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The White Horse (Rev. 6)

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Poiema, Jul 22, 2003.

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  1. Palatka44

    Palatka44 Unabashedly Baptist

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    Amen! Thank you for the reply for you have summed up in few words what took me several replies to get accross. May your day be guided by the light of God's Holy Word.
     
  2. Poiema

    Poiema New Member

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    I agree that this is symbolic of literal events (whether spiritual or physical), no problem there. And history certainly plays a role in prophecy. My point is that Scriptural interpretation comes First. We have to be careful not to set the verse in a certain context of history then make that verse fit. Instead, we need to understand the verse First Then apply it to history.
    All I'm saying is that a word sudy in Revelation of the word White reveles that White Always refers to Christ, His People, or something to do with Christ. God has been careful about such things for a reason and would not suddenly change that color to mean something less than what it is. IF the white horse were Constantine, the word White would be clarified so as not to confuse the reader or sully the symbolism. It would read something to the effect of, "A horse that appeared white" or "seemed white." Word studies are very important. I am planning a Bible-wide word study on the word White and would be surprised to find if the color is Ever applied to something evil or decietful.

    We should also remember that the crown is not a "diadem" (ruler's crown) as would be applied to Constatine but is a "stephanos" ...a crown of victory, which is more easily and accurately applied to the Church and goes hand-in-hand with the bow (symbol for divine victory). I plan to word study "stephanos" as well, and would be surprised to find it has anything o do with rulers or conquerors.
     
  3. jayswife29

    jayswife29 Member

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    cbk, as I said, I know that the antichrist will make his "debut"before the mid-point of the tribulation, but to me a peace treaty and covenant could be two different things. Our govornment is trying to make this road-map to peace in the middle east work, I dont believe it will until someone "confirms" it. Meaning, it could very well be an old treaty that will be strengthened(confirmed)by a leader(antichrist). Last night I was watching a news program from the middle-east, and they say that 84% of the jews would be willing to move out of Jerusalem to ensure peace between them (Israel) and palestine. As long as the reward for them (Israel) would be fitting, well that got me wondering about the temple.Maybe, just maybe the treaty will be strengthened by giving everyone over there what they want.In Daniel9:27, it says "And he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week. I think that means that the jews will be able to build their temple, because in daniel it goes on to say that in the middle of the 70th week the antichrist will break his covenant and sit himself in the temple demanding to be worshiped. I also believe that Revelation is telling us what will happen during the tribulation, and since the tribulation only lasts for seven years, I dont see how anything in that book has already been ful-filled, unless of course the tribulation has happened already and I didnt know it!!
     
  4. Palatka44

    Palatka44 Unabashedly Baptist

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    Poieme, while you are doing a word search reference on the word white, make sure that you coinside that search with light.
     
  5. Wills

    Wills Member

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    The rider on the white horse is not described himself-- that is , HE IS NOT CLOTHED IN WHITE LINEN.

    In my opnion, and I think this is scripturally supported, THE HORSE'S COLOR should not be misunderstood and in fact the color of the horse is not as symbolic as a human's clothing color. White linen USE FOR CHRIST or a white appearance of a human form (TRANSFIGURATION) or angel conveys a different meaning as compared to the white horse especially since A NUMBER OF HORSES WERE specified.

    THE HORSE should not convey anything very close to Godliness else it would have been written differently. We DO NOT FOCUS on horses per say, but Humans.

    When the white dove alighted on Christ, it was just one white dove and was directly tied to Christ. What we have here is A SET OF HORSES and I think that is very significant. Anything involving God and Christ is distinguishable on ITS OWN, not with a group of other colored beings or horses as though they have similar traits with differences in actions.

    Think carefully about this, that is a white horse in a sequence of other horses. This is different from cases of white transfiguration of Christ, Christ clothed in white linen of purity etc

    To me, the white horse being listed with other horses of death, famine etc, should not be misunderstood.
     
  6. cbk

    cbk Guest

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    good point
     
  7. Poiema

    Poiema New Member

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    Why? They do not necessarily go hand in hand and the word "light" has nothing to do with these verses. :scratch:
    (and yes, Iknow where you are going with this lol)
     
  8. Poiema

    Poiema New Member

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    This makes little sense to me. NONE of the riders is described as wearing anything yet we readily consider the color of those other three horses. Why should we not consider the color of this horse? We cannot accpet three and toss one out because we don't want to deal with it, can we?
    Also this horse is not listed with the other horses. In fact, none are listed together. Each is introduced seperately as each of the first four seals are broken.
     
  9. Wills

    Wills Member

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    You may have misunderstood me. Why do you wrongly assume that one is being tossed out. I spent more time on the white horse than the other colors hence your statement is incorrect. I hardly spoke about the other colors at all. Those other colors merely signify their purposes, war, famine etc.

    It is right to group the horses under the seals, we HAVE 4 HORSES... and they are clearly placed under the chapter of the seals...one after the other and WITH different functions. They are not identical obviously.

    I made points about Christ's description and clothing for the benefit of those that may assign some non human deity to the rider... may not apply to you.

    First and foremost, there is a strong possibility that this horse represents a purpose connected with the Church.

    Christ conquered death and gave authority to his disciples and believers to start the Church on Earth. Conquer in this regard, is not to conquer and rule materially (initially at least) but to overpower sin and Satan and win souls.... Read Christ talking about his authority in overpowering

    Satan Matthew 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man?

    and when He sent out his 70 followers who went out casting demons and healing the sick. " I saw Satan falling from heaven"

    Christ conquered and instructs us to do the same over sin - with rewards.

    Revelation 3:21
    'He who conquers, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also conquered and sat down with My Father on His throne.

    Now the authority was given in the Gospel age and to those who would conquer, Christ would reward them at the appropriate time.

    NOW THE BIG QUESTION.... Was the Church Christlike? The evidence is out there the intent was true and was from Christ thus the color of the white horse but humans corrupted the Church and as far as whether the conquering was Christlike, the jury is out on that one.

    FIRST POINT--- the horse is white, BUT THE HUMAN IS NOT really described much which makes sense for the Christian church spanned many centuries and millions of people hence the human is just a symbol of the Humans in the gospel age

    You see, A HORSE IS A symbolic CARRIER OF A HUMAN EFFECT --- the humans actually give the output in the formation of the church and its activities- hope you understand my view on this.

    The points regarding Christ and his clothing etc was addressed to those who may associate the rider with Christ [you may not associate Christ with the rider -directly anyway, hence this would not be addressed to you]
    I merely clarified the nature of Christ's appearances and THE DEFINITE FOCUS ON HIS CLOTH COLOR etc just to identify that this rider is not described at all as compared to how Christ is always clearly and intensely described... Revelation 1:14-16, Daniel 10:5-6 linen, Uphaz-gold, etc Revelation 19:11-15

    This rider in Revelation 6:2 is anonymous in description [SAME AS THE OTHERS] except for the bow. which again is a result of Christ's victory and is thus derived from Christ.
     
  10. Palatka44

    Palatka44 Unabashedly Baptist

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    :idea:
    While your questions of late have been in regards to light and its relationship to The Church, you also mentioned a question about the crown that the rider of the white horse wears.
    Well if you'll please note that in Revelation, John is told by our Lord to write to the (7) Churches of Asia, Rev. 1:11
    11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
    It is made clear from the getgo that when the church is mentioned while she remains on earth she does not wear a crown but is carring a candle stick.
    12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
    13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
    The seven stars are the angels that are in charge of The Church and when these are mentioned they always relate to The Church.
    16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
    19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
    20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
    The Church does not ride a horse of any color in any book of God's Holy Word. She carries a light or Candlestick, and is not wearing a crown for she has yet to obtain her glory.
    As we have discused earlier the rider of the white horse in Rev 6:2 is not only a counterfit Christ he is also a counterfit church. There is a counterfit church at the return of Our Lord. I refer you to Matt chapter 25.
    1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
    2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
    3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
    4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
    5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
    6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
    7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
    8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
    9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
    10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
    11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
    12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
    13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
    The rider carries,not a lamp but a bow (the weapon that was given Constantine) with which he uses to subdue his masses. His masses (the 5 foolish virgins) think they have oil (the Holy Spirit) and when the time comes to trim their lamps they are shocked to find that there is no light in what they have believed in since their infantile baptisim.
    There is no crown (diadem or other wise) or white appearel given to The Church until she is removed from this world. Rev 6:11.
    9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
    10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
    11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
    And Rev 19:1-10
    1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
    2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
    3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
    4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
    5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
    6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
    7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
    8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
    9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
    10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
    Paul tells us that we will obtain our crown in 1Corinthians 9:25
    25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
    He continues to write in 1Timothy 4:8
    8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. :holy:
    James write in chapter 1;
    12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
    Peter writes in 1 Peter 5:4;
    4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
    Rev 2:10 says this;
    10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. :clap:
    11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. :bow:

    I hope that I've now explained my position in the context of scripture to you satisfaction.
     
  11. Poiema

    Poiema New Member

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    You are right, I did misunderstand. Mea Culpa.
    Hmmm ... I really shouldn't post at all when I've been 48 hrs without sleep LOL. :sorry:
     
  12. Poiema

    Poiema New Member

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    Actually, I haven't said a thing about the word "Light" at all. I was talking about the word "White" in the verses concerning the Whiute horse. I'm sorry if you misunderstood.


    <whew> I can't take the time to respond to each verse (I did read the whole thing) but no,you were not in context on a few occassions. Scripturally, the bow is a symbol of Christ's divine victory. And the crown, a stephanos of victory, is upon the rider. Constatine would not have had such a crown.
    As for the first few chaprters that speak of the churches, are you saying that the church can Only be described as a candle or lampstand? I know the answer, since you yourself have pointed out that she is also called a virgin. Why then, can she not be the white horse in Ch.6? The visions are seperate and do not necessarily have to use candle or lampstand. I personally, do not have a problem with the idea that the Chuirch is victorioius. Yes, we suffer, but we are and will be victorious. We may not receive an actual crown until we are with our Lord, but this is symbolism, and we wear the crown spiritually now because we are already victors in Christ and more than conquerors.

    Before this goes any further, I want you to know that I am not irritated in the least. Often, communicating via computer can leave holes in conversation that would, in speech, be filled in with inflection, body language, and facial expression.

    My purpose for posting here was not to gain converts to what I believe. It was to see how others believe and see if they could Biblically prove me wrong. NOT that I think I am "so right" but I sincerely with to be in accordance with the Bible in my beliefs. I have been swayed from erroneous beliefs to the right many times as people have shown me where I am Scripturally errant. Basically that is what I am looking for ... a chance to prove or disprove Myself and My belief,not others'. I hope that explains a little clearer why I posted in the first place. I was a little concerned that you were getting edgy and defensive (though maybe I'm misreadiing some of those communication gaps :) ) and wanted top clarify that I am not here to attack but to gain insight. SAnd I do appreciate your posts. I've had to take out my Bible and Strong's a lot and am enjoying the discussion.
    :pink:
     
  13. Palatka44

    Palatka44 Unabashedly Baptist

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    Oh please don't think such. I'm having too much fun :clap: this is great, this is wonderful, don't let up, we are gleaning from God's Holy Word and from each other.
     
  14. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran

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    Hi

    So who is it who gives revelation. Jesus right,

    So why not let Jesus tell us what this all means.

    The most important thing to understand is that it is Jesus who is revealing this information about the future.

    Rev 5:3 But no one in Heaven or on Earth or beneath the Earth could open the scroll or even look inside it.

    Rev 5:5 Do not weep the lion of the tribe of Judea the root of David has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.

    Rev:5:6 Then I saw a Lamb that looked as if it had been slain standing in the centre of the throne.

    Rev:6:1 I watched as the Lamb open the first of the seven seals.


    Do not believe the many varied Human Interpretations of Revelation it is Jesus alone who can explain the symbols of Revelation and the events of the future.

    Also in these verses we have the explanation of our first symbol, the Lamb and what it represents. It is Jesus.

    Does Jesus tell us of the events of the future else where in scripture?

    Yes he does in Matthew 24: In great detail without symbols.

    1: And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2: And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3: And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age.

    While his Disciples thought the destruction of the Temple would be the end of the world we know that was not the case. So in fact his disciples have asked him two separate questions.

    1. When would the destruction of the Temple be?
    2. What will be the signs of your coming?

    Jesus answers the first question.

    4And Jesus answered them, "Take heed that no one leads you astray.5For many will come in my name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and they will lead many astray. 6And you will hear of wars and rumours of wars; see that you are not alarmed; for this must take place, but the end is not yet.

    Here we have a clear end to the first question and Jesus tells them that the destruction of the temple would come before the end of the age.

    Jesus now answers the next question Second question, What will be the signs of your coming?

    7For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places: 8all this is but the beginning of the birth-pangs. 9"Then they will deliver you up to tribulation, and put you to death; and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. 10And then many will fall away, and betray one another, and hate one another. 11And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12And because wickedness is multiplied, most men's love will grow cold.13But he who endures to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, as a testimony to all nations; and then the end will come.

    How does this compare with the future Jesus reveals in Revelation? Let’s compare and see

    Rev 6:1: And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. 2: And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
    Jesus is depicted as coming on a white horse in Rev 19:11 however he has many crowns not one and he has a sword that comes out of his mouth not a bow in his hand. What does this Symbol mean. Is it the Catholic Church as the Catholics claim symbolising Righteousness. Or is it one of the many other fancy Human explanation of this symbol. Let us not forget it is Jesus alone who reveals, Jesus alone who knows the future.


    In Matthew 24 Jesus says the first thing that will take place after his death is False Christianity followed by the destruction of the Temple.

    Matt 24:-4: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
    5: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.


    So the white horse Jesus tells us represents False Christianity.

    Rev 6:-3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. 4: And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

    This Horse is Red and takes peace from the Earth does this agree with what Jesus said would happen next.
    Matt 24:7: For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

    I would have to say we have a match let’s continue.

    Rev 6:-5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. 6: And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a days wages, and three measures of barley for a days wages; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.7: And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. 8: And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

    These two horses seem to be quite obvious in there meaning. It is agreed by most Bible scholars to represent famine and death due to rising prices and lack of availability of food most likely brought on by the raging wars of Nation against Nation.. It should also be noted that these wars and famine and disease only affect a fourth of the world, not the whole world.

    Does this agree with what Jesus says comes next in Matt 24:

    7 and there shall be famines, and pestilence, and earthquakes, in divers places.8: All these are the beginning of sorrows.

    Once again we seem to have a match.

    Who are these Nations and Kingdoms that are at war?

    Since we know from the division of Jesus' answer to the disciples, that this is after the fall of Judea in 70AD. We know that one of these Nations or Kingdoms is Rome. These verses speak of the disintegration and fall of the Roman Empire and the ensuing natural disasters, famine and disease that would bring death and the Dark ages.

    Let’s continue on in Revelation

    Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11: And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

    What does Jesus say happens next in Matt24:

    Matt 24:9: Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and you shall be hated in all nations because of me.

    Once again we have a match

    Here Jesus moves through the main events that will lead to his return many hundreds of years in the future. Revelation clearly shows in these passages that this is the Fall of Rome, as the Saints killed by the Pagans are told to wait until more that speak their same testimony, are to be killed.

    Now go back to Revelation 6:9 where Jesus describes the saints and their testimony in more detail. Here is depicted the souls of all who have been killed because of the word of God and their testimony they had maintained. What is the word of God? Is it the Old Testament, is it the New Testament? Who are these souls that are given white robes to wear? And who martyred them? And when? And what was their testimony?

    Lets examine what Jesus tells us else where in Revelation to find the explanation of these symbols.

    First notice that the saints are told that there are others who were yet to be killed for the word of God and their testimony, as they had been. We find these others in Revelation 7:

    9: After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindred, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

    Here comes Jesus' explanation Rev7:13

    13: And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these, which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14: And I said unto him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.15: Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple

    Two things are clear here, first that this is taking place after the First Resurrection because unlike the first group of souls killed for the word of God and their testimony under the alter in Rev6:9, these souls are before the throne of God, in the Kingdom of God, they have been killed in the Great Tribulation and have been risen for the wedding feast. The other thing that is clear is that these people are from every Tribe, Nation, and Tongue, they are not just from the Twelve Tribes of Israel.

    This persecution is described in Rev12

    17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    It continues in Rev 13:

    7: And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all Tribes, and nations and tongues,. 8: And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9: If any man have an ear, let him hear.10:If anyone is to go into captivity into captivity he shall go: If anyone is to be killed with the sword with the sword he must be killed. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

    Here we are told something else about these people. They are the Saints and they will be killed.
    Rev 14 tells us more about these people

    12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints: those that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

    We are also told that their Testimony is the Testimony of Jesus Christ. We are told that the Testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy in Rev 19:

    10: And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, do not do it: I am but a fellows servant, with your brothers that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

    Now we know what their testimony was, it is was prophecy, this provides us with a keen insight into what these people of the great tribulation are killed for it is for their understanding of prophecy and for keeping the Ten Commandments (ie: the word of God)

    Once again Jesus has explained in full his own symbols. Next Jesus gives us a very important look inside mainstream Christianity at this time.

    Matt24:10 At that time many shall turn away from the faith, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11: And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12: And because wickedness multiplies, the love of most shall go cold.

    Jesus plainly tells us that at the time of the decay of Rome and the persecution by the Pagans, Christians will start to fight amongst themselves and will HATE one another and that the Love and Patience that Christians are known for will turn cold. Although Jesus does not give us a date we can look in history for the change in the church that Jesus describes. History shows that the 4th century CA 302 -395 these events begin to unfold in the Church. The various Latin and Greek factions using the Power of Imperial favour to instigate wars and persecutions against the others believers. The process started with Constantine 325AD and continued for almost 200yrs. With the two sides gaining and losing control over the doctrine taught with successive wars that left hundreds of thousands dead. The next verse again confirms that the saints lose their lives but gain eternal life.

    13: But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14: And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

    What is this Gospel that is preached to the whole world? Is it the Gospel that is taught today the gospel of Jesus’ life? It is hard to see Jesus saying "this Gospel" meaning the Gospel of his life and deeds. Jesus meant the Gospel that he Taught. What does scripture tell us about his Gospel?

    Matthew4:17: From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the Kingdom of God is at hand.

    Matthew 10:7 And as you go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of God is at hand.

    Matthew 13:18: Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.19 When any one hears the message of the kingdom.

    Matthew 13:24 : Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field

    Matthew 13:31:Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:


    This continues on in verse 44, 45, 47, then again in chapter 20:1, 21:43, 22:2

    It is quite clear that Jesus’ Gospel was that the Kingdom of God was at hand, and was unfolding just as the prophets had said it would.

    Jesus then goes on to tells us that this is the time of the Great Persecution and to describe in more detail the events of the Great Persecution. He tells us that people will say that Jesus has returned and is in the inner rooms, that prophecy is finally fulfilled. Now we see why Peter tells us to pay attention to prophecy in 2Peter 2:19 and the importance of the Prophetic word. I can not stress how important understanding prophecy is.
     
  15. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran

    +66
    Non-Denom
    Part 2

    Most churches ignore prophecy as impossible to understand. It is only impossible to understand if you refuse to except the word as it is. Centuries of erroneous teachings have hardened their hearts to the obvious truth. Since we know what the testimony of the Saints is, Prophecy, and we know that the Saints, the ones in white robes, are killed in the Great Tribulation for their keeping the ten commandments and their testimony about prophecy. Here Jesus tells us that those who are killed in the Great Tribulation are killed for refusing to believe the Anti-Christ is Jesus returned, they refuse to believe this false interpretation of prophetic scripture, which the Anti-Christ uses to convince the world that he is Christ returned. We are also told that unless God intervenes that all flesh on Earth would die, but for the Elect sake those days will be shortened. Here the saints are called the elect. Once again we know that this does not mean the Jewish people as many Christian scholars teach, because these people who come through the Great Tribulation, who wear the white robes are from every Tribe, Nation, and Tongue.

    Matt 24:15 "So when you see the desolating sacrilege spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

    21: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22: And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23: Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24: For there shall arise false Christ's, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; in so much that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25: Behold, I have told you before. 26: Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the inner chambers; believe it not.27: For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


    Jesus goes on to talk about the signs after the great tribulation. Revelation 6 continues

    12: And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13: And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14: And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15: And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16: And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    This matches perfectly with what Jesus say in Matthew 24:

    29: Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:30: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    As we can plainly see from this text that Jesus has now returned to Earth to set up his Kingdom. He has finished answering the second question of the Apostles. We are also told that the generation that see the great persecution will not pass away before Jesus returns in his Glory.

    This is what Jesus tells us the future will be, it is sure and can be trusted. Unlike the interpretations of men the word of God is sound. We do not need to guess what or who the four horsemen men are, Jesus tell us in very plain language all the events leading up to his return. Many churches teach that all these events happened in the first century AD, when Rome destroyed Jerusalem. I believe scripture has clearly shown us that this is not the truth. And that the words of God in Amos 3: are true. God has revealed all major events of history, into the future through Jesus' return, in advance as promised.

    Just The Facts
     
  16. CK Blue

    CK Blue New Member

    32
    +1
    I have pondered over this for many years, and let me say that it is to my highest belief that the white horse and the rider signified by the first seal, is none other than the holy ghost.

    The COMFORTER that was promised to us by Jesus Christ; remember before His death he told us that it was EXPEDIENT that he go away, so that the comforter would come to us and abide with us.

    And also make a note that when the Revelation was given to John, he was told NOT to seal the book. because the time was at hand.

    Nearly two thousand years have passed since this vision.

    We have the description of the first seal as being WHITE. This is no trickery of God, because He is not the author of confusion. It is very plain that WHITE symbolizes everything PURE and CLEAN.
    This is definately not a counterfiet antichrist in my belief.

    Next he has a CROWN and goes forth conquering and to conquer.
    How we are promised to recieve a CROWN of EVERLASTING LIFE by Christ; We are told to hold fast to the crown, so that noone should take it. Rev 2:10
    It symbolizes victory, and reward.

    Lastly we have a BOW.
    Sadly, there are NUMEROUS pages written on this BOW being a weapon that is separated from an arrow. War & death have been attached to this rider; but nothing could be further from the truth.

    AND I SAW AND BEHOLD A WHITE HORSE AND HE THAT SAT ON HIM HAD A BOW:

    Have you ever seen a rainbow, during a storm? Did you know that when God first destroyed the earth, the BOW became a token of the covenant between God and the earth: the PROMISE that he would never again destroy the world with a flood.
    Gen 9:11-17

    Did you also know that the Lord is described as such:

    Ez 1:27 And I saw as the color of amber as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward; and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, which had brightness round about it.
    AS THE APPEARANCE OF THE BOW THAT IS IN THE CLOUD OF RAIN, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. THIS WAS THE APPEARANCE OF THE LIKENESS OF GLORY OF THE LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face and I heard a voice of one that spoke.

    We are told in 1 John 5:7 FOR THERE ARE THREE THAT BEAR RECORD IN HEAVEN, THE FATHER, THE WORD (JESUS CHRIST) AND THE HOLY GHOST (COMFORTER) THESE THREE ARE ONE.

    I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you.

    But the COMFORTER, which is the holy ghost, whom the FATHER SHALL SEND in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to remembrence, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    Nevertheless I tell you the truth; IT IS EXPEDIENT FOR YOU THAT I GO AWAY, for if I go not away the COMFORTER will not come to you; BUT IF I DEPART, I WILL SEND HIM UNTO YOU.

    After the death of Jesus, his disciple John saw and heard the vision on the isle of Patmos, and wrote the book of Revelation. And when the first seal was opened by Christ (the lamb) the HOLY GHOST, symbolized by the WHITE HORSE was sent out inot the world, and is STILL HERE TODAY for us.
     
  17. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran

    +66
    Non-Denom
    No Sorry, you are putting your own understanding on this.

    it is NO COINCIDENCE that each event from Rev 6 and the prophecy of Matt 24: are Identical.

    Jesus is the Revealor of the future he does so in Rev 6 and Matt 24: they are the same.

    EVENT FOR EVENT.

    Notice also when Jesus does come on a White Horse in Rev 19:

    It says whose rider is called faithful and true.

    Look at the differences this rider wages war JUSTLY

    He has no weapon unlike the Horseman in rev 6 who goes out BENT ON CONQUEST

    So you are saying the Holy Spirit is Obsessed with conquest.

    Not only that the rider in Rev 6 is GIVEN a Crown

    In Rev 19: Jesus has many crowns.

    No do not be fooled the White horse represents FALSE CHRISTIANITY.

    Just as Jesus said the first thing to watch out for after he was gone was false Christianity.
     
  18. Palatka44

    Palatka44 Unabashedly Baptist

    +88
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican

    You are so on to it.
    One thing I would like to point out too is that the rider in Rev 6:2 does not have an idenity. He is described by his mission, to conquer. I also reiterate that his crown is given to him. Also note that all four riders do not have an idenity and are described by their mission.

    When ever the Church or our Lord Jesus is mentioned, John describes them as it relates to their missions but also Identifies them.
    Rev 1:20
    20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

    Rev 14:14
    14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
    Rev 19 11-16
    11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
    12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

    What is Revelation?

    It is the Revelation of Jesus Christ Is it not? :bow:
    Where Jesus is to be revealed he is revealed. Where these scriptures gives us a scene to an event that is not our Lord or related to him they do not identify who or what that person or object might be, because it is not our Lord nor His Church. He reveals the Church because He is revealing himself to his Bride. The is what Revelation is all about. For it cumulates with His wedding to His Bride. Those of us that are happily married know that the groom desiers to reveal everything to his bride :clap: and so too the bride to her groom. It is no different with our Lord or there would not even be a Revelation for us to pounder.
     
  19. CK Blue

    CK Blue New Member

    32
    +1
    just the facts; yes we should all beware of false christianity.

    And I will say that there are similarities between matthew 24 and Revelation.
    But I do not believe they are "identical".

    I would not say that the holy ghost is "obsessed" with conquest. Heavens no! Let me try and explain the importance of this rider, for all of us. There is great comfort in understanding what this first seal represents.

    To 'conquer" means to achieve and to overcome.

    The first seal shows a great purpose: the rider is going forth CONQUERING AND TO CONQUER.

    What does conquer mean?
    To overcome. To achieve.

    Blessed is he who overcomes.
    In the world ye shall have tribulation but be of good cheer, I HAVE OVERCOME THE WORLD.

    We know that God does not allow us to be tempted above what we can handle.

    We also know that there is spiritual wickedness in high places.

    Jesus knew that at his death, the "prince of this world" was coming.

    He made it very clear that we would be protected.
    He told us it was IMPERATIVE that he leave, so that the COMFORTER would come.

    A spiritual protection was promised to us, through the holy ghost.

    When we have asked the holy spirit to come and dwell with us, we are sealing ourselves with the spiritual mark of God.

    How can anyone overcome without the holy spirit?
    They cannot.

    We are told how the holy spirit shall help us "overcome" and "conquer" when we are faced with adversity:

    Mark 13:11 (which is also parallels Matt 24) But when they shall lead you and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand WHAT YE SHALL SPEAK; neither do ye premeditate; but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour; that speak ye; FOR IT IS NOT YE THAT SPEAK, BUT THE HOLY GHOST.

    And again in Luke 21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony. Settle it therefore in your hearts; not to meditate before what ye shall answer.
    FOR I SHALL GIVE YE A MOUTH AND WISDOM, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay, nor resist.

    The holy spirit (comforter) must be>> within you, in order for the holy spirit to be able to speak>> through you.

    Notice that the holy spirit comes FIRST before the other six seals of war, death, famine and disease.

    How WONDERFUL to know that although we are in the world, we are also protected.
    I believe it in my heart that the first seal that was opened by Christ, was his promise:
    The holy spirit.
     
  20. CK Blue

    CK Blue New Member

    32
    +1
    JTF: I meant to add that there is no weapon on the rider of the white horse: did you read my post?

    HE THAT SAT ON HIM HAD A BOW.

    Not a bow and arrow weapon.

    But a BOW. A reminder of the covenant that God made when he first destroyed the earth. With water.

    And the opening of the seven seals is the second and final destruction of this earth.

    Is anyone listening?
     
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