There is no Hell!

[GuardianShua]

[F]I have heard non-Christians say, quote: I could never worship any God that would torture people for all eternity. Such a God should be despised, and that is why I am opposed to Christianity[/FONT]. NOW WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT! GODS HOLY NAME IS BLASPHEMED BECAUSE WHY?

 

[Nadiine]

[F]I have heard non-Christians say, quote: I could never worship any God that would torture people for all eternity. Such a God should be despised, and that is why I am opposed to Christianity[/font]. NOW WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT! GODS HOLY NAME IS BLASPHEMED BECAUSE WHY?

Hmm, so does that mean that every OTHER excuse non Christians use negates everything else too?

If a nonChristian says, "I would NEVER worship a God that forced me to stop having sex with whoever I wanted!!!"
Does that mean God gives in & says "go ahead, just PLEASE worship Me?"

If a nonChristian says "I could NEVER worship a God that doesn't let me worship other gods & goddesses I believe in"
Does that mean God gives in & says "go ahead & worship them, I'm sorry - please just worship Me sometimes"

If a nonChristian says "I could NEVER worship a God that expects me to repent over sins that I don't think are wrong".
Does that mean God apologizes & removes repentance for them?

I've heard people say that they wouldn't worship our God bcuz of His wrath in the OT.! Now what! Do we claim it didn't happen? Lie? Tell them God's temper is better now? :/

The fact that people give their excuses doesn't make TRUTH go away for them. What did Jesus say about who follows Him?
Pay close attn:

Mat. 10:
36and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD. ​

37"He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

38"And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. ​

We're turning God into a sappy, wimpy BEGGAR as if He's out there gravelling, whining & begging people to please come to Him - as if He's out there changing all His rules just to get people to love Him!!.
How lowly are we painting our Lord??! Have we forgotten His majesty??
Here's another verse:

Heb. 10:
27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. ​

28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? ​

God is loving, BUT LETS NOT REMOVE HIS MAJESTY and paint Him into a sappy, gravelling wimp that BEGS people to love Him & please worship Him.
Love doesn't come at the expense of His own majesty & righteousness.

 

[GuardianShua]

Hmm, so does that mean that every OTHER excuse non Christians use negates everything else too?

All of the things you listed are seprate issues. It is not unreasonable for me to be apposed to a teaching, that was not originally taught by the disciples or the prophets.

 

[Tavita]

K, Romans 1 covers this - and God gives everyone revelation of Himself. There are several types of Revelations that God gives all people to know Him by.

There's our inner conscience (moral revelation) - you see this in Romans 2:14-15 where gentiles without the law are judged by their obedience to their concience/ it becomes a 'LAW' unto themselves. We all have a moral code of knowing right and wrong.
Then there's general revelation - Creation itself is proof of God - there's no one without excuse to VISUALLY SEE God's handiwork and know He exists and is our Creator.
Then there's special revelation where God is directly calling them personally within their hearts. Most Christians I know have had direct 'contacts' where they knew God was working in them or speaking to them & convicting them to repent.

Every person is responsible to respond to whatever amount of Light God gives them to come to Him by. So no one is without any excuse by the time they die.
And they're judged righteously too - if God didn't give them the Bible, He certainly isn't going to be judging them on what they didn't know from it or couldn't know.

Yes, I agree with you 100%, I hope I didn't say anything different. Did I?

Have you forgotten that there are DEGREES of punishment and DEGREES of reward? Do you think God is unfair? That He can't know how to correctly judge or punish?
Maybe YOUR idea of punishment is way too soft than what God has in mind; how do you know? We see God's wrath in physical life - striking people dead for lying or grabbing the ark of the covenant before it falls to the ground, sending down brimstone & hail & wiping out entire cities, striking a woman with leprosy for griping against Moses, sending earthquakes that swallowed people up who rebelled.... the lists go on.

Yes, I know there are degrees of punishment. I've been trying to tell others that but to no avail.

Did you also realize that in the Law, and that is what you are talking about, right?, the worst punishment for sin was death, as you said above. There was no punishment that was anything like torture. When a person was judged it was in accordance to the crime committed. Punishment was always given after one has been judged.

That's all I'm trying to say. Punishment comes after judgment, and it hasn't happened yet.

Well, according to Luke 16, it's not so restful while they await sentencing for their life.
I only brought up universalism bcuz you promote it - I thought somehow your statement might have had something to do w/ it - nothing more.

Then stop bringing it up.

The parable of Abraham's Bosom has been shown to be about the kingdom being taken from the house of Judah and given to the Gentiles, as in the judgment that came against them when the Temple was destroyed along with Jerusalem. It is a parable and not to be taken literally, it's not meant to be a teaching on hell.

Another thing Nadiine.. I'd like to apologize to you again for my attitude towards you sometimes. I'm starting to get use to you and the way you post (it's taken awhile) and I just want to say that I love you in the Lord.

 

[GuardianShua]

This information comes from the Holman bible dictionary: Hades was the Greek god of the underworld: Gehenna is the Greek word derived from the Hebrew words ge hinnom meaning, "vally of Hinnom." It was a place on the South side of Jerusalem used to worship pagan gods of the underworld: Tartaroo is the Greek word for the place or underworld of the dead. Like I said, the Catholic Church introduced the Pagan religion of hell into Christianity. And the word hell is used to replace the words grave or pit. Now I ask you, would God approve of Paganism being added to His truth; The bible; the word of God spoken and written by the prophets? It is not unreasonable for me to be opposed to a teaching that was not originally taught by the disciples or prophets.

 

[DarkNLovely]

This information comes from the Holman bible dictionary: Hades was the Greek god of the underworld: Gehenna is the Greek word derived from the Hebrew words ge hinnom meaning, "vally of Hinnom." It was a place on the South side of Jerusalem used to worship pagan gods of the underworld: Tartaroo is the Greek word for the place or underworld of the dead. Like I said, the Catholic Church introduced the Pagan religion of hell into Christianity. And the word hell is used to replace the words grave or pit. Now I ask you, would God approve of Paganism being added to His truth; The bible; the word of God spoken and written by the prophets? It is not unreasonable for me to be opposed to a teaching that was not originally taught by the disciples or prophets.

You have no knowledge of history! You keep goin on about the Catholic religion. What about the Christians before them, namely the Orthodox? Didn't they also believe in Hell? Unfortunatly, it seems you are a conformist ans, well, nobody but God can help that. I can not believe that you are ACTUALLY denying facts because non-Christians don't like hell. They blaspheme Him over anything. They are always looking for good excuses. Why do you care what people think anyway? Like I said, you would never surive in an argument against a Greek or Orthodox. Never. I'm assuming you are Torah observant? It absolutly states in the OT that we should keep the Moedim and Shabbos and other laws of God. Anything less than that could be argued as paganism.

 

[Nadiine]

All of the things you listed are seprate issues. It is not unreasonable for me to be apposed to a teaching, that was not originally taught by the disciples or the prophets.

Michael, they really aren't separate issues once you get down to the source:
1) they're excuses people use to hate God or find reasons to keep from repenting bcuz they already don't WANT HIM.
2) the reasons they give ARE TRUE principles of God or about God which repulse them and/or make them furious which continues to keep them away.

God is telling them "you have to GIVE ME YOUR LIFE as a living sacrifice, turn from sin and live my way for ME until you die". this is NOT popular with the vast majority who are slaves to their sin natures & enjoy their life without God.
Is it any wonder Jesus said this?
Matthew 7:13
" Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Do a study on remnants - you'll see that God is interested in QUALITY of His followers - not solely quantity. At one point, God said to Ezekiel that there only 7000 people He kept as a remnant that hadn't bowed to the false gods.
Look at the flood - God wiped out all but 8 people.

All thru the Bible we have God working with small numbers & remnants. Just bcuz people won't come to Him due to condemnation in "hell" doesn't mean it's not true - & if it keeps people from Him, ... SO BE IT. He hasn't changed His principles to win people over - as if he turns into Joel Osteen for everybody to get them to love Him.
He already tells us that the vast majority WON'T accept Him, He knows it already.

Hell IS taught in the Bible - so is the lake of fire. It's taught directly AND in parable forms. Jesus said:

Matthew 5:30
" If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.​

Luke 12:5
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.​

Matthew 10:28
"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

Matt. 23:33
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?​

Hell in Grk: Geenna
1) Hell is the place of the future punishment call "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.​

I can't just read these passages in my Bible, then decide "they don't belong in here" when the warnings are so clear as to its existance.
Revelation 20 gives further detail on Gehenna & what/who gets cast into it.
Am I to start deciding what's true & false in my bible when it teaches something specific? Just throw it out bcuz it sounds terrible or harsh? That's tampering with information AND WARNINGS given to us.​

I don't like the thought of it any more than you do - but I can't simply reject it on those grounds either.
One last thing, we ALWAYS have to keep in mind that GOD IS JUST and He's fair.
There are levels of punishment as there are levels of reward - everything is balanced by God. We either TRUST HIM that He is completely just and will righteously dole out due recompense to us all (good OR bad), or we think God is unfair & cruel and unjust.​

 

[Nadiine]

Yes, I agree with you 100%, I hope I didn't say anything different. Did I?

Only that your post kind of implied [to me] that all these people who haven't been given a bible or been verbally taught about Christ (in whatever remote, isolated areas they live cutoff from most human contact) are just thrown into torment when they had no way of knowing about the God of Israel --
Each person is given a revelation... by the way, I forgot to add one other revelation that I thought of last nite, DIVINE Revelation - where God directly does something visible that's proving Himself. Like with Paul on the road to Damascus... like Jesus' miracles in front of the people etc.
Many had visual proofs and still rejected Christ. (so much for those who demand that God appear to them & perform cheap parlour tricks to prove He exists).

Yes, I know there are degrees of punishment. I've been trying to tell others that but to no avail.

I know, people seem to be hung up on "sin is sin"... well, ANY SIN is enough to land us in condemnation unless repented, BUT THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PENALTY PHASE at sentencing time.
For the life of me I can't fathom why people reject degrees of punishment according to people's acts - as if our own court systems don't operate this way which we all admit is FAIR.
Any judge sentencing a man to 5 years in prison for stealing a pencil at his workplace and giving a serial killer an equal 5 years for murdering 10 women would be kicked out of his position for such a violation of justice.

We even hold this balance of fairness & expect it towards others, yet they refuse to apply it with God -WHO IS THE LEGISLATOR OF ALL TRUE JUSTICE!
(& to turn it around, would they want God to give them equal reward as someone else who did much LESS to serve God? - NO. They'de want exactly what their fair share OR MORE.)

Did you also realize that in the Law, and that is what you are talking about, right?, the worst punishment for sin was death, as you said above. There was no punishment that was anything like torture. When a person was judged it was in accordance to the crime committed. Punishment was always given after one has been judged.

I just gave some verses in my prev. post on hell - all I can say is, WE HAVE TO GO BY WHAT'S WRITTEN, not what we WANT it to be.
Annihilationism has it's own doctrinal troubles - it's not widely accepted & there are websites that refute it pretty well.
Basically, annihilationism is "release" from punishment, not punishment. **I will say that I find more biblical plausiblity for that theory than I do Universalism - if that's any consolation.

That's all I'm trying to say. Punishment comes after judgment, and it hasn't happened yet.

Well, I personally think punishment comes AT DEATH -- once we're dead, judgment.
"It is appointed man once to die, THEN judgment". For the saint, "absent from the body, present with the Lord". (I view it that way only bcuz Jesus went at His death to take the captives with Him to paradise)..?

I'd again mention Luke 16:19-31 - (which I go into later)
basically, IF torment in HELL (awaiting sentencing) ISN'T TRUE, THEN JESUS PURPOSELY CONFUSED US when He didn't have to!
NOBODY knows what happens in the afterlife but GOD ALONE (and all who have died & are already there) -
SO WHY IS JESUS TELLING US SUCH A STORY if no one is in hell,or if there's no "hell", if there's no torment after the unsaved die, etc. etc.
This is really an injustice Jesus has done if it's not the case - it's just totally unecessary to use in drawing a parallel to something completely unrelated to it.
(ie, it actually FORMS new opinions and questions other than defining the subject - it raises NEW issues and principles rather than just drawing a simple parallel to the subject for easier understanding; confusing or complicating the issue more... which defeats the purpose of a parable.

Nadine: I only brought up universalism bcuz you promote it - I thought somehow your statement might have had something to do w/ it - nothing more.

Then stop bringing it up.

Why stop bringing it up? Read the Thread subject. It's ABOUT hell. Why would I NOT take your currently known worldview into consideration on these topics???
To ignore your worldview on topics of hell & condemnation would be pretty silly imho.

The parable of Abraham's Bosom has been shown to be about the kingdom being taken from the house of Judah and given to the Gentiles, as in the judgment that came against them when the Temple was destroyed along with Jerusalem. It is a parable and not to be taken literally, it's not meant to be a teaching on hell.

Websters on Parable:
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin parabola, from Greek parabolE comparison, from paraballein to compare, from para- + ballein to throw -- more at [SIZE=-1]DEVIL[/SIZE]
: [SIZE=-1]EXAMPLE[/SIZE]; specifically : a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle

Info about Parables:
Generally speaking, a parable is a fictitious tale, although usually realistic. The normal purpose of Bible parables was to convey a higher, spiritual truth.

Because parables resemble probable happenings, some Bible scholars believe the stories actually happened. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus found in Luke 16:19-31 is one such example. Some argue that this parable includes real people and events; others believe that it was a fictional lesson directed by Jesus at the hardened hearts of His day.
http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/parables-of-jesus.htm


Here's Wiki's entry on Jesus' parables:
The parables of Jesus, found in the synoptic gospels, embody much of Jesus' teaching. Jesus' parables are quite simple, memorable stories, often with humble imagery, each with a single message.
Jesus, for example, likened the Kingdom of God to leaven (an image usually meant as corruption) or a mustard seed. Like his aphorisms, Jesus' parables were often surprising and paradoxical.
The parable of the good Samaritan, for example, turned expectations on their head with the despised Samaritan proving to be the wounded man's neighbor. The parables were simple and memorable enough to survive in an oral tradition before being written down years after Jesus' death.
His parables are sometimes interpreted as allegories in the gospels themselves and in Christian tradition. In such an allegory, each element corresponds metaphorically to a class of people (e.g., false Christians), a heavenly reward, or some other topic. The gospel of John includes allegories but no parables.

Parables TEACH SOMETHING SIMILAR and are simple.
Let me ask this too - if it's only about God's kingdom going to the Gentiles, WHY ARE THE JEWS ALL DEAD (Both the rich man & Lazarus are dead).
Wouldn't the parable just stop at showing the kingdom is given over to the other?
Instead, it goes into the PUNISHMENT & TORMENT phases in elaborate detail.
And, are ALL JEWS REMOVED FROM GOD'S KINGDOM? No, we're merely GRAFTED IN to their branch. We didn't TAKE OVER God's kingdom and the Jews are cut off and left in the dust w/ no promise from God for restoration.
(ie replacement theology)

If this "parable" is what you say it is, ISRAEL IS CUT OFF AND GONE and the Gentiles took it over instead. (not true Romans 11).

Also, JESUS ALREADY GAVE A PARABLE ABOUT THE GENTILES coming into the "flock". "I have other sheep" that He will bring in.
Jesus already taught this in parable form using Sheep & pastures... why use the AFTERLIFE in extreme torments?

THEN, the bad rich man at the end asks if he can be released to go out and warn his brothers of this place:
27 "Then the rich man said, `Please, Father Abraham, send him to my father's home.
28 For I have five brothers, and I want him to warn them about this place of torment so they won't have to come here when they die.'
29 "But Abraham said, `Moses and the prophets have warned them. Your brothers can read their writings anytime they want to.'
30 "The rich man replied, `No, Father Abraham! But if someone is sent to them from the dead, then they will turn from their sins.'
31 "But Abraham said, `If they won't listen to Moses and the prophets, they won't listen even if someone rises from the dead.' "
Look at these verses in context -
This is about believing the testimony God gives - thru His prophets.
IF THEY REJECT MOSES & THE PROPHETS TESTIMONY, THEY WON'T BELIEVE EVEN ONE RISING FROM THE DEAD.
It's ANY who reject Christ that will be where the rich man is; NOT ONLY JEWS - BUT GENTILES AS WELL.

Another thing Nadiine.. I'd like to apologize to you again for my attitude towards you sometimes. I'm starting to get use to you and the way you post (it's taken awhile) and I just want to say that I love you in the Lord.

.
Thank you for that, and I apologize for making you (& others) angry... I don't mean to be a pitbull w/ lipstick as if I'm on some mission to take people down - I just am very passionate about doctrine.
I added a little note on my profile when I joined that I had a debate style - my motive is love for God & His word... and so people will accept God for who He is - including the negatives we may take issue with.

I see it butchered or ignored so much (I've been debating for some 12 years now), that after time goes by, you just get "calloused" & frustrated seeing false stuff being thrown around as truth. (yes I know, that's MY OPINION) =0)~
I also don't claim to know it all either - I'm careful to stay only on topics that I've put some study into or that I'm familiar with... there's alot of threads here I'm not qualified to debate in so I stay out.

But that's why I've gotten so adamant about it; I wasn't always like this when I first started... over time I've just seen things get worse -
& my personality is loud, very exuberant and expressive on top of it - I have alot of energy & am peppy ..., so this is kind of the result. LOL I try hard not to be obnoxious - I restrain myself alot.
Anyways I don't HATE anyone, I don't personally attack anyone, nor will I; that's rude & mean & not my spirit at all.

So thanks for that, I hope my explanation about my post style helps; for whatever it's worth.

 

[Tavita]

Only that your post kind of implied [to me] that all these people who haven't been given a bible or been verbally taught about Christ (in whatever remote, isolated areas they live cutoff from most human contact) are just thrown into torment when they had no way of knowing about the God of Israel --
Each person is given a revelation... by the way, I forgot to add one other revelation that I thought of last nite, DIVINE Revelation - where God directly does something visible that's proving Himself. Like with Paul on the road to Damascus... like Jesus' miracles in front of the people etc.
Many had visual proofs and still rejected Christ. (so much for those who demand that God appear to them & perform cheap parlour tricks to prove He exists).


I know, people seem to be hung up on "sin is sin"... well, ANY SIN is enough to land us in condemnation unless repented, BUT THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PENALTY PHASE at sentencing time.
For the life of me I can't fathom why people reject degrees of punishment according to people's acts - as if our own court systems don't operate this way which we all admit is FAIR.
Any judge sentencing a man to 5 years in prison for stealing a pencil at his workplace and giving a serial killer an equal 5 years for murdering 10 women would be kicked out of his position for such a violation of justice.

We even hold this balance of fairness & expect it towards others, yet they refuse to apply it with God -WHO IS THE LEGISLATOR OF ALL TRUE JUSTICE!
(& to turn it around, would they want God to give them equal reward as someone else who did much LESS to serve God? - NO. They'de want exactly what their fair share OR MORE.)


I just gave some verses in my prev. post on hell - all I can say is, WE HAVE TO GO BY WHAT'S WRITTEN, not what we WANT it to be.
Annihilationism has it's own doctrinal troubles - it's not widely accepted & there are websites that refute it pretty well.
Basically, annihilationism is "release" from punishment, not punishment. **I will say that I find more biblical plausiblity for that theory than I do Universalism - if that's any consolation.


Well, I personally think punishment comes AT DEATH -- once we're dead, judgment.
"It is appointed man once to die, THEN judgment". For the saint, "absent from the body, present with the Lord". (I view it that way only bcuz Jesus went at His death to take the captives with Him to paradise)..?

I'd again mention Luke 16:19-31 - (which I go into later)
basically, IF torment in HELL (awaiting sentencing) ISN'T TRUE, THEN JESUS PURPOSELY CONFUSED US when He didn't have to!
NOBODY knows what happens in the afterlife but GOD ALONE (and all who have died & are already there) -
SO WHY IS JESUS TELLING US SUCH A STORY if no one is in hell,or if there's no "hell", if there's no torment after the unsaved die, etc. etc.
This is really an injustice Jesus has done if it's not the case - it's just totally unecessary to use in drawing a parallel to something completely unrelated to it.
(ie, it actually FORMS new opinions and questions other than defining the subject - it raises NEW issues and principles rather than just drawing a simple parallel to the subject for easier understanding; confusing or complicating the issue more... which defeats the purpose of a parable.



Why stop bringing it up? Read the Thread subject. It's ABOUT hell. Why would I NOT take your currently known worldview into consideration on these topics???
To ignore your worldview on topics of hell & condemnation would be pretty silly imho.


Websters on Parable:
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin parabola, from Greek parabolE comparison, from paraballein to compare, from para- + ballein to throw -- more at [SIZE=-1]DEVIL[/SIZE]
: [SIZE=-1]EXAMPLE[/SIZE]; specifically : a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle

Info about Parables:
Generally speaking, a parable is a fictitious tale, although usually realistic. The normal purpose of Bible parables was to convey a higher, spiritual truth.

Because parables resemble probable happenings, some Bible scholars believe the stories actually happened. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus found in Luke 16:19-31 is one such example. Some argue that this parable includes real people and events; others believe that it was a fictional lesson directed by Jesus at the hardened hearts of His day.
http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/parables-of-jesus.htm


Here's Wiki's entry on Jesus' parables:
The parables of Jesus, found in the synoptic gospels, embody much of Jesus' teaching. Jesus' parables are quite simple, memorable stories, often with humble imagery, each with a single message.
Jesus, for example, likened the Kingdom of God to leaven (an image usually meant as corruption) or a mustard seed. Like his aphorisms, Jesus' parables were often surprising and paradoxical.
The parable of the good Samaritan, for example, turned expectations on their head with the despised Samaritan proving to be the wounded man's neighbor. The parables were simple and memorable enough to survive in an oral tradition before being written down years after Jesus' death.
His parables are sometimes interpreted as allegories in the gospels themselves and in Christian tradition. In such an allegory, each element corresponds metaphorically to a class of people (e.g., false Christians), a heavenly reward, or some other topic. The gospel of John includes allegories but no parables.

Parables TEACH SOMETHING SIMILAR and are simple.
Let me ask this too - if it's only about God's kingdom going to the Gentiles, WHY ARE THE JEWS ALL DEAD (Both the rich man & Lazarus are dead).
Wouldn't the parable just stop at showing the kingdom is given over to the other?
Instead, it goes into the PUNISHMENT & TORMENT phases in elaborate detail.
And, are ALL JEWS REMOVED FROM GOD'S KINGDOM? No, we're merely GRAFTED IN to their branch. We didn't TAKE OVER God's kingdom and the Jews are cut off and left in the dust w/ no promise from God for restoration.
(ie replacement theology)

If this "parable" is what you say it is, ISRAEL IS CUT OFF AND GONE and the Gentiles took it over instead. (not true Romans 11).

Also, JESUS ALREADY GAVE A PARABLE ABOUT THE GENTILES coming into the "flock". "I have other sheep" that He will bring in.
Jesus already taught this in parable form using Sheep & pastures... why use the AFTERLIFE in extreme torments?

THEN, the bad rich man at the end asks if he can be released to go out and warn his brothers of this place:
27 "Then the rich man said, `Please, Father Abraham, send him to my father's home.
28 For I have five brothers, and I want him to warn them about this place of torment so they won't have to come here when they die.'
29 "But Abraham said, `Moses and the prophets have warned them. Your brothers can read their writings anytime they want to.'
30 "The rich man replied, `No, Father Abraham! But if someone is sent to them from the dead, then they will turn from their sins.'
31 "But Abraham said, `If they won't listen to Moses and the prophets, they won't listen even if someone rises from the dead.' "
Look at these verses in context -
This is about believing the testimony God gives - thru His prophets.
IF THEY REJECT MOSES & THE PROPHETS TESTIMONY, THEY WON'T BELIEVE EVEN ONE RISING FROM THE DEAD.
It's ANY who reject Christ that will be where the rich man is; NOT ONLY JEWS - BUT GENTILES AS WELL.

.
Thank you for that, and I apologize for making you (& others) angry... I don't mean to be a pitbull w/ lipstick as if I'm on some mission to take people down - I just am very passionate about doctrine.
I added a little note on my profile when I joined that I had a debate style - my motive is love for God & His word... and so people will accept God for who He is - including the negatives we may take issue with.

I see it butchered or ignored so much (I've been debating for some 12 years now), that after time goes by, you just get "calloused" & frustrated seeing false stuff being thrown around as truth. (yes I know, that's MY OPINION) =0)~
I also don't claim to know it all either - I'm careful to stay only on topics that I've put some study into or that I'm familiar with... there's alot of threads here I'm not qualified to debate in so I stay out.

But that's why I've gotten so adamant about it; I wasn't always like this when I first started... over time I've just seen things get worse -
& my personality is loud, very exuberant and expressive on top of it - I have alot of energy & am peppy ..., so this is kind of the result. LOL I try hard not to be obnoxious - I restrain myself alot.
Anyways I don't HATE anyone, I don't personally attack anyone, nor will I; that's rude & mean & not my spirit at all.

So thanks for that, I hope my explanation about my post style helps; for whatever it's worth.

Yes, thank you for your explanation, Nadiine. And I hope you can see how it can get a persons back up. God says we're to be gentle in our conversations with others (I know I don't do that either.. which seems to be a lot lately ).

Col 4:6 Let your speech be always with grace, having been seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one.

2Ti 2:24 But the servant of the Lord must not strive, but to be gentle to all, apt to teach, patient,

Nadiine talking...

Well, Um....
Is God obligated to be providing them Champagne, Caviar, Las Vegas shows and harems until their number comes up for the White Throne judgment?

What is the point you're trying to make here? That becuz they're suffering BEFORE their judgment, they will "get out" after it?

This part is Tavita talking...

Excuse me? You've got to be kidding!

Those who have accepted Christ are already with Him. But what of those who have never heard of Him? What of those who have never had the opportunity to accept Him? There are multitudes. All of them will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment... by their works. Now you've got them already judged with their punishment already metered out before judgment? You want God to torment and torture them before judgment? We don't even do that in our courts of law.

I realize you said I 'seemed' to imply "that all these people who haven't been given a bible or been verbally taught about Christ (in whatever remote, isolated areas they live cutoff from most human contact) are just thrown into torment when they had no way of knowing about the God of Israel"

I was answering your post, in blue, where I assumed you were saying all these people were being tortured or going through some kind of punishment before they had been judged. I didn't say they were suffering at all, I said they are resting until the judgment when all the dead are resurrected.

This is another example of how hard it is to post back to you. I say one thing, you counter me, and then accuse me of saying what you said???

Can you see it?

 

[Nadiine]

Yes, thank you for your explanation, Nadiine. And I hope you can see how it can get a persons back up. God says we're to be gentle in our conversations with others (I know I don't do that either.. which seems to be a lot lately).

Yes, I can see how it raises some neck hairs... there's factual information a person can give, and then there's the WAY it's delivered.
But I'm ALWAYS careful not to personally attack people with ad hom - I'm against it, I find it repulsive. It's not personal. I have no doubt that many people I debate, if I met them in regular life, we'd get along fine on a personal level...

One other thing that [namely] Christians HAVE to take into consideration is peoples personalities, but more importantly, their GIFTS.
People with different gifts have different personalities; prophets & teachers tend to lack a "coddley" demeanor to them. They focus on FACTS & information, and have to work hard to be "personable and gentle"... I've heard this from many pastors when teaching on gifts of the Spirit.
My gifts are prophecy, teaching & administrations & mercies... 3 of them lack alot of warm fuzzies -- I'm just not that way- while many other people ARE. I don't know why.
If you read the NT writers, they were FULL of harsh things to say when it came to things they saw were being done wrong by God's people or people that came to oppose truth.
Paul taught gentleness, but he was LEAST Gentle - there's our personalities, and then there's time to use rebukes, etc etc.
It needs to have some balance. My view is personal attack is not being gentle or loving - TRUTH IS. In my view, I am firm and patient - I"ve sat & repeated the same things in post after post. That IS 'patient' in my book. I think I AM gentle - you should see what I restrain myself from saying! ROFL.

Col 4:6 Let your speech be always with grace, having been seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one.
2Ti 2:24 But the servant of the Lord must not strive, but to be gentle to all, apt to teach, patient,

K, great - Let's compare this to what Jesus did with the Pharisees in Mat. 23 in His long rebuke; calling them "sons of hell" etc.
Making a whip & overturning tables IN ANGER & physically kicking out merchants at the temple.

The issue and conflict is, WHAT WE PERCIEVE GRACE TO BE. What we percieve longsuffering to be, love, gentleness...
As far as God's concerned, DISCIPLINE proves true love for child! Discipline is a part of love... outwardly, it looks mean & hateful but it isn't.
Same with rebuke and reprimand and correction --

I can show you loads of verses where harsh rebuke is promoted or used -
Take a read of Acts 8 & how Paul reacts with Simon the sorcerer; a new "convert"!!!
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%208:9-24;&version=9;
I can promise you, I would NOT have treated Simon that way whatsoever! I would of stood there & KINDLY explained his misunderstanding & sent him on his merry way, Paul tears him to shreds. OUCH.

My verses of rebuke & harshness don't COUNTER your verses on being kind & gentle, THEY ARE TO BE BALANCED depending on the circumstances & situations & people we're involved with at any given time & place. Never EITHER / OR as if they nullify another.
Discernment is what lets us know when to use which method (hopefully we react correctly & do it right).

I realize you said I 'seemed' to imply "that all these people who haven't been given a bible or been verbally taught about Christ (in whatever remote, isolated areas they live cutoff from most human contact) are just thrown into torment when they had no way of knowing about the God of Israel"

I was answering your post, in blue, where I assumed you were saying all these people were being tortured or going through some kind of punishment before they had been judged. I didn't say they were suffering at all, I said they are resting until the judgment when all the dead are resurrected.

This is another example of how hard it is to post back to you. I say one thing, you counter me, and then accuse me of saying what you said???

Can you see it?

I THINK I see what you mite be talking about, and it's SO hard for me to put it together & make sense, I'll just ask if what you mean is this: I'm making a 'correction' or a disagreement to your post then what I say is exactly what you had just said?
If so, I'll try to either be more clear to the part I'm pointing out or something... alot of times your replies say a few things and if I hit on one thing, then I ELABORATE FULLY on my meaning, and sometimes I agree that it's what you agree with (I kinda just put it all together & part of it agrees with your post parts).

(so hard to relay) -

K, I'm posting what I think you're talking about in our prev. posts:

Quote:
Nadiine talking...

Well, Um....
Is God obligated to be providing them Champagne, Caviar, Las Vegas shows and harems until their number comes up for the White Throne judgment?

What is the point you're trying to make here? That becuz they're suffering BEFORE their judgment, they will "get out" after it?

This part is Tavita talking...

Excuse me? You've got to be kidding!

Those who have accepted Christ are already with Him. But what of those who have never heard of Him? What of those who have never had the opportunity to accept Him? There are multitudes. All of them will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment... by their works. Now you've got them already judged with their punishment already metered out before judgment? You want God to torment and torture them before judgment? We don't even do that in our courts of law.

(this is getting confusing now LOL)

My point in it is: they are already found "guilty", and "hell" isn't their 'punishment'... the ultimate punishment awaits. They're ALREADY FOUND GUILTY BCUZ THEY'RE NOT WITH GOD like the Believers are after death.
Hell is their "wake up call" to what awaits them and that they ARE guilty.

As an analogy to help illustrate what I liken hell to: is more like a "waiting room" - waiting for the sentencing phase.
The "waiting room" they're in is one that shows they're already found guilty bcuz they aren't WITH GOD, they're in a very unpleasant place.
I'm basically saying that Hell isn't their "punishment" yet, it's just a horrible waiting room. They're already found guilty bcuz their judge is GOD - not some human judge that needs to learn and see the facts to form an opinion; God's opinion & judgment are already MADE & the books already written.

And is it any wonder that the Bible says those lost souls are "gnashing their teeth"? They're FURIOUS at God. - far from repentant.

The court date (white throne) is just the formality of sentencing for the guilt - that formality is FOR THE PERSON to know why they're going there & recognize what they did... it's not for God. He could just send everybody where they're supposed to go without ANY "court"... He already knows everything.

Kinda like in the Garden after Adam & Eve got fig leaves to cover themselves up, and God walks in the garden later & asks "Adam, where are you?". Did God NOT know where they were & what they did? They were already cowering & hiding in fear/guilt -
The question was for THEM, not God. Kinda my point there w/ a formal sentencing to go thru their works in their life.

They're going to be forced to have to Bow before God and admit He is LORD at that sentencing too - to His glory, but their fate is already sealed by their works.

So no, I don't view Hell as the punishment - it's just a nasty place to await the final sentencing bcuz they're already found guilty by an all-knowing God. (and as I always add, I believe there are DEGREES in hell as there are Gehenna - God is just.

 

[plmarquette]

The INTERPRETATION "hades or gehenna" is in the K.J.V. You will not find the word "hades" in the N.I.V. Old Testament, however you will find the word "hades" in the N.I.V. New Testament as a INTERPRETATION for "grave." As for God raising the condemed back to life, no one can say for certain, because it is given in parabolic form. Maybe He will or may be He wont; no one knows. I know the bible is difficult to understand at times, but there is rhyme and reason. People keep asking me for proof and I keep referring to the bible and the EXAUSTIVE CONCORDANCE. If you dont have the K.J.V. bible and Strong's Exaustive Concordance, along with the N.I.V. bible and Exaustive Concordance, well then, you are not going to see the truth for yourself. Are the words you are reading a translation, or an interpretation? What you are taught as Christians depends on who's team your on.

The NIV omits part of Mark 16 ...
The NIV is a paraphrase bible
The KJV, NAB, DR are transliterated ( close to word for word)

Jesus , the disciples, and fathers spoke of the second death ( of the spirit ) of 1 life , then judgement... John speaks of the same in the book of revelation ...

there is a type of hell in the old covenant with Jannes and Jambres and the rebellion of Korah ... where the ground opens and they are swallowed up ...

Jesus said that my words that you believe and act upon will defend you and my words that you reject will prosecute you ...in the last days...

www.blueletterbible.com or www.biblegateway.com has an online concordance and 10+ different bible translations in several languages to look up and compare transliterations (closest word for our language, for there are words in armamic, hebrew, and greek that are not in our language)

 

[GuardianShua]

The NIV omits part of Mark 16 ...
The NIV is a paraphrase bible
The KJV, NAB, DR are transliterated ( close to word for word)

Jesus , the disciples, and fathers spoke of the second death ( of the spirit ) of 1 life , then judgement... John speaks of the same in the book of revelation ...

there is a type of hell in the old covenant with Jannes and Jambres and the rebellion of Korah ... where the ground opens and they are swallowed up ...

Jesus said that my words that you believe and act upon will defend you and my words that you reject will prosecute you ...in the last days...

www.blueletterbible.com or www.biblegateway.com has an online concordance and 10+ different bible translations in several languages to look up and compare transliterations (closest word for our language, for there are words in armamic, hebrew, and greek that are not in our language)

This information comes from the Holman bible dictionary: Hades was the Greek god of the underworld: Gehenna is the Greek word derived from the Hebrew words ge hinnom meaning, "vally of Hinnom." It was a place on the South side of Jerusalem used to worship pagan gods of the underworld: Tartaroo is the Greek word for the place or underworld of the dead. Like I said, the Catholic Church introduced the Pagan religion of hell into Christianity. And the word hell is used to replace the words grave or pit. Now I ask you, would God approve of Paganism being added to His truth; The bible; the word of God spoken and written by the prophets? It is not unreasonable for me to be opposed to a teaching that was not originally taught by the disciples or prophets.

 

[Nadiine]

This information comes from the Holman bible dictionary: Hades was the Greek god of the underworld: Gehenna is the Greek word derived from the Hebrew words ge hinnom meaning, "vally of Hinnom." It was a place on the South side of Jerusalem used to worship pagan gods of the underworld: Tartaroo is the Greek word for the place or underworld of the dead. Like I said, the Catholic Church introduced the Pagan religion of hell into Christianity. And the word hell is used to replace the words grave or pit. Now I ask you, would God approve of Paganism being added to His truth; The bible; the word of God spoken and written by the prophets? It is not unreasonable for me to be opposed to a teaching that was not originally taught by the disciples or prophets.

Did the Catholic church write the NT??? People also claim that the Trinity came from PAGAN origins too - when it did not.
Satan COPIES what is true - you have an unholy "trinity" in Revelation: Satan, the false prophet and the antichrist - all 3 working against God's kingdom.

It doesn't mean pagans made it up, THEY TOOK WHAT WAS ALREADY TRUE ABOUT GOD AND MIMICKED IT.
Satan copies and corrupts what is good.

Satan didn't KNOW it was called Hell? Satan didn't KNOW to put it into the minds of the unsaved to use a real name or concept and corrupt it with something false?

What you're saying doesn't NULLIFY what's written plainly in your bible. Unless now you're claiming that the entire NT is corrupted by paganism?

 

[Zecryphon]

Hmm, so does that mean that every OTHER excuse non Christians use negates everything else too?

If a nonChristian says, "I would NEVER worship a God that forced me to stop having sex with whoever I wanted!!!"
Does that mean God gives in & says "go ahead, just PLEASE worship Me?"

If a nonChristian says "I could NEVER worship a God that doesn't let me worship other gods & goddesses I believe in"
Does that mean God gives in & says "go ahead & worship them, I'm sorry - please just worship Me sometimes"

If a nonChristian says "I could NEVER worship a God that expects me to repent over sins that I don't think are wrong".
Does that mean God apologizes & removes repentance for them?

I've heard people say that they wouldn't worship our God bcuz of His wrath in the OT.! Now what! Do we claim it didn't happen? Lie? Tell them God's temper is better now? :/

The fact that people give their excuses doesn't make TRUTH go away for them. What did Jesus say about who follows Him?
Pay close attn:

Mat. 10:
36and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD. ​

37"He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

38"And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. ​

We're turning God into a sappy, wimpy BEGGAR as if He's out there gravelling, whining & begging people to please come to Him - as if He's out there changing all His rules just to get people to love Him!!.
How lowly are we painting our Lord??! Have we forgotten His majesty??
Here's another verse:

Heb. 10:
27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. ​

28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? ​

God is loving, BUT LETS NOT REMOVE HIS MAJESTY and paint Him into a sappy, gravelling wimp that BEGS people to love Him & please worship Him.
Love doesn't come at the expense of His own majesty & righteousness.

This reminds me of the story of the rich young ruler who went away sad when Jesus told him to sell all he had and then to come follow Him. Jesus knew that the rich young ruler loved money more than anything else, so His command was a test that bore out that truth for the rich young ruler. He exposed the sin of this young man using the law. When the law is used, conviction of sin is always the result. That's what the young ruler was feeling as he walked away saddened.

We certainly don't see Jesus acting as people today think He should have acted. We don't see Jesus calling after him "Okay, only half your possessions? A third? Okay, okay, you drive a hard bargain, a quarter of your possessions and that's my final offer." People want to wheel and deal with God, when God's terms are absolute.

 

[GuardianShua]

Did the Catholic church write the NT??? People also claim that the Trinity came from PAGAN origins too - when it did not.
Satan COPIES what is true - you have an unholy "trinity" in Revelation: Satan, the false prophet and the antichrist - all 3 working against God's kingdom.

It doesn't mean pagans made it up, THEY TOOK WHAT WAS ALREADY TRUE ABOUT GOD AND MIMICKED IT.
Satan copies and corrupts what is good.

Satan didn't KNOW it was called Hell? Satan didn't KNOW to put it into the minds of the unsaved to use a real name or concept and corrupt it with something false?

What you're saying doesn't NULLIFY what's written plainly in your bible. Unless now you're claiming that the entire NT is corrupted by paganism?

They took from christians the scripture and changed it to their liking. Constantine the Great, who proclaimed himself head of the Christian Church, was at the same time the Pagan high priest.

 

[SoundCard]

What about the dead sea scrolls? Don't they pretty much line up with what we find in Scripture today? And those were sealed up for over some 2000 years.

 

[GuardianShua]

What about the dead sea scrolls? Don't they pretty much line up with what we find in Scripture today? And those were sealed up for over some 2000 years.

But when reading a parabol a person must be careful not to be to literal.

 

[Nadiine]

But when reading a parabol a person must be careful not to be to literal.

Not so actually.... what of the Prodigal son? That HAS been a literal occurance.

Parables SIMPLIFY A TRUE PRINCIPLE - they are an analogy of something that is TRUE. To give it definition and more meaning in a simplified way.

I also claim that Luke 16 IS NOT A PARABLE AT ALL!

I claim it's a true story event. No parables use people's real names, or give names to people.
Luke 16 uses Lazarus and Abraham both -

Jesus put the thoughts into our minds even further by making this type of "parable/analogy" if it ISN'T the case.
IMHO, Jesus is guilty of starting confusion & false teachings if there's no hell or suffering in it; His story directly relays it in vivid detail - AFTER death for the "bad" person ---
who then BEGS to be let out to go warn his family of this horrible place.
He's then told NO - that if people don't accept the testimony of Moses & the prophets (OT), then they won't even believe one coming from the dead testifying that there's this bad place awaiting them.

How can that be something other than what Jesus is relaying directly???

Talk about confusion Jesus just started - parables are meant to EASILY explain a real principle in simpler terms... this is quite the opposite. It CREATES confusion if it means something else.
WHAT ELSE DOES IT MEAN? No one even knows - they can only draw speculations and this only defies what a parable is used for.
Parables are't VAGUE - they teach something in simpler format. something similar.

IF it's a parable, IT'S ABOUT TORMENT AFTER DEATH FOR PEOPLE THAT DON'T ACCEPT GOD'S TESTIMONY AND YOU CAN'T GET OUT.

 

[Nadiine]

They took from christians the scripture and changed it to their liking. Constantine the Great, who proclaimed himself head of the Christian Church, was at the same time the Pagan high priest.

Ahhh now we're getting somewhere.
Do you reject the entire bible as truth? or the NT??
What do accept from the Bible as true?

 

[GuardianShua]

Ahhh now we're getting somewhere.
Do you reject the entire bible as truth? or the NT??
What do accept from the Bible as true?

I believe the bible is about 99% accurate. And this is what I also believe. Sample of my own translation of Jude 1-6.


Jude

1. Jude, a servant of Yahshua the Messiah, and brother of James, and to them that are sanctified by Yahwah the Father, also called and saved by Yahshua the Messiah.
2. May mercy, peace, and devotion, be multiplied to you.
3. Loved, I was eager to write to you about the salvation we share, it was necessary for me to write to you, and encourage you to earnestly contend for the faith that was given to the saints.
4. Because you are unaware that certain men have sneeked in, who are of a ancient order to their condemnation, these ungodly men turn the grace of our God into immorality, and deny that the only God is Yahwah, or that our lord Yahshua is the Messiah.
5. I will remined you although you once knew this, how Yahwah, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that did not believe.
6. Those messengers did not keep their first estate, and they were removed from their place, and He has reserved for them everlasting chains of darkness for that great day of judgment. This sample is how it would read if the oldest scripture was used and the words correctly translated.