactly anyways? That's a rather broad base ain't it?

Yep, no one ever specifies which group of Pagans they are referring to. They just say Pagan as if it's one more religion out there and the truth is that Paganism is probably about as divided as to what it believes as the various denominations within Christianity are. Wiccans and Dionysians are both considred Pagans, but they both believe vastly different things.

 

[DeanM]

If there is a hell, I wonder if it is full of people arguing?

 

[GuardianShua]

I'm being logical! lol
You have to TRUST (as a nonbeliever who doesn't have the Faith a Christian has & trusts) that this God IS THE RIGHT ONE first! That's already a huge leap.
What gaurantees do the lost have to prove this God is the true one?
THEN, you want them to give up all their pleasures they know & love forever till they die.
PLUS, there's NO REAL REASON FOR THEM TO bcuz there's no penalty for the sins they commit anyways.

Think about it. I did. You can't be a Christian in a Christian's worldview thinking about that; you have to put yourself in THEIR shoes with what THEY know (and DON"T know about the God we serve).

Have we forgotten what we used to think before salvation? I haven't. If there's NO penalty, I'd rather have fun here and not suffer hell and I won't have anything to worry about the next one that just "ends".
If I don't get "life in heaven", who cares, I never had the pleasure of it to MISS it or know how great it was. I haven't LOST anything I never had.

(kinda like people who have kids telling a person that doesn't like them "you don't know what youre missing not to have children".... they're RIGHT!!! lol)

If it's universalism, YOU GET HEAVEN ANYWAYS, so who cares; enjoy BOTH lives after you repent later.

You keep insisting that Im an Atheist and non Christian because I don't believe as you do. I dont tell people that because they believe in a Sunday sabbath, or trinitarism, or hell, that there not a Christian or there going to hell, it's not my place to say. But what I can do, is show them that they are in error about something. Im sure you mean well, but not believing in hell, or trinitarism, or a Sunday sabbath prevents a person from being a christian.

 

[Nadiine]

You keep insisting that Im an Atheist and non Christian because I don't believe as you do. I dont tell people that because they believe in a Sunday sabbath, or trinitarism, or hell, that there not a Christian or there going to hell, it's not my place to say. But what I can do, is show them that they are in error about something. Im sure you mean well, but not believing in hell, or trinitarism, or a Sunday sabbath prevents a person from being a christian.

WOE, wait a minute here!
When did I say YOU were an atheist??????? I'm giving my "worldview" about how I view the necessity of there being an ETERNAL PUNISHMENT - or else salvation is not truly needful for us.
How does that equate to me calling you an atheist?? I've rationalized that even Atheists who reject the idea that there's life after death aren't motivated (by that worldview) to seek God for any salvation.... frankly, it doesn't motivate me to think I need it either if I just stop existing after I physically die.

Not one time did I call YOU Atheist. Please go back and read my post again and keep it in it's proper context as a hypothetical - I'm using a mind that the lost would have' in reasoning if they NEED such a salvation at all.

And, I will say this, if you REJECT the Deity of Christ (which automatically enforces the necessity of a Trinity), then I do take issue w/ a person's salvation directly! yes. --but that's a whole other thread.
I dont know your personal views on Christ's deity or the Godhead (3 as the One true God), the thread has been only about this topic and that's all I've been going on.

 

[Nadiine]

Yep, no one ever specifies which group of Pagans they are referring to. They just say Pagan as if it's one more religion out there and the truth is that Paganism is probably about as divided as to what it believes as the various denominations within Christianity are. Wiccans and Dionysians are both considred Pagans, but they both believe vastly different things.

I just checked out some site links - a religious tolerance site says there's no actual agreed upon definition as to what a pagan is.. that the meanings have changed over time...

Websters:
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin paganus, from Latin, civilian, country dweller, from pagus country district; akin to Latin pangere to fix -- more at [SIZE=-1]PACT[/SIZE]
1 : [SIZE=-1]HEATHEN [/SIZE]1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)
2 : one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person
3 : [SIZE=-1]NEO-PAGAN[/SIZE]

So you decide.

 

[Nadiine]

The thing to remember about the JW's is that they don't believe in an afterlife either. They do not believe they are resurrected to new life in Christ. They too believe death is the end and after they die they cease to exist. They do believe that if they lived a good enough life Jehovah will create a being that displays their most admirable attributes in their memory. I have no idea where they get this from though.

Yes, but I also had a few that told me they will reinherit the earth & live down here eternally too.
I think some of them believe different afterlife scenarios. But when they told me that, I just stood there thinking, THEN WHAT'S THE POINT OF GIVING UP MY SIN HERE FOR THAT?
If I don't know who God is, and don't know for sure if your God is the RIGHT one, you're asking me to give up all my "FUN" here (my very nature), on a HOPE that I'm right?
AND THERE'S NO TORMENT OR CONSEQUENCE TO IT if I'm wrong???
Hello!! Think about it - it's not worth the bet! If they're wrong, they've lost BOTH lives! They restricted themselves & took on unpopularity (ie. persecution) for this false god, PLUS don't get the blissful afterlife either! (or if they believe they cease, it won't MATTER if they suffered in all their moral/physical restrictions... that they didn't even NEED to do.

IF they're right, big deal if they get a blissful afterlife (while the rest cease to exist); You don't KNOW what you're missing nor care that you're missing out on it!... kinda like before you were born; do any of us "care" that we don't have the people we love in our lives & all the things that make us happy here, Prior to birth? NOPE.

It makes NO sense to me to run to this God's "salvation", if there's NOTHING I'm essentially losing (or will FEEL I lost) nor suffering for my lack of it.
IMO, it negates the need of salvation. ESPECIALLY W/ UNIVERSALISM! I get in ANWAYS despite myself! Hey, what a deal.!! LOL I'll worry about it later - pass me the Vodka & turn up the stereo!!

I remember the JW lady standing there not knowing what to say after I rationalized to her that I'd rather keep and bet on THIS LIFE and she can keep her heavenly bliss & nothing will matter if we all just stop existing anyways - I'd rather bank on the life I know for sure than HOPE she's right and lose both lives since there's no ultimate consequence for my error.
She couldn't figure out why I wouldn't want to be with her God. (ps. JW's have alot more restrictions than Christians do - God forbid if you need a blood transfusion, kiss any political activity or interest goodbye, no birthday celebrations either...)
ugh. no thank you. :/

 

[GuardianShua]

WOE, wait a minute here!
When did I say YOU were an atheist??????? I'm giving my "worldview" about how I view the necessity of there being an ETERNAL PUNISHMENT - or else salvation is not truly needful for us.
How does that equate to me calling you an atheist?? I've rationalized that even Atheists who reject the idea that there's life after death aren't motivated (by that worldview) to seek God for any salvation.... frankly, it doesn't motivate me to think I need it either if I just stop existing after I physically die.

Not one time did I call YOU Atheist. Please go back and read my post again and keep it in it's proper context as a hypothetical - I'm using a mind that the lost would have' in reasoning if they NEED such a salvation at all.

And, I will say this, if you REJECT the Deity of Christ (which automatically enforces the necessity of a Trinity), then I do take issue w/ a person's salvation directly! yes. --but that's a whole other thread.
I dont know your personal views on Christ's deity or the Godhead (3 as the One true God), the thread has been only about this topic and that's all I've been going on.

Well Im done here, I have other things I need to take care of. By for now.

 

[Ben12]

The English word Hell grew into its present meaning. Horne Tooke says that hell, heel, hill, hole, whole, hall, hull, halt and hold are all from the same root. "Hell, any place, or some place covered over. Heel, that part of the foot which is covered by the leg. Hill, any heap of earth, or stone, etc., by which the plain or level surface of the earth is covered. Hale, i.e., healed or whole. Whole, the same as hale, i.e., covered. It was formerly written whole, without the w, as a wound or sore is healed, or whole, that is, covered over by the skin, which manner of expression will not seem extraordinary if we consider our use of the word recover. Hall, a covered building, where persons assemble, or where goods are protected from the weather. Hull, of a nut, etc. That by which a nut is covered. Hole, some place covered over. 'You shall seek for holes to hide your heads in.' Holt, holed, hol'd holt. A rising ground or knoll covered with trees. Hold, as the hold of a ship, in which things are covered, or the covered part of a ship."
The word was first applied to the grave by our German and English ancestors, and as superstition came to regard the grave as an entrance to a world of torment, Hell at length became the word used to denote an imaginary realm of fiery woe.
Dr. Adam Clarke says: "The word Hell, used in the common translation, conveys now an improper meaning of the original word; because Hell is only used to signify the place of the damned. But as the word Hell comes from the Anglo-Saxon helan, to cover, or hide, henee the tiling or slating of a house is called, in some parts of England (particularly Cornwall), heling, to this day, and the corers of books (in Lancashire), by the same name, so the literal import of the original word hades was formerly well expressed by it."---Com. in loc.

 

[Ben12]

The Hebrew Old Testament, some three hundred years before the Christian era, was translated into Greek, but of the sixty-four instances where Sheol occurs in the Hebrew, it is rendered Hadees in the Greek sixty times, so that either word is the equivalent of the other. But neither of these words is ever used in the Bible to signify punishment after death, nor should the word Hell ever be used as the rendering of Sheol or Hadees for neither word denotes post-mortem torment. According to the Old Testament the words Sheol, Hadees primarily signify only the place, or state of the dead. The character of those who departed thither did not affect their situation in Sheol, for all went into the same state. The word cannot be translated by the term Hell, for that would make Jacob expect to go to a place of torment, and prove that the Savior of the world, David, Jonah, etc., were once sufferers in the prison-house of the damned. In every instance in the Old Testament, the word grave might be substituted for the term hell, either in a literal or figurative sense. The word being a proper name should always have been left untranslated. Had it been carried into the Greek Septuagint, and thence into the English, untranslated, Sheol, a world of misconception would have been avoided, for when it is rendered Hadees, all the materialism of the heathen mythology is suggested to the mind, and when rendered Hell, the medieval monstrosities of a Christianity corrupted by heathen adulterations is suggested. Had the word been permitted to travel untranslated, no one would give to it the meaning now so often applied to it. Sheol, primarily, literally, the grave, or death, secondarily and figuratively the political, social, moral or spiritual consequences of wickedness in the present world, is the precise force of the term, wherever found.
Sheol occurs exactly sixty-four times and is translated hell thirty-two times, pit three times, and grave twenty-nine times. Dr. George Campbell, a celebrated critic, says that "Sheol signifies the state of the dead in general, without regard to the goodness or badness of the persons, their happiness or misery."
FIVE OLD TESTAMENT TEXTS CLAIMED
Professor Stuart (orthodox Congregational) only dares claim five out of the sixty-four passages as affording any proof that the word means a place of punishment after death. "These," he says, "may designate the future world of woe." "They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment go down to Sheol." "The wicked shall be turned into Sheol, and all the nations that forget God." "Her feet go down to death, her steps take hold of Sheol." "But he knoweth that the ghosts are there, and that her guests are in the depths of Sheol." "Thou shalt beat him with a rod, and shall deliver his soul from Sheol. He observes: "The meaning will be a good one, if we suppose Sheol to designate future punishment." "I concede, to interpret all the texts which exhibit Sheol as having reference merely to the grave, is possible; and therefore it is possible to interpret" them "as designating a death violent and premature, inflicted by the hand of Heaven."
An examination shows that these five passages agree with the rest in their meaning:
Ps. 9:17: "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God." The wicked here are "the heathen," "mine enemies," i.e.; they are not individuals, but "the nations that forget God," that is, neighboring nations, the heathen. They will be turned into Sheol, death, die as nations, for their wickedness. Individual sinners are not meant.
Professor Alexander, of the Theological Seminary, Princeton, thus presents the correct translation of Ps. 9:17, the only passage containing the word usually quoted from the Old Testament to convey the idea of post-mortem punishment. "The wicked shall turn back, even to hell, to death or to the grave, all nations forgetful of God. The enemies of God and of his people shall not only be thwarted and repulsed, but driven to destruction, and that not merely individuals, but nations." Dr. Allen, of Bowdoin College says of this text: "The punishment expressed in this passage is cutting off from life, destroying from the earth by some special judgment, and removing to the invisible state of the dead. The Hebrew term translated hell in the text does not seem to mean, with any certainty, anything more than the state of the dead in their deep abode." Professor Stuart: "It means a violent and premature death inflicted by the hand of heaven." Job 21:13: "They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment go down to the grave."
It would seem that no one could claim this text as a threat of after-death punishment. It is a mere declaration of sudden death. This is evident when we remember that it was uttered to a people who, according to all authorities, believed in no punishment after death.
Proverbs 5: 5: "her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell." This language, making death and Sheol parallel, announces that the strange woman walks in paths of swift and inevitable sorrow and death. And so does Prov. 9:18: "But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell." Sheol is here used as a figure of emblem of the horrible condition and fate of those who follow the ways of sin. They are dead while they live. They are already in Sheol or the kingdom of death.
Proverbs 23: 13-14: "Withhold not correction from the child; for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell." Sheol is here used as the grave, to denote the death that rebellious children experience early, or it may mean that moral condition of the soul which Sheol, the realm of death signifies. But in no case is it supposable that it means a place or condition of after-death punishment in which, as all scholars agree, Solomon was not a believer.
MEANING OF THE WORD
The real meaning of the word Stuart concedes to be the under-world, the religion of the dead, the grave, the sepulcher, the region of ghosts or departed spirits. (Ex. Ess.): "It was considered as a vast and wide dominion or region, of which the grave seems to have been as it were only a part or a kind of entrance-way. It appears to have been regarded as extending deep down into the earth, even to its lowest abysses. . . . . In this boundless region lived and moved at times, the names of departed friends."
But these five passages teach no such doctrine as he thinks they may teach. The unrighteous possessor of wealth goes down to death; the nations that forget God are destroyed as nations; lewd women's steps lead downward to death; their guests are on the downward road; the rod that wisely corrects the unruly child, saves him from the destruction of sin. There is no hint of an endless hell, nor of a post-mortem hell in these passages, and if not in these five then it is conceded it is in no passage containing the word.
That the Hebrew Sheol never designates a place of punishment in a future state of existence, we have the testimony of the most learned of scholars, even among the so-called orthodox. We quote the testimony of a few:
Rev. Dr. Whitby: "Sheol throughout the Old Testament, signifies not a place of punishment for the souls of bad men only, but the grave, or place of death." Dr Chapman: "Sheol, in itself considered has no connection with future punishment." Dr. Allen: "The term Sheol itself, does not seem to mean anything more than the state of the dead in their dark abode." Dr. Firbairn, of the College of Glasgow: "Beyond doubt, Sheol, like Hades, was regarded as the abode after death, alike of the good and the bad." Edward Leigh, who says Horne's, "Introduction," was "one of the most learned understanding of the original languages of the Scriptures," observes that "all learned Hebrew scholars know the Hebrews have no proper word for hell, as we take hell."
Prof. Stuart: "There can be no reasonable doubt that Sheol does most generally mean the underworld, the grave or sepulchre, the world of the dead. It is very clear that there are many passages where no other meaning can reasonably be assigned to it. Accordingly, our English translators have rendered the word Sheol grave in thirty instances out of the whole sixty-four instances in which it occurs."
Dr. Thayer in his Theology of Universalism quotes as follows: Dr. Whitby says that Hell "throughout the Old Testament signifies the grave only or the place of death." Archbishop Whately: "As for a future state of retribution in another world, Moses said nothing to the Israelites about that." Milman says that Moses "maintains a profound silence on the rewards and punishments of another life." Bishop Warburton testifies that, "In the Jewish Republic, both the rewards and punishments promised by Heaven were temporal only-such as health, long life, peace, plenty and dominion, etc., diseases, premature death, war, famine, want, subjections, captivity, etc. And in no one place of the Mosaic Institutes is there the least mention, or any intelligible hint, of the rewards and punishments of another life." Paley declares that the Mosaic dispensation "dealt in temporal rewards and punishments. The blessings consisted altogether of worldly benefits, and the curses of worldly punishments. Prof. Mayer says, that "the rewards promised the righteous, and the punishments threatened the wicked, are such only as are awarded in the present state of being." Jahn, whose work is the textbook of the Andover Theological Seminary, says, "We have no authority, therefore, decidedly to say, that any other motives were held out to the ancient Hebrews to pursue good and avoid evil, than those which were derived from the rewards and punishments of this life." To the same important fact testify Prof. Wines, Bush, Arnauld, and other distinguished theologians and scholars. "All learned Hebrew scholars know that the Hebrews have no word proper for hell, as we take hell."
[Footnote: Encyc. Britan., vol. 1. Dis. 3 Whateley's "Peculiarities of the Christian Religion," p.44, 2d edition, and his "Scripture Revelations of a Future State," pp. 18, 19, American edition. MILMAN'S "Hist. of Jews," vol. 1, 117. "Divine Legation," vol. 3, pp. 1, 2 & c. 10th London edition. PALEY'S works, vol. 5. p. 110, Sermon 13. Jahn's "Archaeology," 324. Lee, in his "Eschatology," says: "It should be remembered that the rewards and punishments of the Mosaic Institutes were exclusively temporal. Not an allusion is found, in the case of either individuals or communities, in which reference is made to the good or evil of a future state as motive to obedience."]
Dr. Muenscher, author of a Dogmatic History in German, says: "The souls or shades of the dead wander in Sheol, the realm or kingdom of death, an abode deep under the earth. Thither go all men, without distinction, and hope for no return. There ceases all pain and anguish; there reigns an unbroken silence; there all is powerless and still; and even the praise of God is heard no more." Von Coelln: "Sheol itself is described as the house appointed for all living, which receives into its bosom all mankind, without distinction of rank, wealth or moral character. It is only in the mode of death, and not in the condition after death, that the good are distinguished above the evil. The just, for instance, die in peace, and are gently borne away before the evil comes; while a bitter death breaks the wicked like as a tree."

 

[DeanM]

The Hebrew Old Testament, some three hundred years before the Christian era, was translated into Greek, but of the sixty-four instances where Sheol occurs in the Hebrew, it is rendered Hadees in the Greek sixty times, so that either word is the equivalent of the other. But neither of these words is ever used in the Bible to signify punishment after death, nor should the word Hell ever be used as the rendering of Sheol or Hadees for neither word denotes post-mortem torment. According to the Old Testament the words Sheol, Hadees primarily signify only the place, or state of the dead. The character of those who departed thither did not affect their situation in Sheol, for all went into the same state. The word cannot be translated by the term Hell, for that would make Jacob expect to go to a place of torment, and prove that the Savior of the world, David, Jonah, etc., were once sufferers in the prison-house of the damned. In every instance in the Old Testament, the word grave might be substituted for the term hell, either in a literal or figurative sense. The word being a proper name should always have been left untranslated. Had it been carried into the Greek Septuagint, and thence into the English, untranslated, Sheol, a world of misconception would have been avoided, for when it is rendered Hadees, all the materialism of the heathen mythology is suggested to the mind, and when rendered Hell, the medieval monstrosities of a Christianity corrupted by heathen adulterations is suggested. Had the word been permitted to travel untranslated, no one would give to it the meaning now so often applied to it. Sheol, primarily, literally, the grave, or death, secondarily and figuratively the political, social, moral or spiritual consequences of wickedness in the present world, is the precise force of the term, wherever found.
Sheol occurs exactly sixty-four times and is translated hell thirty-two times, pit three times, and grave twenty-nine times. Dr. George Campbell, a celebrated critic, says that "Sheol signifies the state of the dead in general, without regard to the goodness or badness of the persons, their happiness or misery."
FIVE OLD TESTAMENT TEXTS CLAIMED
Professor Stuart (orthodox Congregational) only dares claim five out of the sixty-four passages as affording any proof that the word means a place of punishment after death. "These," he says, "may designate the future world of woe." "They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment go down to Sheol." "The wicked shall be turned into Sheol, and all the nations that forget God." "Her feet go down to death, her steps take hold of Sheol." "But he knoweth that the ghosts are there, and that her guests are in the depths of Sheol." "Thou shalt beat him with a rod, and shall deliver his soul from Sheol. He observes: "The meaning will be a good one, if we suppose Sheol to designate future punishment." "I concede, to interpret all the texts which exhibit Sheol as having reference merely to the grave, is possible; and therefore it is possible to interpret" them "as designating a death violent and premature, inflicted by the hand of Heaven."
An examination shows that these five passages agree with the rest in their meaning:
Ps. 9:17: "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God." The wicked here are "the heathen," "mine enemies," i.e.; they are not individuals, but "the nations that forget God," that is, neighboring nations, the heathen. They will be turned into Sheol, death, die as nations, for their wickedness. Individual sinners are not meant.
Professor Alexander, of the Theological Seminary, Princeton, thus presents the correct translation of Ps. 9:17, the only passage containing the word usually quoted from the Old Testament to convey the idea of post-mortem punishment. "The wicked shall turn back, even to hell, to death or to the grave, all nations forgetful of God. The enemies of God and of his people shall not only be thwarted and repulsed, but driven to destruction, and that not merely individuals, but nations." Dr. Allen, of Bowdoin College says of this text: "The punishment expressed in this passage is cutting off from life, destroying from the earth by some special judgment, and removing to the invisible state of the dead. The Hebrew term translated hell in the text does not seem to mean, with any certainty, anything more than the state of the dead in their deep abode." Professor Stuart: "It means a violent and premature death inflicted by the hand of heaven." Job 21:13: "They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment go down to the grave."
It would seem that no one could claim this text as a threat of after-death punishment. It is a mere declaration of sudden death. This is evident when we remember that it was uttered to a people who, according to all authorities, believed in no punishment after death.
Proverbs 5: 5: "her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell." This language, making death and Sheol parallel, announces that the strange woman walks in paths of swift and inevitable sorrow and death. And so does Prov. 9:18: "But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell." Sheol is here used as a figure of emblem of the horrible condition and fate of those who follow the ways of sin. They are dead while they live. They are already in Sheol or the kingdom of death.
Proverbs 23: 13-14: "Withhold not correction from the child; for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell." Sheol is here used as the grave, to denote the death that rebellious children experience early, or it may mean that moral condition of the soul which Sheol, the realm of death signifies. But in no case is it supposable that it means a place or condition of after-death punishment in which, as all scholars agree, Solomon was not a believer.
MEANING OF THE WORD
The real meaning of the word Stuart concedes to be the under-world, the religion of the dead, the grave, the sepulcher, the region of ghosts or departed spirits. (Ex. Ess.): "It was considered as a vast and wide dominion or region, of which the grave seems to have been as it were only a part or a kind of entrance-way. It appears to have been regarded as extending deep down into the earth, even to its lowest abysses. . . . . In this boundless region lived and moved at times, the names of departed friends."
But these five passages teach no such doctrine as he thinks they may teach. The unrighteous possessor of wealth goes down to death; the nations that forget God are destroyed as nations; lewd women's steps lead downward to death; their guests are on the downward road; the rod that wisely corrects the unruly child, saves him from the destruction of sin. There is no hint of an endless hell, nor of a post-mortem hell in these passages, and if not in these five then it is conceded it is in no passage containing the word.
That the Hebrew Sheol never designates a place of punishment in a future state of existence, we have the testimony of the most learned of scholars, even among the so-called orthodox. We quote the testimony of a few:
Rev. Dr. Whitby: "Sheol throughout the Old Testament, signifies not a place of punishment for the souls of bad men only, but the grave, or place of death." Dr Chapman: "Sheol, in itself considered has no connection with future punishment." Dr. Allen: "The term Sheol itself, does not seem to mean anything more than the state of the dead in their dark abode." Dr. Firbairn, of the College of Glasgow: "Beyond doubt, Sheol, like Hades, was regarded as the abode after death, alike of the good and the bad." Edward Leigh, who says Horne's, "Introduction," was "one of the most learned understanding of the original languages of the Scriptures," observes that "all learned Hebrew scholars know the Hebrews have no proper word for hell, as we take hell."
Prof. Stuart: "There can be no reasonable doubt that Sheol does most generally mean the underworld, the grave or sepulchre, the world of the dead. It is very clear that there are many passages where no other meaning can reasonably be assigned to it. Accordingly, our English translators have rendered the word Sheol grave in thirty instances out of the whole sixty-four instances in which it occurs."
Dr. Thayer in his Theology of Universalism quotes as follows: Dr. Whitby says that Hell "throughout the Old Testament signifies the grave only or the place of death." Archbishop Whately: "As for a future state of retribution in another world, Moses said nothing to the Israelites about that." Milman says that Moses "maintains a profound silence on the rewards and punishments of another life." Bishop Warburton testifies that, "In the Jewish Republic, both the rewards and punishments promised by Heaven were temporal only-such as health, long life, peace, plenty and dominion, etc., diseases, premature death, war, famine, want, subjections, captivity, etc. And in no one place of the Mosaic Institutes is there the least mention, or any intelligible hint, of the rewards and punishments of another life." Paley declares that the Mosaic dispensation "dealt in temporal rewards and punishments. The blessings consisted altogether of worldly benefits, and the curses of worldly punishments. Prof. Mayer says, that "the rewards promised the righteous, and the punishments threatened the wicked, are such only as are awarded in the present state of being." Jahn, whose work is the textbook of the Andover Theological Seminary, says, "We have no authority, therefore, decidedly to say, that any other motives were held out to the ancient Hebrews to pursue good and avoid evil, than those which were derived from the rewards and punishments of this life." To the same important fact testify Prof. Wines, Bush, Arnauld, and other distinguished theologians and scholars. "All learned Hebrew scholars know that the Hebrews have no word proper for hell, as we take hell."
[Footnote: Encyc. Britan., vol. 1. Dis. 3 Whateley's "Peculiarities of the Christian Religion," p.44, 2d edition, and his "Scripture Revelations of a Future State," pp. 18, 19, American edition. MILMAN'S "Hist. of Jews," vol. 1, 117. "Divine Legation," vol. 3, pp. 1, 2 & c. 10th London edition. PALEY'S works, vol. 5. p. 110, Sermon 13. Jahn's "Archaeology," 324. Lee, in his "Eschatology," says: "It should be remembered that the rewards and punishments of the Mosaic Institutes were exclusively temporal. Not an allusion is found, in the case of either individuals or communities, in which reference is made to the good or evil of a future state as motive to obedience."]
Dr. Muenscher, author of a Dogmatic History in German, says: "The souls or shades of the dead wander in Sheol, the realm or kingdom of death, an abode deep under the earth. Thither go all men, without distinction, and hope for no return. There ceases all pain and anguish; there reigns an unbroken silence; there all is powerless and still; and even the praise of God is heard no more." Von Coelln: "Sheol itself is described as the house appointed for all living, which receives into its bosom all mankind, without distinction of rank, wealth or moral character. It is only in the mode of death, and not in the condition after death, that the good are distinguished above the evil. The just, for instance, die in peace, and are gently borne away before the evil comes; while a bitter death breaks the wicked like as a tree."

Just as another footnote,

Ben's entire post is taken from:
http://tentmaker.org/books/TheBibleHell.html

Just thought that credit should be given where credit is due.

 

[Ben12]

Just as another footnote,

Ben's entire post is taken from:
http://tentmaker.org/books/TheBibleHell.html

Just thought that credit should be given where credit is due.

Not a problem these debates get so carnal; I also quote Ray Prinzing and J Preston Eby; men who do not copy write God's Word; but give it away freely.