The True Sabbath

[gildajuliahanna]

If you notice in my post I did not negate "obeying God and His Word" which would necessarily involve NOT committing murder, adultry etc. My point was the HOW of the obedience.

I agree that the ceremonial and judicial law, as given by Moses has been abrogated in as far as it relates to obedience.

The moral law has been abrogated as it respects the faithful in two ways. The curse of the law has been removed as it respects those who are justified by faith in Christ as I mentioned in my previous post. (Rom 8:1;6:14) Secondly, the moral law has been abrogated (abolished, repealed, annulled) in reference to Christians, as it respects constraint. The law no longer forces and wrests obedience as a tyrant, or as a master compels a worthless servant to render obedience to his behests; because Christ commences in us BY HIS SPIRIT a free and cheerful obedience, so that we willingly comply with whatever the law requires from us.
(More info about this in the Commentary on the Heidelberg Catechism) written by Dr. Zacharias Ursinus. You can order it on the web.

The issue of the Sabbath is whether it falls under the ceremonial law which was abolished. That doesn't mean we no longer worship God but rather we truly worship God in Spirit and in Truth and stop pointing fingers at people who "pick up sticks" or "do dishes" etc on the day of worship as many so-called Sabbatarians do.

GJH

 

[SetFreeOne]

Okay. Fair enough. But your answers are full of misinformation and blatant generalizations. Let's begin with your notion that the RCC has something to do with moving corporate worship to Sunday. According to my sources, the RCC did not exist in the first three centuries of the Church. (The Writings of the Ante-Nicene Fathers)

The Church was lead by the Apostles under direct influence of the Holy Spirit. They taught faithful men, who in turn taught other faithful men (2 Timothy 2:2). These men held fast to the "traditions which [they] you were taught." (2 Thess. 2:15).

As the Church grew, it became evident that the leadership of the Church needed to be adapted to fit the new growth (Acts 6). As she moved into the second century, following Biblical pattern, she expanded her leadership to include regional pastors (bishops/presbyters/overseers). These positions grew into four major geographical regions, or sees. The four sees of the first three centuries were Rome, Jerusalem, Antioch and Alexandria.

Each see was independant of the other three. And no see had a right to tell another how to govern itself. However, an agreement was in place that placed the see of Rome as "first among equals." So, if a problem arose that one see could not resolve, then they WENT TO the bishop of Rome to ask to be a judge in the matter. But the Bishop of Rome could not step in until asked.

In summary, there was no way the RCC could make a universal proclomation that all Christians were bound to keep. The Bishop didn't have that kind of power. So, Rome did not move corporate worship to Sunday, it couldn't.

Further more, we know from the Didache, which was written in 90 AD, that Sunday worship was already the norm. So, if you want to claim that the RCC was established while the apostles were still living, and before the NT was finished being written, be my guest.

I'll address other points of your response as I have time.

Peace.

Rdr. Peter

Peter although this is good info (that I already knew) this does not address the fact that the RCC did indeed change the SABBATH day to the first day instead of the seventh. We are reaching out of the realm of the day of worship to the realm of the Sabbath in general. Which is why I stated that the RCC is responsible for the argument of which day the Sabbath is. Notice Paul and others observed the Sabbath as well as Sunday worship (Sunday being a day set up to honor the third day, the risen Lord). Now the RCC even CLAIMED they changed the Sabbath itself from Saturday to Sunday.
They also claimed to have the authority to change Gods commandment, thus usurping Gods own authority.

 

[GypsyBella]

If you notice in my post I did not negate "obeying God and His Word" which would necessarily involve NOT committing murder, adultry etc. My point was the HOW of the obedience.

I agree that the ceremonial and judicial law, as given by Moses has been abrogated in as far as it relates to obedience.

The moral law has been abrogated as it respects the faithful in two ways. The curse of the law has been removed as it respects those who are justified by faith in Christ as I mentioned in my previous post. (Rom 8:1;6:14) Secondly, the moral law has been abrogated (abolished, repealed, annulled) in reference to Christians, as it respects constraint. The law no longer forces and wrests obedience as a tyrant, or as a master compels a worthless servant to render obedience to his behests; because Christ commences in us BY HIS SPIRIT a free and cheerful obedience, so that we willingly comply with whatever the law requires from us.
(More info about this in the Commentary on the Heidelberg Catechism) written by Dr. Zacharias Ursinus. You can order it on the web.

The issue of the Sabbath is whether it falls under the ceremonial law which was abolished. That doesn't mean we no longer worship God but rather we truly worship God in Spirit and in Truth and stop pointing fingers at people who "pick up sticks" or "do dishes" etc on the day of worship as many so-called Sabbatarians do.

GJH

Ha ha ha! ...as many so-called Sabbatarians do? That's the best one I've heard all day!

No one here is condemning you for picking up sticks or washing dishes. Why are you lashing out?

"Christ commences us by HIS SPIRIT a free and cheerful obedience"... YES! Obedience of what? Read Romans 7:7- "I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet". And what about 1 John 3:4- "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin in the transgression of the law". Note that these are NT passages. The Bible calls the eternal moral code that God wrote in stone with his own finger, the Ten Commandments, a covenant. It also calls his promise to never again destroy the earth by flood a covenant. Covenants, especially in the OT understanding of the word, are much stronger than contracts or promises. They aren't meant to be broken.

 

[SetFreeOne]

Ha ha ha! ...as many so-called Sabbatarians do? That's the best one I've heard all day!

No one here is condemning you for picking up sticks or washing dishes. Why are you lashing out?

"Christ commences us by HIS SPIRIT a free and cheerful obedience"... YES! Obedience of what? Read Romans 7:7- "I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet". And what about 1 John 3:4- "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin in the transgression of the law". Note that these are NT passages. The Bible calls the eternal moral code that God wrote in stone with his own finger, the Ten Commandments, a covenant. It also calls his promise to never again destroy the earth by flood a covenant. Covenants, especially in the OT understanding of the word, are much stronger than contracts or promises. They aren't meant to be broken.

GypsyBella this is the second time I have witnessed you laughing at other peoples thoughts . Its as if they mean nothing to you. Like you take no one but yourself seriously. Maybe it would be better if you wouldnt do that.

 

[Peter]

Well, then, let's address the issue of "every thing God established is written down."

Before I go any further, did you celebrate Easter this year on March 27?

Peace.

Rdr. Peter

 

[SetFreeOne]

No Peter... You answer my questions. No evasive tactics.

 

[GypsyBella]

GypsyBella this is the second time I have witnessed you laughing at other peoples thoughts . Its as if they mean nothing to you. Like you take no one but yourself seriously. Maybe it would be better if you wouldnt do that.

I'm sorry if this was taken harshly. I wasn't laughing AT anybody. I'm only trying to lighten things up. People in these forums get very defensive, which in turn makes them very offensive. However, I am NOT saying the things being discussed here are to be taken lightly. Again, if anyone took offense to my light-heartedness, I do apologize. If anyone wants to laugh at me, you are welcome to, as I believe you have to be able to laugh at yourself. I want us to be able to agree to disagree, if necessary, and tackle these issues as friends in Christ.

 

[SetFreeOne]

I'm sorry if this was taken harshly. I wasn't laughing AT anybody. I'm only trying to lighten things up. People in these forums get very defensive, which in turn makes them very offensive. However, I am NOT saying the things being discussed here are to be taken lightly. Again, if anyone took offense to my light-heartedness, I do apologize. If anyone wants to laugh at me, you are welcome to, as I believe you have to be able to laugh at yourself. I want us to be able to agree to disagree, if necessary, and tackle these issues as friends in Christ.

I just dont want you TO be taken harshly. Its a good thing to have light heartedness, especially in such a committed discussion, but sometimes it can be taken the wrong way.

 

[Peter]

Im not trying to be evasive. But if you celebrated Easter on March 27, then you celebrated a man made festival not established by God. That's all.

Peace.

Rdr. Peter

 

[SetFreeOne]

Im not trying to be evasive. But if you celebrated Easter on March 27, then you celebrated a man made festival not established by God. That's all.

Peace.

Rdr. Peter

Sunday worship wasnt established by God either, that doesnt mean He didnt accept that day as "observed to the Lord". I asked a simple question Peter. I should think you would provide me with a simple answer. I dont think you understood when I said I also worship on Sunday. So you can drop your shields cuz I wont fire any lazer beams your way.I see no reason why Resurrection Day has anything to do with this.

 

[Peter]

Let me see if I understand you correctly: There are things that God did not establish, but He has put His seal of approval on?

Peace.

Rdr. Peter

 

[GypsyBella]

Let me see if I understand you correctly: There are things that God did not establish, but He has put His seal of approval on?

Peace.

Rdr. Peter

Um... this is what I am gathering from this whole thread...

Saturday is the Sabbath God created, as the Bible says. Is there anything WRONG with gathering with brothers and sisters in Christ on a day set aside by man in addition to observing the Sabbath of the Commandments? Of course not! But that doesn't take Sabbath-hood away from Saturday, nor does it make Sunday the Sabbath day of rest.

It seems to me that most of these arguments don't actually center around "what day is the Sabbath?", but more around, "What day do you go to church?", which isn't really the question at hand.

 

[Peter]

Then let me tell you what the EO stance is:

Saturday is the Sabbath, Sunday is the Lord's day.

Now, as to the "rules" of Sabbath keeping, that is a whole other issue.

Peace.

Rdr. Peter

 

[SetFreeOne]

Um... this is what I am gathering from this whole thread...

Saturday is the Sabbath God created, as the Bible says. Is there anything WRONG with gathering with brothers and sisters in Christ on a day set aside by man in addition to observing the Sabbath of the Commandments? Of course not! But that doesn't take Sabbath-hood away from Saturday, nor does it make Sunday the Sabbath day of rest.

It seems to me that most of these arguments don't actually center around "what day is the Sabbath?", but more around, "What day do you go to church?", which isn't really the question at hand.

Exactamundo! People confuse Sabbath as the mandated day of WORSHIP. When it is a mandated day of REST. This leads to people judging others because they WORSHIP on Sunday INSTEAD of Saturday. Get it?

 

[SetFreeOne]

Then let me tell you what the EO stance is:

Saturday is the Sabbath, Sunday is the Lord's day.

Well at least they're getting something right! OI just kidding! HEHE

 

[GypsyBella]

I just want to say thank you to you guys... this is the first Sabbath thread that I've been involved in where anything makes any sense at all...

 

[GypsyBella]

Then let me tell you what the EO stance is:

Saturday is the Sabbath, Sunday is the Lord's day.

Now, as to the "rules" of Sabbath keeping, that is a whole other issue.

Peace.

Rdr. Peter

Peter, would you care to start another thread on the rules of Sabbath keeping? I would be interested in people's opinions!

 

[SetFreeOne]

Peter, would you care to start another thread on the rules of Sabbath keeping? I would be interested in people's opinions!

I didnt know there were rules for the Sabbath day. Why would taking a breather need rules??? hehe.

 

[GypsyBella]

I didnt know there were rules for the Sabbath day. Why would taking a breather need rules??? hehe.

Ha ha ha! This is true!

I suppose I should rephrase:

Maybe, "What did God create the Sabbath rest to be?" Does only mean "don't go to work"? Or does it mean you literally shouldn't do anything but worship and reflect all day? Does the Bible make any direct command regarding this (only including God's law, of course... not including the law of Moses)? The only thing popping into my mind at the moment is Genesis 2:2-3:

"By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing: so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done."

 

[babbred]

I've been involved in various denominations. They all worshipped on Sunday and Wedesdays (I'm from the Bible Belt where Wed services are normal), and I never heard the Voice of God saying we were sinning. The other posters here have raised some excellent points, with which I agree.

1. There's no verses in the NT to support it. Indeed, under Paul, the church tried to move away from the Judaic influence so Gentiles wouldn't feel uncomfortable. If Paul accepted those who weren't circumcised, I don't think he would have made too big a deal on what day they worshipped.

2. How far do we go? Do we stay home on Sat, not drive, shop or do anything remotely un-Sabbathlike? I used to babysit for an Orthodox Jewish couple. They would set their VCR (this was long before Tivo) because they couldn't watch TV, make sure their answering machine was on because they couldn't answer the phone, and left some lights on because they couldn't flip a light switch! In fact, I remember once they had some friends visiting on a Sabbath. One of the friends keeled over from a heart attack, and they had to have us call the ambulance. And when it arrived, one of my parents had to ride in the ambulance with the poor man because the hospital was beyond the limits of what Jews could travel on a Sabbath! So if you're going to keep the Law, then you need to keep all of it.