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There is no Hell (Moved)

Der Alte

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Ah but the story of the lost sheep and the lost coin aren't really actually about a lost sheep or coin are they? So then why should it be supposed that the Rich Man and Lazarus is actually about hell? As for the reality of the places described, there's Hades and then there's Abraham's bosom. Which can also be translated as Abraham's pocket. So was Lazarus actually in Abraham's chest cavity or in his pocket? And if the rich man's state in Hades is eternal, does that mean Lazarus will be in Abraham's chest or pocket for eternity?
Abraham's bosom is not a place it is a position. The position of honor at a banquet. to the right or in front of the host.
Try actually reading what I said and quoting what you have a question about. The word "parable" is derived from the Greek word "parabolo" which literally means "beside, to throw/place. To be a parable it must have a comparison, "this is like unto that." Lazarus and the rich man may be one of the other 200+ figures of speech used in the Bible but it is NOT a parable. All four ECF who quoted/referred to Lazarus and the rich man considered it factual.

No, zero, none of the unquestioned parables involve fictional, unrealistic situations. At some time in history e.g. a shepherd searched for and found a lost sheep. A widow lost and found a coin etc. What is the comparison in the story of Lazarus and the rich man? Ain't none. No parable.
Had you actually studied any of this you would know what I have posted. Rather than searching high and low for vss. which can be taken out-of-context to prove one's assumptions/presuppositions.
Much of what I said can be found in the century old Jewish Encyclopedia. But you should go there only if you are interested in the truth.
ABRAHAM'S BOSOM - JewishEncyclopedia.com
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Abraham's bosom is not a place it is a position. The position of honor at a banquet. to the right or in front of the host.
Try actually reading what I said and quoting what you have a question about. The word "parable" is derived from the Greek word "parabolo" which literally means "beside, to throw/place. To be a parable it must have a comparison, "this is like unto that." Lazarus and the rich man may be one of the other 200+ figures of speech used in the Bible but it is NOT a parable. All four ECF who quoted/referred to Lazarus and the rich man considered it factual.

No, zero, none of the unquestioned parables involve fictional, unrealistic situations. At some time in history e.g. a shepherd searched for and found a lost sheep. A widow lost and found a coin etc. What is the comparison in the story of Lazarus and the rich man? Ain't none. No parable.
Had you actually studied any of this you would know what I have posted. Rather than searching high and low for vss. which can be taken out-of-context to prove one's assumptions/presuppositions.
Much of what I said can be found in the century old Jewish Encyclopedia. But you should go there only if you are interested in the truth.
ABRAHAM'S BOSOM - JewishEncyclopedia.com

...That's strange! I'm not trying to rock your boat, but your chosen article says that the rich man was placed in Gehenna. :scratch:
 
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Der Alte

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...That's strange! I'm not trying to rock your boat, but your chosen article says that the rich man was placed in Gehenna. :scratch:
What is your point? The Jews before and during the time of Jesus referred to the place of fiery, eternal punishment as Gehenna and Hades. See my post at this link.
 
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Der Alte

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Ah but the story of the lost sheep and the lost coin aren't really actually about a lost sheep or coin are they? So then why should it be supposed that the Rich Man and Lazarus is actually about hell? As for the reality of the places described, there's Hades and then there's Abraham's bosom. Which can also be translated as Abraham's pocket. So was Lazarus actually in Abraham's chest cavity or in his pocket? And if the rich man's state in Hades is eternal, does that mean Lazarus will be in Abraham's chest or pocket for eternity?
…..The word “parable” is from the Greek word “παραβολή/parabole’” which means to place or throw beside, a parable should clarify/explain something unknown/not understood by comparing it to something known or understood. All of the unquestioned “parables” have this comparison.
Jesus identified 5 parables as such. Others identified 26 parables as such.
…..1. The Lazarus/rich man account does not have the grammatical structure of a parable it presents no worldly situation which was or can be likened to heaven. There was no comparison.
2. It is not introduced as a parable and Jesus did not explain it later to His disciples.
…..None of the unquestioned parables refer to unreasonable, fictitious or imaginary events. All of the unquestioned parables refer to real life type events which had happened at some time in history; e.g. a widow found lost coins, a shepherd found a lost sheep, a wayward son squandered all of his inheritance.
…..All of the unquestioned parables refer to anonymous people, “a certain man,”” a certain widow,””a certain land owner,” etc. The Lazarus account names two specific people, by name, “Lazarus,” otherwise unknown, and Abraham, an actual historical person, whom the rich man refers to as “father Abraham.” If Abraham was not in the place Jesus said and did not say the words Jesus quoted, then Jesus lied.
All 5 ECF who quoted/referred to the Lazarus and the rich man account considered it to be factual.See below.
[1]• Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, [120-202 AD], was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [[formerly]] bestow even the crumbs [[which fell]] from his table.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
[2]•Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection.
This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
[3]•Tertullian IX A Treatise On The Soul Chap. VII [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality . For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
[4]•Tertullian Part First A Treatise On The Soul Chapter 57
9. Moreover, the fact that Hades is not in any case opened for (the escape of) any soul , has been firmly established by the Lord in the person of Abraham, in His representation of the poor man at rest and the rich man in torment.
•The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
[5]•Methodius . [A.D. 260-312] XIX he Discourse on the Resurrection. Part III. [A.D. 260-312]
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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What is your point? The Jews before and during the time of Jesus referred to the place of fiery, eternal punishment as Gehenna and Hades. See my post at this link.

Since you're the expert, I'm guessing that you don't need my help to see what my point is ... unless, of course, you don't see my point.

:dontcare:
 
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Der Alte

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Since you're the expert, I'm guessing that you don't need my help to see what my point is ... unless, of course, you don't see my point.
Oh, you mean you actually have a cogent point?
 
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ozso

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Perhaps I misunderstood you, I thought you posted that verse as evidence that the story of Lazarus and the rich man was actually a parable and not a true story.
I did. And apparently you can't back up your statement with details, so you're beating around the bush.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Oh, you mean you actually have a cogent point?

Yes, I have a cogent point, one which may provide me with a learning point: not a learning point for you since you're the expert, but one for me.

And that point is that I thought that "Dives" went to Hades, but your Jewish Encyclopedia says he went to Gehenna.

So, why do you think there is a difference here between my understanding of what Luke 16 states and what the article in your reference states? I'm just wanting to get clear on this point so I can move on.
 
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Der Alte

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Yes, I have a cogent point, one which may provide me with a learning point: not a learning point for you since you're the expert, but one for me.
And that point is that I thought that "Dives" went to Hades, but your Jewish Encyclopedia says he went to Gehenna.
So, why do you think there is a difference here between my understanding of what Luke 16 states and what the article in your reference states? I'm just wanting to get clear on this point so I can move on.
The terms Ge henna and Hades are interchangeable. They both refer to the same place. See my post at this link.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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The terms Ge henna and Hades are interchangeable. They both refer to the same place. See my post at this link.
That's not how I've learned it. I've been under the impression that Hades isn't Gehenna, but I'll take a closer look at your sources and then compare them will all of mine.

Moreover, I take the Talmuds with a bag of salt.... so, there is that too.

Thanks!
 
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Der Alte

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That's not how I've learned it. I've been under the impression that Hades isn't Gehenna, but I'll take a closer look at your sources and then compare them will all of mine.
Moreover, I take the Talmuds with a bag of salt.... so, there is that too.
Thanks!

Deuteronomy 32:22​
(22) For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell,[שׁאול] and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
What you or I might think about the Talmud is about a irrelevant as anything can be. The Jews consider them relevant, what we think does not matter.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Deuteronomy 32:22​
(22) For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell,[שׁאול] and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
What you or I might think about the Talmud is about a irrelevant as anything can be. The Jews consider them relevant, what we think does not matter.

My apologies, but I'm not quite sure what I'm supposed to understand by your posting of Deut. 32:22, Der Alte. What are you wanting me to understand? That the English translation is rather bad or something?

Moreover, I think you're incorrect to conflate Hades with Gehenna, especially to back it up with the Talmuds (plural) which one has to flip a coin over every other paragraph in the hopes that any given Rabbi within their pages hasn't just giving the reader one of all too many diverse (and sometimes nonsensical or cerebral) opinions.

Besides, it's not as if God has left the 'final' interpretation with the non-Christian Jews, so you probably need to go easier on the Jewish eggnogg. Just say'n!
 
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Der Alte

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My apologies, but I'm not quite sure what I'm supposed to understand by your posting of Deut. 32:22, Der Alte. What are you wanting me to understand? That the English translation is rather bad or something?
Moreover, I think you're incorrect to conflate Hades with Gehenna, especially to back it up with the Talmuds (plural) which one has to flip a coin over every other paragraph in the hopes that any given Rabbi within their pages hasn't just giving the reader one of all too many diverse (and sometimes nonsensical or cerebral) opinions.
Besides, it's not as if God has left the 'final' interpretation with the non-Christian Jews, so you probably need to go easier on the Jewish eggnogg. Just say'n!
Did you actually read my OP? The Jewish scholars who wrote the Jewish Encyclopedia article I quoted referred to both Ge henna and Hades as Hell. With the exception of short quotes from the Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud everything I posted was from the Jewish Encyclopedia. I'm quite sure those Jewish scholars know their history so unsupported opinions are not relevant.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Did you actually read my OP? The Jewish scholars who wrote the Jewish Encyclopedia article I quoted referred to both Ge henna and Hades as Hell. With the exception of short quotes from the Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud everything I posted was from the Jewish Encyclopedia. I'm quite sure those Jewish scholars know their history so unsupported opinions are not relevant.

Yes, I did read it. But have you woken up yet to realize that you're not the only educated person on this website?

As for Jewish scholarship, the Talmuds aren't the kind of thing that should be making or breaking our hermeneutical and exegetical studies in the Bible. For the Christian, they can be helpful in some ways (to understand the development of Jewish thought in Judaism); in other ways they might not be an asset.

And where the concepts of Hades and Gehenna are concerned, however muddled they may seem to be to some scholars, I'm not going to solely rely upon the Talmuds to tell me the difference, most especially if I'm reading Luke 16.

Surely, you can understand what I'm saying here.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I did. And apparently you can't back up your statement with details, so you're beating around the bush.

I’m not beating around the bush, your quoting a statement that was made on a different day, at a different place, to a different group of people, about a completely different conversation. So you can’t use that statement as evidence that the story of Lazarus and the rich man was a parable because it wasn’t written in reference to that particular story.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I’m not beating around the bush, your quoting a statement that was made on a different day, at a different place, to a different group of people, about a completely different conversation. So you can’t use that statement as evidence that the story of Lazarus and the rich man was a parable because it wasn’t written in reference to that particular story.

@MMXX, @BNR32FAN

Maybe let's just let this issue lay where it is? Whether it's a parable or not is an hermeutical issue that various Christian scholars still speculate over, and I don't think it's conclusive either way.

What's important is the lesson Jesus is teaching through what He was saying by it. I'll bet both of you could agree on the meaning of it, or at least its intended importance.
 
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ozso

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I’m not beating around the bush, your quoting a statement that was made on a different day, at a different place, to a different group of people, about a completely different conversation. So you can’t use that statement as evidence that the story of Lazarus and the rich man was a parable because it wasn’t written in reference to that particular story.
In Luke 16:1-14 Jesus told the story of The Shrewd Manager. In Luke 16:19-31 Jesus told the story of The Rich Man and Lazarus. Is the parable of The Shrewd Manager also supposed to be an account of something that actually happened? Or did he tell the parable in Luke 16:1-14 in one place on one day to a certain group of people during a certain conversation... And then go do a different place on a different day to a different group of people in a different conversation for Luke 16:19-31?

Where is there any indication in Luke 16 that it was so thoroughly split into two completely separate parts going from one location, day, group and conversation to another?

 
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BNR32FAN

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In Luke 16:1-14 Jesus told the story of The Shrewd Manager. In Luke 16:19-31 Jesus told the story of The Rich Man and Lazarus. Is the parable of The Shrewd Manager also supposed to be an account of something that actually happened? Or did he tell the parable in Luke 16:1-14 in one place on one day to a certain group of people during a certain conversation... And then go do a different place on a different day to a different group of people in a different conversation for Luke 16:19-31?

Where is there any indication in Luke 16 that it was so thoroughly split into two completely separate parts going from one location, day, group and conversation to another?


No you quoted Matthew 13:34-35 trying to use that as evidence that the story of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable. That was absolutely spoken on a different day, about a different conversation, to a different group, in a different place. So when Matthew 13:34 says “all these things Jesus spoke” that is only referring to what He spoke at that time. All THESE THINGS, not everything He ever spoke to a crowd throughout His entire ministry.

“All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet: “I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things hidden since the foundation of the world.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13‬:‭34‬-‭35‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
 
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BNR32FAN

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In Luke 16:1-14 Jesus told the story of The Shrewd Manager. In Luke 16:19-31 Jesus told the story of The Rich Man and Lazarus. Is the parable of The Shrewd Manager also supposed to be an account of something that actually happened? Or did he tell the parable in Luke 16:1-14 in one place on one day to a certain group of people during a certain conversation... And then go do a different place on a different day to a different group of people in a different conversation for Luke 16:19-31?

Where is there any indication in Luke 16 that it was so thoroughly split into two completely separate parts going from one location, day, group and conversation to another?


Just to clarify I am not saying that the story is definitely a true story I’m just saying that it very well could be.
 
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BNR32FAN

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@MMXX, @BNR32FAN

Maybe let's just let this issue lay where it is? Whether it's a parable or not is an hermeutical issue that various Christian scholars still speculate over, and I don't think it's conclusive either way.

What's important is the lesson Jesus is teaching through what He was saying by it. I'll bet both of you could agree on the meaning of it, or at least its intended importance.

I agree we don’t know for sure but it’s been my experience that when a statement Jesus made has been quoted and someone replies “that was a parable” they’re insinuating that the message is invalid to support a particular idea or doctrine. The whole reason this came up was because I mentioned that the rich man was not allowed to cross over from Hades into Abraham’s bosom despite his repentant condition. The rich man realized his mistake and was still not allowed to cross over to Abraham’s bosom. So the excuse “that was a parable” was played.
 
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