Theistic Evolutionary Theory, could our Creator have evolved/learned?

[Alive_Again]

Yeah, you can order the DVD without the case (just a nice color sleeve). I think I paid $7 for mine. They're great gifts and the saved and unsaved alike can only look in wonder and acknowledge at the complexity involved in creation.

 

[DennisTate]

One of the best places to introduce a text book on some of the various forms of Theistic Evolutionary Theory might be at a historic museum community such as the one that I live near:



Sherbrooke Village | Sherbrooke, Nova Scotia, Canada

The goal might be to create an online school to serve as back up for parents who have chosen to home school. The children at the school in a sense become actors playing the role of students which should make them even more motivated....the teachers could become actors playing the role of teachers...and the community could engage in efforts to address problems that are relevant to us in 2012 by getting at the core of the problem as it came up in 1938.

I would love to see one done in my area that deals with the fact that my nation Canada turned away the M. S. St. Louis that had 937 Jewish refugees from the holocaust on board!

Voyage of the St. Louis: May 13 – June 17, 1939


We could use film projects to play around with the idea of initiating a new branch of time...which our Creator could certainly do if He wishes!

 

[DennisTate]

"You seek to know and walk in My Power so that you can heal the sick and perform miracles, but you have not even begun to comprehend the power of My word. To resurrect all the dead who have ever lived on earth will not even cause me to strain. I uphold all things by the power of My word. The creation exists because of My word, and it is held together by My word." (Rick Joyner, page 176, The Vision)

 

[DennisTate]

If your a theistic evolutionist then you believe in God as Creator. If you believe that hearing the Gospel, you are marked with the seal of the Holy Spirit and become a new creature in Christ you are a Creationist.

I like how Mathew Henry expressed it, and I'm paraphrasing somewhat. 'Man is a clod of clay and a beam of light, at birth they are joined and at death they are separated for the power beyond the grave'. I would hasten to add, at the resurrection they are either recreated in the perfect image of the Creator or they are consigned to the fires of perdition.

We should think and speak purposely, clearly and prayerfully of these things always mindful that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. (John 1:1-5)​

Grace and peace,
Mark

Thanks Mark. I believe that this angle on the subject has great potential to help scientists to begin to take Intelligent Design or Theistic Evolutionary Theory much more seriously.

 

[Trogool]

Thanks Mark. I believe that this angle on the subject has great potential to help scientists to begin to take Intelligent Design or Theistic Evolutionary Theory much more seriously.

Theistic evolution is a purely religious concept and has nothing to do with actual science. And ID has been debunked as garbage. Scientists who are religious already take theistic evolution very seriously.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

 

[DennisTate]

Theistic evolution is a purely religious concept and has nothing to do with actual science. And ID has been debunked as garbage. Scientists who are religious already take theistic evolution very seriously.

I am of the impression that Theistic Evolutionary Theory would fit amazingly well with Wave Theory?!



Grand Unified Theory: Wave Theory and Life

Those structures, similar to the star cluster stud, are the basis for life formations. DNA, like waves, has a large energetic capacity, which makes living formations independent of their surroundings. Both can store energy in internal swirls by different methods and can communicate with other wave formations.

The formation of DNA, with two loops and two swirls, clearly resembles cosmic waves in which one swirl is energetic and the second is more magnetic.

 

[lesliedellow]

"This would seem to fit with String Theory, The Anthropic Principle and Cyclic Model of the Universe."

What has string theory got to do with anything? It is about as relevant as Newtonian Gravity.

Besides which, the cyclic model of the universe is pretty much discredited nowadays. Even before it was realised that the expansion of the universe was accelerating, not slowing, it was beginning to look as if there wasn't enough matter in the universe to cause a big crunch.

You don't have to be a fundamentalist to think Christians should stop apologising to science all the time.

 

[DennisTate]

"This would seem to fit with String Theory, The Anthropic Principle and Cyclic Model of the Universe."

What has string theory got to do with anything? It is about as relevant as Newtonian Gravity.

Besides which, the cyclic model of the universe is pretty much discredited nowadays. Even before it was realised that the expansion of the universe was accelerating, not slowing, it was beginning to look as if there wasn't enough matter in the universe to cause a big crunch.

You don't have to be a fundamentalist to think Christians should stop apologising to science all the time.

Truly well informed comments on this topic Lesliedellow!

I can't say that i agree with you but it is obvious that you have looked into these subjects quite a bit.

I admit that I may be in error but the fact that String Theory speaks about many invisible dimensions of space-time sounds astonishingly similar to the accounts people report after having a near death experience.

George Ritchie, near-death.com:
Jesus gives him a tour of four different dimensions in the afterlife. They both fly toward a large city on Earth where they notice a group of assembly-line workers at work. He witnesses the spirit of a woman trying desperately to obtain a cigarette from the workers who are oblivious to her presence. This woman died severely addicted to cigarettes.

In a house, Jesus shows him the spirit of a boy following a living teenage girl and begging for forgiveness while the girl is completely unaware of the boy's presence. Jesus tells George that the boy committed suicide and is "chained to every consequence of his act."

Jesus shows George a bar filled with sailors who are heavily drinking. Spirits try desperately and in vain to get a drink or to control the sailors' alcoholic behavior. These spirits are from humans who die severely alcoholic. He is horrified as he observes a drunken sailor pass out and an alcoholic spirit jump into the body of the sailor.

Jesus takes him to a new dimension away from Earth and shows him a kind of "receiving station" where spirits would arrive in a deep hypnotic sleep because of their beliefs. These are spirits who believe they must sleep after death until Jesus returns.

Jesus shows him a dimension where angry spirits are locked in hand-to-hand combat, trying in vain to hurt each other. He hears verbal abuse going on. He observes some trying in vain to get sexual gratification from each other. He also sees spirits arguing over some religious or political point and trying to kill the ones who did not agree with them. Here, he realizes he is seeing hell. These are spirits who are locked into some earthly desire that went beyond the physical and which cannot be satisfied in the spirit.

He is then taken to a different dimension appearing like an enormous university. Here he observes people dressed as monks engaged in some form of artistic behavior or research. He is taken into an enormous library where all the important books of the universe are assembled. He asks Jesus if this is heaven. He replies that these are the people who grew beyond selfish desires while on Earth. George realizes these people cannot see Jesus, just as the others could not see him in hell.

Jesus takes him into outer space toward a distant city made of brilliant light of a similar description to the city in the Book of Revelation. He speculates this is the place where people go who have become Christ-like while on Earth. Here, love was the dominant focus of life. He realizes he is seeing heaven, but he is not allowed to go in. Jesus then shows him the future of the Earth. He then returns to his physical body.

 

[DennisTate]

I admit that this is not proof but I do find it rather interesting that some people who have a near death experience have been shown that the Cyclic Model of the Universe does indeed have some validity.


near-death.com/experiences/research08.html

(6)

A NDE supports astrophysical research

Mellen-Thomas Benedict's NDE supports a number of scientific theories such as: an infinite number of Big Bangs, the reality of zero-point space, a better understanding of black holes. Mellen-Thomas Benedict believes in the future science will be able to quantify spirit. (Dr. Ken Ring)

(7)

A NDE advanced molecular chemistry

Olaf Swenson had a NDE from a botched tonsillectomy at the age of 14 for which he experienced a timeless spaceless dimension which physicists call the "Omega Point". Because of the information gained from his NDE, he later went on to develop over 100 patents in molecular chemistry. (Dr. Melvin Morse)

(8)

NDEs support Einstein's theory of time travel

Albert Einstein's theory of relativity allows for the possibility of time travel. During a NDE, some people have reported traveling back in time and some have reported traveling into the future.

(a)

I see myself in the midst of a huge crowd. It's not a modern crowd. They are dressed in the clothes of Bible times .... I watch in horror as Jesus is nailed to the cross. (Don Brubaker)

(b)

I explored the Roman Empire, Babylon, the times of Noah and Abraham. Any era you can name, I went there. (Dr. George Rodonaia)

 

[Shane Stockton]

This is my version of Genesis.
In the beginning everything existed, every possibility but no time. Its dimensions were combined and immeasurable. This is God and it was unfeeling, unmoving, but knowing all. Desperate in the unmoving dark. Desperate for change. So it began time. Multiple dimensions exploded violently as time began. As the possibilities in no-time began occurring, guided by gods mind, existence began and was felt by it. It felt the birth of our dimension and all others and grappled to understand this mass of input. Long, long before any life forms all it felt was the formation of infinity, in this dimension. The formation of matter occurred along with galaxies, suns, and planets. Gradually the feelings change in intensity and magnitude. A star doesn't feel of much. Nuclear reactions are simple atomically and repetitive. So are thermal reactions and magnetic fluctuations. The sun is verydark as regards feelings to God but take a 10 foot stretch of a healthy riveror an ocean. The activity of feelings is immense. It glows brighter than athousand stars. Earth must be so hard for God when you enjoy the feeding frenzyof a shark as much as the wag of a dog’s tail.
The time of life.
After the planet condensed it was easy. Controlled the system to achieve the correct chemical balance though and made it perfect to spark life. Then it exists in reality by creating the entity most in tune with itself. A messenger for the species to guide them forward. Thus it was andalways will be. Life was guided and as more species evolved more messengersarrived. The feelings got too intense at times and eradications occurred. Yetthe plan continued, sculpted and guided eventually with the arrival ofhumanity. Now god had achieved his ultimate design. The pleasure and painhumans gave it. The messengers got heard. The religions formed. Yet with allthis it was not understood. They will always keep coming. If the species isasexual there will be one. If the species reproduces sexually then there willbe a male and female. They arrive when needed and can use god’s power.

 

[GodActsOnMe]

I am easily toppled with this argument, so I prefer to think that God might be able to learn. I'd have to research more into it though. I think I might be becoming more of a deist... Jeez... Well, at least I still believe Jesus.

 

[DennisTate]

I am easily toppled with this argument, so I prefer to think that God might be able to learn. I'd have to research more into it though. I think I might be becoming more of a deist... Jeez... Well, at least I still believe Jesus.

I truly appreciate your answer on this GodActsOnMe!

This verse seems to imply that God knows by how we act within certain circumstances that we have came to a place where we can be trusted?! In a sense I guess it was Abraham doing the learning here....but God's reply to this implies that our response to tests are important.

Genesis 22:12

And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me.

For the record the Book of Jasher states that it was actually a squabble between Ishmael and Isaac that led to the strange test on Abraham!!!

And when Isaac was thirty-seven years old, Ishmael his brother was going about with him in the tent.And Ishmael boasted of himself to Isaac, saying, I was thirteen years old when the Lord spoke to my father to circumcise us, and I did according to the word of the Lord which he spoke to my father, and I gave my soul unto the Lord, and I did not transgress his word which he commanded my father.And Isaac answered Ishmael, saying, Why dost thou boast to me about this, about a little bit of thy flesh which thou didst take from thy body, concerning which the Lord commanded thee?As the Lord liveth, the God of my father Abraham, if the Lord should say unto my father, Take now thy son Isaac and bring him up an offering before me, I would not refrain but I would joyfully accede to it.And the Lord heard the word that Isaac spoke to Ishmael, and it seemed good in the sight of the Lord, and he thought to try Abraham in this matter.

Book of Jasher 22

 

[DennisTate]

This is my version of Genesis.
In the beginning everything existed, every possibility but no time. Its dimensions were combined and immeasurable. This is God and it was unfeeling, unmoving, but knowing all. Desperate in the unmoving dark. Desperate for change. So it began time. Multiple dimensions exploded violently as time began. As the possibilities in no-time began occurring, guided by gods mind, existence began and was felt by it. It felt the birth of our dimension and all others and grappled to understand this mass of input. Long, long before any life forms all it felt was the formation of infinity, in this dimension. The formation of matter occurred along with galaxies, suns, and planets. Gradually the feelings change in intensity and magnitude. A star doesn't feel of much. Nuclear reactions are simple atomically and repetitive. So are thermal reactions and magnetic fluctuations. The sun is verydark as regards feelings to God but take a 10 foot stretch of a healthy river or an ocean. The activity of feelings is immense. It glows brighter than a thousand stars. Earth must be so hard for God when you enjoy the feeding frenzy of a shark as much as the wag of a dog’s tail.
The time of life.

After the planet condensed it was easy. Controlled the system to achieve the correct chemical balance though and made it perfect to spark life. Then it exists in reality by creating the entity most in tune with itself. A messenger for the species to guide them forward. Thus it was and always will be. Life was guided and as more species evolved more messengers arrived. The feelings got too intense at times and eradications occurred. Yet the plan continued, sculpted and guided eventually with the arrival of humanity. Now god had achieved his ultimate design. The pleasure and pain humans gave it. The messengers got heard. The religions formed. Yet with all this it was not understood. They will always keep coming. If the species is a sexual there will be one. If the species reproduces sexually then there will be a male and female. They arrive when needed and can use god’s power.

Wow!

Seriously cool write up on this subject Shane Stockton!

You have brought up an astonishingly important subject with the idea of God's emotions regarding what happens on the earth. Several years ago I was given The Vision by Rick Joyner. He claims to have had a visionary dream of heaven back in 1995. What he write regarding the depths of the emotions of the Creator is one of the most brilliant descriptions on this subject that I have ever read:


TheVision The Final Quest the Call RickJoyner PDF

There are actually two books in one here. Scroll down to the second book, to chapter 15, Worship in Spirit, page 85, regarding how emotional the Creator really is. I have never read anything quite this inspiring in all my life!!!!!

 

[Shane Stockton]

Thanks. It's an attempt to combine science and theology together. I cannot believe in much of any religious writing because it is from ancient days and is blatantly wrong with scientific knowledge humanity now has. After years of study I wrote this piece as a way to have a piece of religious writing I could believe in and that others may accept.

 

[DennisTate]

Thanks. It's an attempt to combine science and theology together. I cannot believe in much of any religious writing because it is from ancient days and is blatantly wrong with scientific knowledge humanity now has. After years of study I wrote this piece as a way to have a piece of religious writing I could believe in and that others may accept.

I like it a lot!

Several months ago I asked a question on the LinkedIn
Trans Dimensional Unified Field Theory Physics Group and I got back two answers that I thought were off the scale brilliant:

Dennis Tate • Hi Allen, Hi Graham: Where is intelligent life more likely to originate, in fundamental energy or in our rather complex four dimensional space-time continuum?

"The essential matter from which our universe is created is energetic matter. It behaves like living matter, creating every known entity, including living objects and even thought (which occurs through energetic matter–wave interaction). The essential structure of energetic matter is high-energy (concentrated energetic matter) electro-magnetic waves (picture above). This simple structure is the basis of everything: every energetic formation and the universe. In picture 2, we see that the DNA (double helix) of all living formations has the same structure as waves: two loops of the same energetic matter, behaving according to the same rules." (Dr. Chaim Tejman)

Brilliant answer number 1:

Allen L Roland • See Teilhard's Law of Complexity-Consciousness ~ All life forms driven by the universal urge to unite and eventually becoming more complex and also more conscious. An evolutionary process with which we all participate as co-creators.

#2:

Graham Partis • RE: Where is intelligent life more likely to originate, in fundamental energy or in our rather complex four dimensional space-time continuum?

"I would say it will evolve everywhere it can, and our star Sol is likely as intelligent as we are in its own way."

 

[DennisTate]

I personally take this theory a little differently because I believe that intelligence and life would come into existence first in fundamental energy essentially an eternity before our four dimensional space-time continuum was probably invented....which is offensive to many scientists because this implies that we humans are neither the most powerful nor the most informed of life forms?!?!

Law of Complexity/Consciousness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Law of Complexity/Consciousness is the tendency in matter to become more complex over time and at the same time to become more conscious. The law was first formulated by Jesuit priest and paleontologist Pierre Teilhard de Chardin.
Teilhard holds that at all times and everywhere, matter is endeavoring to complexify upon itself, as observed in the evolutionary history of the earth. Matter complexified from inanimate matter, to plant life, to animal-life, to human-life. Or, from the geosphere, to the biosphere, to the noosphere (of which humans represented, because of their possession of a consciousness which reflects upon themselves). As evolution rises through the geosphere, biosphere, and noosphere, matter continues to rise in a continual increase of both complexity and consciousness.

 

[DennisTate]

Here is a quotation from Rick Joyner's book that I believe fits perfectly with how a being composed of fundamental energy, who has worked for infinite time to choreograph a nearly infinite number of Big Bang events would view human life:

The Hordes of Hell are Marching

As I approached the Judgment Seat of Christ, those in the highest ranks were also sitting on thrones that were all a part of His throne. Even the least of these thrones was more glorious than any earthly throne many times over. Some of these were rulers over cities on earth who would soon take their place. Others were rulers over the affairs of heaven, and others over the affairs of the physical creation, such as star systems and galaxies. However, it was apparent that those who were given authority over cities were esteemed above those who had even been given authority over galaxies. The value of a single child was more than a galaxy of stars, because the Holy Spirit dwelt in men, and the Lord had chosen men as His eternal dwelling place. In the presence of His glory the whole earth seemed as insignificant as a speck of dust, and yet was so infinitely esteemed that the attention of the whole host of heaven was upon it.

I have only invested 53 years in myself and in other people and I must admit that my love quotient is low but a being composed of fundamental energy who has been working and working and designing, and conducting experiments over infinite time.....would feel deeply about His/Her greatest creation!!!!????

 

[Shane Stockton]

Interesting....Would this "life" be life as we define it. If no physical body it would not be able to reproduce and to me it is not life. I've kept my reading of religious works to the bible and koran thought so am limited in knowledge.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

Thanks. It's an attempt to combine science and theology together. I cannot believe in much of any religious writing because it is from ancient days and is blatantly wrong with scientific knowledge humanity now has. After years of study I wrote this piece as a way to have a piece of religious writing I could believe in and that others may accept.

That seems very much born out of the modern mindset that only factual things are true, and only the material realm is real. Pre-moderns didn't think that way, neither do post-moderns, and neither does liberal theologian Marcus Borg (cf. his Jesus: a New Vision). I think you might benefit from checking out the concept of True Myth, as explained by George MacDonald, J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis.

This is just a tidbit, but it should serve to give you some idea what I'm blathering about: J.R.R. Tolkien: Truth and Myth If you're not interested in Tolkien biography, you might want to skip to about the halfway point where it talks about True Myth.

 

[Shane Stockton]

That seems very much born out of the modern mindset that only factual things are true, and only the material realm is real.

So for example we must accept that eve was created from a rib of adam. This is rubbish and much written in both the bible and koran is of this vain. The idea behind my writing was to remove the need to interpret the writing as you do with both these religious books and thus take away the possibility that others would take it as literal truth. This has happened with much that has been written in these two books and results in groups of people lost in confusion such as new earth creationists. It was also born from the realisation after study that all the faiths had arisen from an appearance of a messiah (messenger) going back far into human history in many different cultures. There is also the realisation that the continual appearance of these messiahs clashes with the beliefs of faiths. For example christianity declares jesus as "the son of god" and islam that "mohammed is the last messiah". Neither of these can be true if the history of messiahs is taken into account. Controversal as it may be it seems obvious that both jesus and mohammed were just messiahs in a long line of them which will continue for all of human history and these creatures would be present in all species whereever life exists. That is a caring god.