There is no Hell (Moved)

[Der Alte]

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
comparison, figure, parable, proverb.
From paraballo; a similitude ("parable"), i.e. (symbolic) fictitious narrative (of common life conveying a moral), apothegm or adage -- comparison, figure, parable, proverb.

Strong's is more than a 100 years old. Here is modern scholarship. And OBTW Lazarus and the rich man is NOT a parable. No comparison

παραβολή, ῆς, ἡ (παραβάλλω; Pla., Isocr.+; ins, pap, LXX; En; TestSol 20:4; Just.; Mel., P.—JWackernagel, Parabola: IndogF 31, 1912/13, 262–67)
① someth. that serves as a model or example pointing beyond itself for later realization, type, figure παραβολὴ εἰς τὸν καιρὸν τὸν ἐνεστηκότα a symbol (pointing) to the present age Hb 9:9. ἐν παραβολῇ as a type (of the violent death and of the resurrection of Christ) 11:19. λέγει ὁ προφήτης παραβολὴν κυρίου B 6:10, where the mng. may be the prophet is uttering a parable of the Lord (Goodsp.), or the prophet speaks of the Lord in figurative language (Kleist), or the prophet speaks in figurative language given him by the Lord. W. αἴνιγμα PtK 4 p. 15, 31. The things of the present or future cannot be understood by the ordinary Christian διὰ τὸ ἐν παραβολαῖς κεῖσθαι because they are expressed in figures B 17:2.
② a narrative or saying of varying length, designed to illustrate a truth especially through comparison or simile, comparison, illustration, parable, proverb, maxim.
ⓐ in the synoptics the word refers to a variety of illustrative formulations in the teaching of Jesus (in Mt 17 times, in Mk 13 times, in Lk 18 times; cp. Euclides [400 B.C.] who, acc. to Diog. L. 2, 107, rejected ὁ διὰ παραβολῆς λόγος; Aristot., Rhet. 2, 20, 2ff; Περὶ ὕψους 37; Vi. Aesopi II p. 307, 15 Eb.; Biogr. p. 87 Ὁμήρου παραβολαί; Philo, Conf. Lingu. 99; Jos., Ant. 8, 44. The Gk. OT also used παραβολή for various words and expressions that involve comparison, including riddles [s. Jülicher below: I2 32–40].—En 1:2; 3. Cp. π. κυριακαί Iren. 1, 8, 1 [Harv I 67, 1]). For prob. OT influence on the use of comparison in narrative s. Ezk 17. λέγειν, εἰπεῖν παραβολήν: Lk 13:6; 16:19 D; 19:11 (begins the longest ‘parable’ in the synoptics: 17 verses). τινί to someone 4:23 (the briefest ‘parable’: 3 words; here and in the next passage π.=proverb, quoted by Jesus); 6:39; 18:1; 21:29. πρός τινα to someone 5:36; 12:16, 41; 14:7; 15:3; 18:9; 20:9; with reference to someone Mk 12:12; Lk 20:19. παραβολὴν λαλεῖν τινι Mt 13:33. παραβολὴν παρατιθέναι τινί put a parable before someone vss. 24, 31. τελεῖν τὰς παραβολάς finish the parables vs. 53. διασαφεῖν (v.l. φράζειν) τινι τὴν παραβολήν vs. 36. φράζειν τινὶ τὴν παρ. explain the parable 15:15. ἀκούειν Mt 13:18; 21:33, 45. γνῶναι and εἰδέναι understand Mk 4:13b et al. μαθεῖν τὴν παρ. ἀπό τινος learn the parable from someth. Mt 24:32; Mk 13:28. (ἐπ)ἐρωτᾶν τινα τὴν παρ. ask someone the mng. of the parable Mk 7:17 (in ref. to vs. 15); cp. 4:10. Also ἐπερωτᾶν τινα περὶ τῆς παρ. 7:17 v.l.; ἐπηρώτων αὐτὸν τίς εἴη ἡ παρ. they asked him what the parable meant Lk 8:9; the answer to it: ἔστιν δὲ αὕτη ἡ παρ. but the parable means this vs. 11.—παραβολαῖς λαλεῖν τινί τι Mk 4:33. W. the gen. of that which forms the subj. of the parable ἡ παρ. τοῦ σπείραντος Mt 13:18. τῶν ζιζανίων vs. 36 (cp. ἡ περὶ τοῦ … τελώνου παρ. Orig., C. Cels. 3, 64, 11).—W. a prep.: εἶπεν διὰ παραβολῆς Lk 8:4 (Orig., C. Cels. 1, 5, 11).—χωρὶς παραβολῆς οὐδὲν ἐλάλει αὐτοῖς Mt 13:34b; Mk 4:34.—Mostly ἐν: τιθέναι τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ ἐν παραβολῇ present the Reign of God in a parable vs. 30. ἐν παραβολαῖς λαλεῖν τινι Mt 13:10, 13; Mk 12:1. ἐν παραβολαῖς λέγειν τινί Mt 22:1; Mk 3:23. λαλεῖν τινί τι ἐν παραβολαῖς Mt 13:3, 34a. διδάσκειν τινά τι ἐν παραβολαῖς Mk 4:2. ἀνοίξω ἐν παραβολαῖς τὸ στόμα μου Mt 13:35 (Ps 77:2). γίνεταί τινί τι ἐν παραβολαῖς someth. comes to someone in the form of parables Mk 4:11; cp. Lk 8:10. According to Eus. (3, 39, 11), Papias presented some unusual parables of the Savior, i.e. ascribed to Jesus: Papias (2:11).—AJülicher, Die Gleichnisreden Jesu I2 1899; II 1899 [the older lit. is given here I 203–322]; GHeinrici, RE VI 688–703, XXIII 561f; CBugge, Die Hauptparabeln Jesu 1903; PFiebig, Altjüdische Gleichnisse und d. Gleichnisse Jesu 1904, D. Gleichnisse Jesu im Lichte der rabb. Gleich. 1912, D. Erzählungsstil der Ev. 1925; LFonck, Die Parabeln des Herrn3 1909 (w. much lit. on the individual parables), The Parables of the Gospel3 1918; JKögel, BFCT XIX 6, 1915; MMeinertz, Die Gleichnisse Jesu 1916; 4th ed. ’48; HWeinel, Die Gleichnisse Jesu5 1929; RBultmann, D. Geschichte der synoptischen Tradition2 ’31, 179–222; MDibelius, D. Formgeschichte des Ev.2 33; EBuonaiuti, Le parabole di Gesù: Religio 10–13, ’34–37; WOesterly, The Gospel Parables in the Light of Their Jewish Background ’36; EWechssler, Hellas im Ev. ’36, 267–85; CDodd, The Parables of the Kgdm.3 ’36; BSmith, The Par. of the Syn. Gosp. ’37; WMichaelis, Es ging e. Sämann aus. zu säen ’38; OPiper, The Understanding of the Syn. Par.: EvQ 14, ’42, 42–53; CMasson, Les Paraboles de Marc IV ’45; JJeremias, D. Gleichn. Jesu4 ’56 (Eng. tr. ’55); ELinnemann, Jesus of the Parables, tr. JSturdy, ’66; AWeiser, D. Knechtsgleichnisse der synopt. Evv. ’71; JKingsbury, The Parables of Jesus in Mt 13, ’69; FDanker, Fresh Persp. on Mt, CTM 41, ’70, 478–90; JKingsbury, ibid. 42, ’71, 579–96; TManson, The Teaching of Jesus, ’55, 57–86; JSider, Biblica 62, ’81, 453–70 (synoptists); ECuvillier, Le concept de ΠΑΡΑΒΟΛΗ dans le second évangile ’93.
ⓑ Apart fr. the Syn. gospels, παρ. is found in our lit. freq. in Hermas (as heading: Hs 1:1; 2:1; 3:1; 4:1; 5:1; [6:1; 7:1; 8:1]) but not independently of the synoptic tradition. Hermas uses παρ. only once to designate a real illustrative (double) parable, in m 11:18. Elsewh παρ. is for Hermas an enigmatic presentation that is somet. seen in a vision, somet. expressed in words, but in any case is in need of detailed interpretation: w. gen. of content (s. a above) τοῦ πύργου about the tower Hv 3, 3, 2. τοῦ ἀγροῦ about the field Hs 5, 4, 1. τῶν ὀρέων 9, 29, 4. δηλοῦν τὴν παραβολήν 5, 4, 1a. παρ. ἐστιν ταῦτα 5, 4, 1b. ἀκούειν τὴν παραβολήν v 3, 3, 2; 3, 12, 1; Hs 5, 2, 1. παραβολὰς λαλεῖν τινι 5, 4, 2a. τὰ ῥήματα τὰ λεγόμενα διὰ παραβολῶν 5, 4, 3b; γράφειν τὰς παρ. v 5:5f; Hs 9, 1, 1; συνιέναι τὰς παρ. m 10, 1, 3. γινώσκειν Hs 5, 3, 1a; 9, 5, 5. νοεῖν m 10, 1, 4; Hs 5, 3, 1b. ἐπιλύειν τινὶ παρ. 5, 3, 1c; 5, 4, 2b; 3a. συντελεῖν 9, 29, 4. ἡ ἐπίλυσις τῆς παρ. explanation, interpretation of the parable 5, 6, 8; αἱ ἐπιλύσεις τῶν παρ. 5, 5, 1. ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ εἰς δούλου τρόπον κεῖται ἐν τῇ παρ. the Son of God appears in the parable as a slave 5, 5, 5. ἡ παρ. εἰς τοὺς δούλους τοῦ θεοῦ κεῖται the par. refers to the slaves of God 2:4.—S. also the headings to the various parts of the third division of Hermas (the Parables) and on Hermas gener. s. Jülicher, op. cit. I 204–209.—εἰ δὲ δεῖ ἡμᾶς καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν σπερμάτων μὴ ποιεῖσθαι τὴν παρ. but if we are not to draw our comparison from the (action of) the seeds AcPlCor 2:28.—BScott, Profiles of Jesus, Parables: The Fourth R 10, ’97, 3–14.—B. 1262. DELG s.v. βάλλω. M-M. EDNT. TW. Sv.
William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 759–760.​

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

How about this verse [regarding] "eternal punishment":

Matthew 25:46, "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Question: How does this prove eternal conscious torment?

 

[Diamond72]

Only the Book of Revelation speaks of a place of eternal torment.

Revelation 20:13 The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death— the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

The question is: what does this mean: "The Second Death"? Too much of the teaching of "Hell" comes from Dante's trilogy books and not actually from the Bible. There is no question that God is a God of absolute, perfect, precise Justice.

 

[Der Alte]

Question: How does this prove eternal conscious torment?

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[p. 96]​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. One cannot translate a noun as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.” NOT "death."
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is understood that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.

 

[Der Alte]

Revelation 20:13 The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death— the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
The question is: what does this mean: "The Second Death"? Too much of the teaching of "Hell" comes from Dante's trilogy books and not actually from the Bible. There is no question that God is a God of absolute, perfect, precise Justice.

The lake of fire [LOF] is called the "second death" twice in the book of Rev. Revelation 20:14 and Revelation 21:8 but it is never stated that anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they die. The only vs. which mentions what happens in the LOF is Rev 20:10

Revelation 20:10
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

Revelation 21:4
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

Vs. 4 says "no more death", vs. 5 "I make all things new"
But Vs. 8 says 8 groups of unrighteous people are thrown into the LOF. If there is no more death after vs. 4, these people do not die. They are in the LOF so they must be being tormented.
Now let's look at the last chapter.

Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​

Ten more vss. no more death, no more salvation only "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still." and the end.

 

[Diamond72]

They are in the LOF so they must be being tormented.

There are many scriptures that talk about TOTAL or complete destruction.
kalah: completion, complete destruction, consumption, annihilation
Original Word: כָּלָה
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: kalah
Phonetic Spelling: (kaw-law')
Definition: completion, complete destruction, consumption, annihilation

Revelation 14:11 talks about those that do not keep the commandments of God.

And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. Day and night there is no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12Here is a call for the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.…

If there is hellfire and brimstone then we need perseverance and we need to keep the commandments of God.

 

[ozso]

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[p. 96]​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. One cannot translate a noun as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.” NOT "death."
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is understood that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.

That archived post you repetitively use in every UR thread (which this isn't), doesn't really work with the annihilation theory. Throughout time, the death sentence has always been the most severe punishment given out. So it fits in just fine with the definition of aionios kolasis you're giving.

 

[Daniel9v9]

It doesn't rule out the OP's position though, because it takes place before judgement day and the second death.

Hell is real but it is annihilationism.

The story, as I said, is a parable. A parable is an "invented" story to illustrate a point.

I'll answer both:

(1) We shouldn't be so quick to assert that Christ's story of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable. It may be, or it may have some figurative elements that help us better understand it, or it may be historical. The fact that Lazarus is mentioned by name alongside Moses may indicate he was a real person. But even if it is a parable, the point we can draw from it is very clear: There's a separation between the just and the unjust, and there's no indication in the immediate context that this will change in any way, so it can rightly be applied to damnation. And again, even if it is a parable, what does our Lord express by it, if not two different states in the afterlife?

(2) It's true that the Scriptures make a distinction between hell before the last day and eternal condemnation. But regarding condemnation, it does not merely express it as death. It refers to damnation as:

• Shame and everlasting contempt, which is stated to be something the dead "awake" to (Daniel 12:2)
• Outer darkness and a place of gnashing of teeth (Matthew 8:12)
• A place of weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:43)
• A place where the condemned peoples' worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh. (Isaiah 66:24)
• A place of eternal torment (Revelation 14:10–11)
• Destruction of body and soul (Matthew 10:28)
• Eternal fire (Matthew 25:41)
• Eternal punishment (Matthew 25:46)
• Eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
• Eternal judgment (Hebrews 6:2)
• Judgment without mercy, which means a fixed reality (James 2:13)
• The second death, which is connected with "the lake of fire", is something we can cross-reference with Isaiah 66:24 and Matthew 13:50 (Revelation 20:14)

One of the clearest texts is Matthew 25:46, mentioned above. For in this we have a sharp contrast between "eternal punishment" and "eternal life". It's using the same word for "eternal" in both cases, and there's no indication that damnation is not eternal or that it implies annihilation.

The theory of annihilation is only possible if we cherry-pick verses. However, if we take them all together, we get the sense that damnation is a most terrible and severe state apart from God, which concurs with Jesus' parable of the wedding feast in Matthew 22.

Maybe I can also add this, that while God's Word does describe the end of the world as coming by fire (2 Peter 3:10), the fire spoken of in terms of condemnation is different, for (1) it's called eternal, and (2) it affects satan, demons, and spirits, which are incorporeal. So, by this, we can discern that the Biblical language of fire in the context of hell is something we don't know, but clearly severe and painful.

In short, the theory of annihilation is simply not Scriptural. It's a shallow view that doesn't take into account everything God's Word says about hell and condemnation, and especially in contrast with heaven and salvation. To claim that some of the descriptive terms for hell or condemnation are simply parabolic speech, whereas others aren't is not good exegesis and is frankly lazy and inconsistent.

 

[ozso]

Question: How does this prove eternal conscious torment?

I'll answer both:

(1) We shouldn't be so quick to assert that Christ's story of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable. It may be, or it may have some figurative elements that help us better understand it, or it may be historical. The fact that Lazarus is mentioned by name alongside Moses may indicate he was a real person. But even if it is a parable, the point we can draw from it is very clear: There's a separation between the just and the unjust, and there's no indication in the immediate context that this will change in any way, so it can rightly be applied to damnation. And again, even if it is a parable, what does our Lord express by it, if not two different states in the afterlife?

(2) It's true that the Scriptures make a distinction between hell before the last day and eternal condemnation. But regarding condemnation, it does not merely express it as death. It refers to damnation as:

• Shame and everlasting contempt, which is stated to be something the dead "awake" to (Daniel 12:2)
• Outer darkness and a place of gnashing of teeth (Matthew 8:12)
• A place of weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:43)
• A place where the condemned peoples' worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh. (Isaiah 66:24)
• A place of eternal torment (Revelation 14:10–11)
• Destruction of body and soul (Matthew 10:28)
• Eternal fire (Matthew 25:41)
• Eternal punishment (Matthew 25:46)
• Eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
• Eternal judgment (Hebrews 6:2)
• Judgment without mercy, which means a fixed reality (James 2:13)
• The second death, which is connected with "the lake of fire", is something we can cross-reference with Isaiah 66:24 and Matthew 13:50 (Revelation 20:14)

One of the clearest texts is Matthew 25:46, mentioned above. For in this we have a sharp contrast between "eternal punishment" and "eternal life". It's using the same word for "eternal" in both cases, and there's no indication that damnation is not eternal or that it implies annihilation.

The theory of annihilation is only possible if we cherry-pick verses. However, if we take them all together, we get the sense that damnation is a most terrible and severe state apart from God, which concurs with Jesus' parable of the wedding feast in Matthew 22.

Maybe I can also add this, that while God's Word does describe the end of the world as coming by fire (2 Peter 3:10), the fire spoken of in terms of condemnation is different, for (1) it's called eternal, and (2) it affects satan, demons, and spirits, which are incorporeal. So, by this, we can discern that the Biblical language of fire in the context of hell is something we don't know, but clearly severe and painful.

In short, the theory of annihilation is simply not Scriptural. It's a shallow view that doesn't take into account everything God's Word says about hell and condemnation, and especially in contrast with heaven and salvation. To claim that some of the descriptive terms for hell or condemnation are simply parabolic speech, whereas others aren't is not good exegesis and is frankly lazy and inconsistent.

Quite frankly outside of Revelation, I don't see those verses ruling out annihilation at the final judgment. Some even seem to support it such as Matthew 10:28. Some of the verses you used are ones that are "cherry picked" to support the theory of annihilation. While I don't necessarily believe in it myself, I do believe it can't be easily dismissed. In Matthew 25:46, you talk about the contrast to eternal life, but wouldn't that amount to the opposite of life, which is death? If a person is alive to be punished for eternity, doesn't that mean they'll be alive for eternity ie have eternal life?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I'll answer both:

(1) We shouldn't be so quick to assert that Christ's story of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable. It may be, or it may have some figurative elements that help us better understand it, or it may be historical. The fact that Lazarus is mentioned by name alongside Moses may indicate he was a real person. But even if it is a parable, the point we can draw from it is very clear: There's a separation between the just and the unjust, and there's no indication in the immediate context that this will change in any way, so it can rightly be applied to damnation. And again, even if it is a parable, what does our Lord express by it, if not two different states in the afterlife?

(2) It's true that the Scriptures make a distinction between hell before the last day and eternal condemnation. But regarding condemnation, it does not merely express it as death. It refers to damnation as:

• Shame and everlasting contempt, which is stated to be something the dead "awake" to (Daniel 12:2)
• Outer darkness and a place of gnashing of teeth (Matthew 8:12)
• A place of weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:43)
• A place where the condemned peoples' worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh. (Isaiah 66:24)
• A place of eternal torment (Revelation 14:10–11)
• Destruction of body and soul (Matthew 10:28)
• Eternal fire (Matthew 25:41)
• Eternal punishment (Matthew 25:46)
• Eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
• Eternal judgment (Hebrews 6:2)
• Judgment without mercy, which means a fixed reality (James 2:13)
• The second death, which is connected with "the lake of fire", is something we can cross-reference with Isaiah 66:24 and Matthew 13:50 (Revelation 20:14)

One of the clearest texts is Matthew 25:46, mentioned above. For in this we have a sharp contrast between "eternal punishment" and "eternal life". It's using the same word for "eternal" in both cases, and there's no indication that damnation is not eternal or that it implies annihilation.

The theory of annihilation is only possible if we cherry-pick verses. However, if we take them all together, we get the sense that damnation is a most terrible and severe state apart from God, which concurs with Jesus' parable of the wedding feast in Matthew 22.

Maybe I can also add this, that while God's Word does describe the end of the world as coming by fire (2 Peter 3:10), the fire spoken of in terms of condemnation is different, for (1) it's called eternal, and (2) it affects satan, demons, and spirits, which are incorporeal. So, by this, we can discern that the Biblical language of fire in the context of hell is something we don't know, but clearly severe and painful.

In short, the theory of annihilation is simply not Scriptural. It's a shallow view that doesn't take into account everything God's Word says about hell and condemnation, and especially in contrast with heaven and salvation. To claim that some of the descriptive terms for hell or condemnation are simply parabolic speech, whereas others aren't is not good exegesis and is frankly lazy and inconsistent.

Before anyone here goes off on another poster and insists that others are not doing "good exegesis" and are being lazy and inconsistent, I think you need to supply your Hermeneutical and/or Exegetical citations------i.e. provide a list of the scholarly sources you're drawing from by which you're making your evaluation and applying your own method of interpretation ...

I don't mean to contend with you, but I for one think some of your interpretations are all too easily assumed on behalf of ECT. Sure, they might apply on some aspects of the texts we read, but it might not apply across the board.

I also think there is some vagueness and ambiguity as to how the nature of "Hell" was understood among the New Testament writers. There may even be some diversity among the New Testament writers in their interpretations----Paul, Matthew, John, Peter, etc----which lends some credence to all of three of the positions we're contemplating today.

As far as I'm concerned, "Hell" is a BIG (?)

 

[Der Alte]

That archived post you repetitively use in every UR thread (which this isn't), doesn't really work with the annihilation theory. Throughout time, the death sentence has always been the most severe punishment given out. So it fits in just fine with the definition of aionios kolasis you're giving.

Same ol' UR arguments, I post my response. I don't need to and I don't reinvent the wheel every time. The difference is I support everything I say with scripture not supposition. Your assumption "fits in just fine" does nothing to disprove anything I posted.
IIRC Jesus mentioned death 17 times. When Jesus meant death, He said death. When Jesus said "punishment" He did not mean death and His immediate audience would NOT have understood it as death. One of the ECF, Justin, I think, said something like "It is not punishment unless they are conscious to experience it." But nice try. And OBTW the definition I give for aionios kolasis, is the same as the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible. See my "archived post" above.

 

[Der Alte]

Question: How does this prove eternal conscious torment?

Jesus said it, I believe it, that settles it. See my post #24, above.

There is no Hell (Moved)

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance comparison, figure, parable, proverb. From paraballo; a similitude ("parable"), i.e. (symbolic) fictitious narrative (of common life conveying a moral), apothegm or adage -- comparison, figure, parable, proverb. Strong's is more than a 100 years old. Here is...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Der Alte]

The well-known view of hell is that it is a place where people are tortured with full consciousness. But this view is biblically wrong and is the fatal consequence of wrong interpretation. The Bible makes it clear from the very beginning that hell is nothing other than eternal death. Eternal death means that one no longer exists and will never return to life.
Only the Book of Revelation speaks of a place of eternal torment. However, one cannot take the Book of Revelation, which is probably the most symbolic book, and ignore all other books where annihilationism is taught. The book of Revelation is full of metaphors and such passages should not be understood literally.
Jesus' words when he said, "Where the fire does not go out and their worm does not die" is also often used as evidence of eternal torment, although Jesus does not use the word torture here. However, these words of Jesus are easy to explain. What Jesus wanted to make clear with these words is that eternal death is a state that will never end.
The eternal death, or otherwise called the second death is the final punishment. The people who are thrown into the lake of fire will literally be burned into non-existence, like a piece of paper thrown into a fire. Revelation 21:8

Your explanation of death makes no sense. "Eternal death means that one no longer exists and will never return to life." Is there any other kind of death? You cited Rev 21:8 as proof of "eternal death" but Rev, 21:4 says "no more death" so how can there be "eternal death" in vs. 8?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Question: How does this prove eternal conscious torment?

I'm not saying it does. What it does say is that its eternal. How we define "kolasis " makes a difference. It can be anywhere from censure to actual physical pain. Who knows.
Blessings.

 

[Der Alte]

I'm not saying it does. What it does say is that its eternal. How we define "kolasis " makes a difference. It can be anywhere from censure to actual physical pain. Who knows.
Blessings.

See my post #24 above for the Eastern Greek Orthodox definition of "kolasis". Hint it means "punishment."

 

[Maria Billingsley]

See my post #24 above for the Eastern Greek Orthodox definition of "kolasis". Hint it means "punishment."

Yes, punishment is a generic term with a wide variety of actions.

 

[JulieB67]

I agree. When one is thrown into the LOF at the final judgement they are destroyed. It wouldn't be called the second death otherwise. It would be a second life only in torment and that's not what it states. That's eternal destruction which is eternal punishment meaning there's no coming back from that.

And no one is in the LOF at this moment. God is not going to thrown you in, pull you back out for final judgement only to be thrown back in. I think a little common sense can be applied.

The rich man I believe is on one side of the gulf which is still not the actual LOF.

But God doesn't even want that the wicked should "perish" That speaks to his very nature. So he certainly would not want to burn someone for an eternity. They will perish.

I think Christ makes it very simple in that both body and soul will be destroyed. Which is why it's called the second death.

 

[Der Alte]

Yes, punishment is a generic term with a wide variety of actions.

Perhaps they might be getting their wrists slapped for eternity. And yes, the EOB confirms that "aionios" does mean "eternal."

 

[Der Alte]

I agree. When one is thrown into the LOF at the final judgement they are destroyed. It wouldn't be called the second death otherwise. It would be a second life only in torment and that's not what it states. That's eternal destruction which is eternal punishment meaning there's no coming back from that.
And no one is in the LOF at this moment. God is not going to thrown you in, pull you back out for final judgement only to be thrown back in. I think a little common sense can be applied.
The rich man I believe is on one side of the gulf which is still not the actual LOF.
But God doesn't even want that the wicked should "perish" That speaks to his very nature. So he certainly would not want to burn someone for an eternity. They will perish.
I think Christ makes it very simple in that both body and soul will be destroyed. Which is why it's called the second death.

I have read the end of the book that ain't what it says.

Revelation 21:4-5
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.​

No more death, all things new but 4 vss. later,

Revelation 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

If there is no more death after vs. 4 then the 8 groups of sinners thrown into the LOF, vs. 8, do not die.

Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​

Ten more vss. the end, no more death, no more salvation. Only He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still.

Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.​

 

[Saint Steven]

Eternal death means that one no longer exists and will never return to life.

That would be Annihilationism. Only one of three biblical choices for the final judgment.