The Yahweh Name

TrevorL

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Greetings again Yeshua HaDeekh and Greetings Fervent,.
"I" אָנֹכִי֙ in Exodus 3:6. Ehyeh in Exodus 3:12 אֶֽהְיֶ֣ה and 3:14 אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה
Yes, I agree.
Just curious, but what are your qualifications for making such an assessment?
By relying on a number of Hebrew scholars and responding also to how these words are used in their respective contexts.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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TrevorL

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Greetings again Fervent.
How did you determine which scholars are reliable?
By what they expounded in contrast to the confusion of other expositors. I do not know if you have had a read of this thread and what has been discussed so far. I decided to have a brief review of this thread and draw attention to some of the "authorities" but I mentioned the following:
Post #1: Tyndale, RV and RSV margins. #4: AB Davidson. #39 and #42: A Hebrew Lecturer, Two Hebrew scholars and their discussion in the 143 posts thread, Rotherham's Introduction to his Bible translation, Englishman's, Expositions from 1854 and 1864. #62 381 page paper. #67 and #70 Enhanced Strongs''. #75 The JW old article (by comparison to modern JW literature). I could quote a few more that I partly rely upon, May not agree with all their theology, but agree with their endorsement of some aspects of the Yahweh Name and its meaning: JW Thirtle ans Alec Motyer, both very proficient in the Hebrew language.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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Fervent

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Greetings again Fervent.

By what they expounded in contrast to the confusion of other expositors. I do not know if you have had a read of this thread and what has been discussed so far. I decided to have a brief review of this thread and draw attention to some of the "authorities" but I mentioned the following:
What about what they expounded?

Are you proficient in Hebrew yourself? To me, it seems like an issue like this would require personal proficiency in the language to even begin to understand the issues well enough to weigh in on which scholars are reliable.
 
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TrevorL

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Greetings again Fervent.
What about what they expounded?
I have tried to present in simpler terms what they expounded and with some of my own involvement in reading, understanding and meditation of this subject.
Are you proficient in Hebrew yourself? To me, it seems like an issue like this would require personal proficiency in the language to even begin to understand the issues well enough to weigh in on which scholars are reliable.
Perhaps you have these qualifications, or have reason to rely upon other scholars. I believe that God has revealed His Name, and that someone on my level can receive this teaching. I belong to a fellowship that has discussed and expounded this subject with much the same understanding for 170 years. I was introduced to this subject in a systematic way when I was 19, 59 years ago, and I have been especially interested in this over the years. I am the Librarian for my meeting and I collect and treasure many resources for my benefit and for my meeting.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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AbbaLove

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Just curious, but what are your qualifications for making such an assessment?
Perhaps he has too much faith in so-called "scholars" as having the definitive theological answer when theologians disagree.

John 8:28 (KJV): Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.​

Should be rendered as "! Am He" ... Christ Jesus is the physical manifestation of God Incarnate (Adonai is plural) ...

John 1:1, 14
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.​
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.​
John 10:30
I and the Father are one.​

Is Jesus God? Why should I believe that Jesus is God? | GotQuestions.org ...
Christ Jesus (Lord) Is God Incarnate ... don't listen those "scholars" who can't wrap their theological mind around Spiritual Truths.
 
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TrevorL

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Greetings again AbbaLove,
Perhaps he has too much faith in so-called "scholars" as having the definitive theological answer when theologians disagree.
My progress was that I was taught in my late teens by one of my Youth Leaders and one other Youth Leader and only after this I was encouraged by various scholars who were thus endorsing what I was taught and this has been consolidated by my own studies. Where I disagree with many scholars is that we as children are taught that there is One God the Father, and that our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection. A Trinitarian would find it difficult to accept the logical outcome of what is taught in Exodus 3:14, and Exodus 3:14 is rarely his starting point and rarely referred to or quoted as an important revelation of God and the Name of God. Like you a Trinitarian quotes John 1:1,14 for starters, and has a poor and biased understanding of this.
John 8:28 (KJV): Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Should be rendered as "! Am He" ... Christ Jesus is the physical manifestation of God Incarnate (Adonai is plural) ...
Not sure if "!" is a typo, certainly not in the same area of the keyboard. I suggest that John 8:28 proves that Jesus is the Christ, a human, the Son of God, not God the Son. The meaning of "I am he" is clearly revealed in the following:
John 4:25-26 (KJV): 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
... Christ Jesus is the physical manifestation of God Incarnate (Adonai is plural) ...
I do not accept the "Incarnation". Not sure what verse(s) you are claiming about "Adonai" and what you are actually saying about this Hebrew word (your trust in "scholars"?).
John 1:1, 14 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
As stated above, a Trinitarian favourite. I consider the Word in John 1:1 to be a personification similar to the Wise Woman Wisdom in Proverbs 8.
John 10:30 I and the Father are one.
Jesus concludes his discussion by stating that he said that he is the Son of God. We share in this unity John 17:21.
Christ Jesus (Lord) Is God Incarnate ... don't listen those "scholars" who can't wrap their theological mind around Spiritual Truths.
Jesus was not born on December 25th, and I will listen to the Bible first. Your claim about "Spiritual Truths" appears to me as very hollow.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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AbbaLove

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Christ Jesus (Lord) Is God Incarnate ... don't listen those "scholars" who can't wrap their theological mind around Spiritual Truths.
Jesus was not born on December 25th, and I will listen to the Bible first. Your claim about "Spiritual Truths" appears to me as very hollow.

The Bible never claimed Jesus was born during the winter solstice (RCC heresay). More likely in the fall when the shepherds were still in the fields before the sheep were sheltered (winter). However, that article as well as many other scholars agree that Christ Jesus was/is the physical manifestsation of GOD Incarnate. Some so-called Bible scholars unfortunately don't believe that Christ Jesus is the physical manifestation of GOD Incarnate.

Is Jesus God? Why should I believe that Jesus is God? | GotQuestions.org (Christ Jesus Is the physical manifestation of GOD Incarnate)

So-called scholars the likes of JW (a cult) don't believe that Christ Jesus is the physical manifestation of GOD Incarnate.

The New Testament reveals Jesus receiving worship on many occasions. Jesus never rejected being worshipped ...
Matthew 1:23 (“Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call His name Immanuel” (which means, God with us).
Matthew 2:2 (“Where is the one who has been born King of the Jews? We saw His star when it rose and have come to worship Him.”)
Matthew 8:2
Matthew 9:18
Matthew 14:33
Matthew 15:25
Matthew 20:20
Matthew 28:17
Mark 5:6
John 1:1
John 20:28
... Thomas answered Him, "My Lord and my God."
Colossians 2:9
Hebrews 1:3
_________________________________________

Romans 1:16-17
16
For I am not ashamed of the Good News, since it is God’s powerful means of bringing salvation to everyone who keeps on trusting, to the Jew especially, but equally to the Gentile.
17 For in it is revealed how God makes people righteous in His sight; and from beginning to end it is through trust/faith — as the Tanakh puts it, “But the person who is righteous will live his life by trust.” (Habakkuk 2:4; Proverbs 3:5-6)
 
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TrevorL

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Greetings again AbbaLove,
The Bible never claimed Jesus was born during the winter solstice (RCC heresay). More likely in the fall when the shepherds were still in the fields before the sheep were sheltered (winter).
The fact that they were in the fields seems to exclude winter.
Christmas (or the incarnation and birth of Jesus) by itself is no gospel.
The article starts with two words that are part of RCC here-say. I have no objection to families getting together once a year, and some of these remember the birth of Christ. In Australia we have a public holiday, which for the last 70 years has been called the Queens' Birthday Holiday, but it was not her birthday, but an earlier King, possibly King George V. Next year we will have the same weekend in June as the "King's Birthday", but Charles' birthday is in December. We have greatly respected Queen Elizabeth and rejoice at the birth of Jesus.
(Christ Jesus Is the physical manifestation of GOD Incarnate)
So-called scholars the likes of JW (a cult) don't believe that Christ Jesus is the physical manifestation of GOD Incarnate.
The word "incarnation" has been used to suggest that somehow God the Son entered the womb of Mary for 9 months before the birth of Jesus, which to me is a misrepresentation of what is revealed in Matthew 1:20,21, Luke 1:34,35, John 1:14, Luke 2:40,52. I belong to a fellowship that you would label a cult, and using this term may make you feel empowered, but in effect what you are doing is saying that the particular posts in this thread that I have labelled "The Yahweh Name" and "The Yahweh Name (cont'd)" are "cult" teachings. You would also label how I understand the four Scriptures above as "cult teaching", but I suggest that you are dishonouring the Word of God by your "cult" label and by your erroneous understanding of these verses. I am not a JW as I do not use "Jehovah" in my posts as I consider this erroneous and I also disagree with their view that Jesus was most probably Michael the Archangel.
The New Testament reveals Jesus receiving worship on many occasions. Jesus never rejected being worshipped ...
Yes, Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and we worship and give obeisance to him. God has exalted Jesus and now given him a Name which is above every name, and when we bow before Jesus it is to the glory of the One God, God the Father Philippians 2:10-11.
Matthew 1:23 (“Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call His name Immanuel” (which means, God with us).
Yes, Jesus has the Name Immanuel, God with us, and as such he needs to be worshipped even at his birth as did the wise men and the shepherds.
Yes, Jesus is to be worshipped because he is the Son of God, not God the Son.
I have given a brief explanation of John 1:1.
John 20:28 ... Thomas answered Him, "My Lord and my God."
Please note the distinction between "LORD", Yahweh and "Lord" in Psalm 110:1, which Trinitarians usually ignore, try to blur, and try to merge, but Jesus the Son of God, David's Lord is now seated at the right hand of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father in God the Father's Throne Revelation 3:21-22.

In the OT, both Angels and Judges are called "God", Elohim, and Jesus speaks about this usage in his response to the false Jewish accusation in John 10:30-33,34-35,36. Would you like to discuss this use of Elohim for the Judges. Why are they called "Elohim"? Similar to the subject of Yahweh, Trinitarians avoid this particular usage of Elohim, the most used title of God in the OT.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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Der Alte

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Anti-Trinitarians endlessly squabble, bicker, kvetch about the words, used by Trinitarians, trying to express the nature of God, as revealed in scripture, e.g. Trinity,””triune,””person,""being,""entity,""substance,""essence,"”nature,””who," Hypostatic union," etc., etc., All words are inherently finite and imperfect, therefore these words, and/or any other words, are totally inadequate to describe God, the infinite, perfect, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent. But the fact that human words are finite, limited and imperfect does not prove or disprove anything about the doctrine of the Trinity.
…..Here yet again scriptural truths I have posted before, without any so-called “unscriptural words” or man-made doctrines.
1. There is one God! The Father is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit. Numerous vss. e.g., John 6:27, Gal 1:1, Gal 1:3, Eph 6:23, Philippians 2:11, 1 Thess 1:1, 2 Tim 1:2, Titus 1:4, 1 Peter 1:2, 2 Peter 1:17 et. al.
2. There is one God! The Son is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. Thirty six (36) scripture which address or refer to Jesus as God,

Matt 1:23, Isa 9:6, Luke 7:16, John 1:1, 3, 4, 10, 14, 18, 10:33, 5:18,8: 58, 12;24, 14:9, 17:5, 10, 20:28, Act 20:28, Rom 9:5, 2 Cor 4:4, Col 1:14-16, 2:9, Eph 3:9, Heb 1:1:2-3, 8-12, 3:3, Phi 2:6, 1 Tim 1:1, 3:16, 6:15, Tit 2;13, 2 Pet 1:1, 1 John 5:20, Rev 17:14, 19;16, 22:12-13
[1] Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
[2] Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
[3]Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.
[4] Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[5] Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[6] Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him[God created the world, Gen 1:1][/color], and the world knew him not.
[7] Joh 1:14 And the Word [acting on Himself] became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
[8] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, [μονογενὴς θεὸς ] which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
[9] John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
[10] Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. [Jewish leaders speaking]
[11] Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.[John speaking]
[12] Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am [ אהיה/ehyeh, I am, Ex 3:14].
[13] John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his [Jesus] glory, and spake of him[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 6:1ff].
Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple
[14] Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?​
[15] Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was[Jesus was aware of His existence before the world was created.].
[16] Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine[Everything that belongs to the Father belongs to Jesus]; and I am glorified in them. {Everything excluding nothing!]
[17] Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, [Jesus] My Lord and my God. [Thomas addressed Jesus as God and Jesus praised him.]
[18] Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
[19] Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever[Jesus called God]. Amen.
[20] 2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
[21] Col 1:14 In whom [Christ vs. 8] we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and for him:
[22] Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
[23] Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
[24] Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
[25] Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever[God calls the Son, God]: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
[26] Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
[27] Phi 2:6 Who, being [existing] in the form of God, thought it not something to be used to His advantage the being equal with God:
[28] 1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh[Jesus called God], is justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
[29] 1 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ[Jesus called God], which is our hope;
[30] 1 Tim 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;[The lamb is king of kings, Rev 17:14, Jesus is king of kings, Rev 19:16, God is Lord of Lords Deu 10:17]
[31] Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God];
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
[32] 2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God]:
[33] 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life[Jesus called God].
[34] Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings[יהוה/YHWH, Deu 10:17]: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
[35] Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS[יהוה/YHWH, Deu 10:17].
[36] Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 40:10].
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 44:6]





 
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TrevorL

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Greetings again Der Alte,
Anti-Trinitarians endlessly squabble, bicker, kvetch about the words, used by Trinitarians, trying to express the nature of God, as revealed in scripture
I appreciate the comprehensive list of passages and brief comments and I could turn this thread into a discussion of every passage that you listed, but I do not want to spend that much time. There are a few passages that I have a special interest in, and I may discuss these. What you have failed to do is address properly my posts of "The Yahweh Name" and in a sense your list is saying "here is an alternative - we believe in the Trinity, not the Yahweh Name theme as I have presented". I will address Isaiah 6:1 and possibly John 8:58 after that, then John 10:30. If you would like to start by expanding your thoughts on these three, then I will respond, or start on my own in the next few days. What I find as remarkable is that the equivalent of the Yahweh Name in the NT is that the NT reveals the One God as the Father Matthew 6:9, and Jesus as The Son of God, a concept that can be understood in its beauty and strength in every language in the world without learning one word of Hebrew.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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Der Alte

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* * * The fact that they were in the fields seems to exclude winter.
* * *
Trevor
Meanwhile I will address this one comment in your post.
Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah p. 611
That the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem,949 was a settled conviction. Equally so was the belief, that
He was to be revealed from Migdal Eder, ‘the tower of the flock.’950 This Migdal Eder was not the
watchtower for the ordinary flocks which pastured on the barren sheepground beyond Bethlehem,
but lay close to the town, on the road to Jerusalem. A passage in the Mishnah951 leads to the
conclusion, that the flocks, which pastured there, were destined for Temple-sacrifices,952 and,
accordingly, that the shepherds, who watched over them, were not ordinary shepherds. The latter
were under the ban of Rabbinism,953 on account of their necessary isolation from religious ordinances,
and their manner of life, which rendered strict legal observance unlikely, if not absolutely impossible.
The same Mishnic passage also leads us to infer, that these flocks lay out all the year round, since
they are spoken of as in the fields thirty days before the Passover - that is, in the month of February,
when in Palestine the average rainfall is nearly greatest.954 Thus, Jewish tradition in some dim
manner apprehended the first revelation of the Messiah from that Migdal Eder, where shepherds
watched the Temple-flocks all the year round. Of the deep symbolic significance of such a
coincidence, it is needless to speak.
It was, then, on that ‘wintry night’ of the 25th of December,955 that shepherds watched the
flocks destined for sacrificial services, in the very place consecrated by tradition as that where the
Messiah was to be first revealed.​
 
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TrevorL

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Greetings again Der Alte,
Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah p. 611
That the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem was a settled conviction.
It was, then, on that ‘wintry night’ of the 25th of December,955 that shepherds watched the flocks
I do not consider that Alfred Edersheim, writing in 1883 is an authority as to exactly what day Jesus was born. I am not sure if you want to engage in discussing some of the verses that I mentioned, but in the meantime a few comments.
[8] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, [μονογενὴς θεὸς ] which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 1:18 (KJV): No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
It is obvious that one or the other translation is incorrect. Can a God or God or God the Son be begotten? How do you understand "begotten" in John 1:14, John 3:16?
1. There is one God! The Father is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit. Numerous vss. e.g., John 6:27, Gal 1:1, Gal 1:3, Eph 6:23, Philippians 2:11, 1 Thess 1:1, 2 Tim 1:2, Titus 1:4, 1 Peter 1:2, 2 Peter 1:17 et. al.
In most of these references the phrase "God the Father" is used. We never encounter with these God the Father, God the Son and I suggest that ALL of these references are stating that there is One God, and that this One God is God the Father and God the Father is distinct from our Lord Jesus Christ who is a human, the Son of God..

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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Der Alte

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Greetings again Der Alte,
I do not consider that Alfred Edersheim, writing in 1883 is an authority as to exactly what day Jesus was born. I am not sure if you want to engage in discussing some of the verses that I mentioned, but in the meantime a few comments.
John 1:18 (KJV): No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
It is obvious that one or the other translation is incorrect. Can a God or God or God the Son be begotten? How do you understand "begotten" in John 1:14, John 3:16?
In most of these references the phrase "God the Father" is used. We never encounter with these God the Father, God the Son and I suggest that ALL of these references are stating that there is One God, and that this One God is God the Father and God the Father is distinct from our Lord Jesus Christ who is a human, the Son of God..
Kind regards
Trevor
You should read Edersheim's sources. His book is available free online. Or at least it was a decade or 2 ago.
Many scholars now believe that "monognenes" does not mean begotten. See e.g. NIV.

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and f is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
The New International Version (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2011), Jn 1:18.
I don't think I would go around telling God what He can and can't do.
Link to Edersheim Life and Times of Jesus


 
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TrevorL

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Greetings again Der Alte,
You should read Edersheim's sources. His book is available free online. Or at least it was a decade or 2 ago.
I have a print version of Edition 6 of the two volumes, but the disadvantage of a print book is that you cannot search as in a pdf file. My page numbers did not correspond to your page 611, I suppose Volume 1. Some of our speakers (I belong to a lay fellowship) occasionally refer to Edersheim. My reading schedule is already overburdened.
Many scholars now believe that "monognenes" does not mean begotten.
Maybe they are trying to avoid the obvious that God the Father was the father of Jesus, and Mary his mother in the conception/birth process. I am not willing to argue about Greek except to say the KJV of Matthew 1:1-16 has "begat" throughout, and I doubt anyone would have difficulty in understanding this:
Matthew 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. 2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;

I find no difficulty with the description of the conception of Jesus, and please note the marginal note:
Matthew 1:18–21 (KJV): 18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived (Gr. begotten) in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

A few brief comments on the three passages. I consider that Isaiah 6:1 is a future vision of Jesus seated on the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem during his 1000 year reign of the Kingdom of God upon the earth. As such Isaiah 6:1 is parallel with Isaiah 2:1-4. I have most probably already commented on John 8:58 and John 10:30. I prefer "I am he" as the correct translation, the same as John 8:24,28. All of John 10:30-36 needs to be considered and the similar language and concept in John 17:21.
And I don't think I would go around telling God what He can and can't do.
I have encountered similar sentiments to explain obvious contradictions and impossibilities. I like a few of the assessments in the book History of the Dogma of the Deity of Christ by A Reville 1904 (from translation 1905), Professor of the History of Religion at the College of France.

Page 4: The maxim of Vincent de Leyrins, more boastful than true, ‘the Church, when it employs new terms, never says anything new’, influenced the entire history of Christianity; philosophers and submissive believers were equally satisfied with it.

Page 10: … the religious sentiment … is not in the least alarmed at contradictions; on the contrary, there are times when it might be said that it seeks and delights in them. They seem to strengthen the impression of mystery, an attitude which belongs to every object of adoration.

Speaking of the developments in the second century:
Page 54: … the ‘celestial being’ increasingly supplanted the human being, except among the Jewish-Christians of the primitive type … These firmly maintained the opinion that Jesus was a man, … fully inspired by God … admitted his miraculous conception.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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AbbaLove

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Guys we can agree to disagree ... that's why this CF forum is "controversial". Would Herod have conducted a census during the winter soltice. More likely Immanuel's birth was associated with one of the fall Feasts of the Lord.

I'll side with Thomas ... "My Lord and my God!". Those that choose to disagree will say it's a mistranslation. Like too many scholars with theology degrees they don't believe certain scriptures that they can't wrap their mind around.

Yeshuah Ha'Mashiach (Jesus The Christ) is the physical manifestation of Father GOD.

John 1:1,14
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 20:27-28
27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”
28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!

As for me i'd much rather believe the Word of God (Chrst Jesus - John 1:1,14) over that of a theologian that tries to explain it away because he can't wrap his mind around a Spiritual Truth. Better to believe the Word ... as did Thomas than a theologian.
 
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Der Alte

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Guys we can agree to disagree ... that's why this CF forum is "controversial". Would Herod have conducted a census during the winter soltice. More likely Immanuel's birth was associated with one of the fall Feasts of the Lord.

I'll side with Thomas ... "My Lord and my God". Those that choose to disagree will say it's a mistranslation. Like too many scholars with theology degrees they don't believe it the following that they can't wrap their mind around.

Yeshuah Ha'Mashaich (Jesus The Christ) is the physical manifestation of Father GOD.

John 1:1,14
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 20:27-28
27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”
28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!

As for me i would rather believe the Word of God (Chrst Jesus - John 1:1,14) over that of a theologian that trys to explain it away because he can't wrap his mind around the Truth. Better to believe the Word ... as did Thomas.
Please see my post #90 this thread. I cite 36 vss. which refer to or call Jesus God.
 
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AbbaLove

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I like a few of the assessments in the book History of the Dogma of the Deity of Christ by A Reville 1904 (from translation 1905), Professor of the History of Religion at the College of France.
Better to spend considerably less time, if any, reading what professors of the history of religion and what theologians agree and disagree about. Instead allow His Spirit to teach you. Quoting professsors of religion and theologians is a waste of time. What is so obvious eludes many who have their ears tickled by the academia of theologians and professors who for all we know have no special supernatural anointing.

1John 2:27
The anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you don’t need anyone to teach you. Instead, His anointing teaches you about all things and is true and is not a lie; just as He has taught you, remain in Him.

Since when did the anointing of His Spirit and His supernatural Gifts cease among Believers? Unfortunately some so-called Believers (cessaionists) now have to decide which professor or theologian is the most believeable. Thus the reason for a CF forum "Controversial Christian Theology" and upteen different Christian denominations.
 
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TrevorL

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Greetings again Abbalove,
I'll side with Thomas ... "My Lord and my God!". Those that choose to disagree will say it's a mistranslation. Like too many scholars with theology degrees they don't believe certain scriptures that they can't wrap their mind around.
Yes, I will side with Thomas also, but I disagree with your conclusion, as the Hebrew word Elohim, usually translated God in the OT is also used for the Angels and the Judges, and here applied to Jesus. Refer to Jesus' reference to this application of Elohim in John 10:30-33,34,35-36. Immediately after John 20:28 John summarises his purpose in writing, to show that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God John 20:30,31.
Since when did the anointing of His Spirit and His supernatural Gifts cease among Believers? Unfortunately some so-called Believers (cessaionists) now have to decide which professor or theologian is the most believeable. Thus the reason for a CF forum "Controversial Christian Theology" and upteen different Christian denominations.
Interesting comment, but it seems that you are saying that the Trinity is correct because you have the Holy Spirit and thus I am in error.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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Der Alte

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Greetings again Abbalove,
Yes, I will side with Thomas also, but I disagree with your conclusion, as the Hebrew word Elohim, usually translated God in the OT is also used for the Angels and the Judges, and here applied to Jesus. Refer to Jesus' reference to this application of Elohim in John 10:30-33,34,35-36. Immediately after John 20:28 John summarises his purpose in writing, to show that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God John 20:30,31.
Interesting comment, but it seems that you are saying that the Trinity is correct because you have the Holy Spirit and thus I am in error.
Kind regards
Trevor
This is a very weak cop out and does not work with John 20:28 because Thomas was not quoting an OT vs. which uses elohim. Thomas was not saying "my Lord and judge" or "my lord and angel." John's purpose and what he later wrote does not have any bearing on what Thomas said in vs. 28.
 
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