The True Sabbath

[goldenviolet]

I have one simple question for you. And I base it off this:

Observe the Sabbath day to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you.
Six days shall you labor and do all of your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your ox, nor your donkey, nor any of your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates, that your male servant and your
female servant may rest as well as you.

Ok I guess I have three questions:

1: What are the worship habits of animals?
2: How do you know the "stranger within your gates" worships the same God?
3: What does God Himself mandate that you do on Sabbath?

your questions are very interesting. the bible was clear than none should, but all should rest. it is a matter of reverance, obediance, honor, and care/we need rest. animals and servants, the stranger (person in your mist, alien to your beliefs)... all were to rest. the mandate to rest was to stop and be reverant, obediant, honor our God, and care for ourselves/we need rest, to revive, refresh, appreciate, celebrate. a day to feed our souls.

BIC !!!

God desires mercy not sacrifice. some people honor the sabbeth on other days. if you work all week and you have tuesday off; then honor tuesday as your sabbeth day, then you have still have obeyed. some churches have extra services for those people.

 

[GypsyBella]

The Didache (90 AD), Ignatius (107) and Justin Martyr (100-165) make it quite clear that coporate worship was indeed practiced on Sunday. The OP wrongly states that this was some invention of Constantine. This is just bad scholarship.

I don't remember anyone ever saying that Constantine "invented" Sunday worship. I just remember that he made it "official".

If these gentlemen practiced corporate worship on Sunday, that is terrific! So do I, sometimes! However, Jesus visited the synagogue on the seventh day. If this is the day that he held as the Sabbath, then so will I. People can worship on any day of the week that they desire... but Sabbath observance should be Saturday.

 

[Peter]

The above misses the mark. Christ established His Church (the fullness of Him that fills all things). The Church is Christ's true body, and He it's true head. The Church, under guidance of it's head, moved corporate worship to Sunday.

True Jesus went into the syagogues and the temple. But also remember His "time had not yet come."


To answer the OP, Saturday is the true Sabbath. But Sunday is the Lord's day, and is the day God established as the day of Christian worship.

Peace.

Rdr. Peter

 

[SetFreeOne]

To answer the OP, Saturday is the true Sabbath. But Sunday is the Lord's day, and is the day God established as the day of Christian worship.

Peace.

Rdr. Peter

When....did God... establish Sunday? Dont get me wrong I worship corporately with my church on Sunday, but its because the Apostles (Paul, I think) established it. Not because RCC or anyone else "switched the sabbath day to sunday" .... which they had no right to do. I also will soon start participating in Sabbath.....Saturday...If we look in Leviticus the "day of rest" was to be observed " in all your dwellings".... Do you have a church in your house? Ok but back to my question. I would like to know where in the bible the Lord established sunday as the day of christian worship?

 

[Peter]

Who said anything about the RCC? I didn't!
There are many things Jesus taught that are not written down. (Just because it's written down doesn't mean it's true, and just because it's true doesn't mean it's written down.) He did spend 40 days with the apostles, teaching them things concerning Himself, after His resurrection.

Of course we do have those who believe that God is incapable of keeping His word, or that He isn't the true head of His body, the Church. We have those who don't believe the Church is "the fullness of Him who fills all things." They don't believe that the Church is "the pillar and foundation of truth." They don't believe God has directed His Church since Pentecost, like He took a vacation or something. They think that Christ's Body gave itself to another. They believe that the Body of Christ was somehow decapitated.

So what do they do? They lean unto their own understanding, rather than the understanding of Christians from the very beginning.

The historical record is QUITE lucid. Christians were worshipping together, apart from the Jews,on Sunday, in the first century ("Didache" or The Teachings of the Apostles, 90AD). I challenge you to show me historical proof that the accepted practice was Saturday corporate worship, complete with Eucharist. Go to the Church history threads and see my post there.

You won't find your answer in the Bible. The answer is found in the Church, the Body that so many seem to be afraid of, and yet to which Christ is attached.

But, if you think the Church doesn't have the right to make such decisions, then what do you do with the apostles making a brand new leadership office? Look in the OT. Where in the OT is there a "deacon." No where! That is a man made office!!!!!!!!!
It wasn't "in the Bible" until AFTER it was invented!!!

Rdr. Peter

 

[SetFreeOne]

Who said anything about the RCC? I didn't!
There are many things Jesus taught that are not written down. (Just because it's written down doesn't mean it's true, and just because it's true doesn't mean it's written down.) He did spend 40 days with the apostles, teaching them things concerning Himself, after His resurrection.

Calm down ok? I said something about the RCC because they are the ones at fault for this whole confusing debate. And it has raged for centuries. I respectfully challenge the notion that "just because it is written down doesnt mean its true". This notion does not apply to the bible. I dont believe Jesus taught anything after His resurrection that He didnt teach beforehand. And I believe the epistles state a few of those teachings.

Of course we do have those who believe that God is incapable of keeping His word, or that He isn't the true head of His body, the Church. We have those who don't believe the Church is "the fullness of Him who fills all things." They don't believe that the Church is "the pillar and foundation of truth." They don't believe God has directed His Church since Pentecost, like He took a vacation or something. They think that Christ's Body gave itself to another. They believe that the Body of Christ was somehow decapitated.

So what do they do? They lean unto their own understanding, rather than the understanding of Christians from the very beginning.

I do not understand what the point of this is. I apologize. As far as leaning on my own understanding or those of christians from the very begining, I lean on Gods understanding.

The historical record is QUITE lucid. Christians were worshipping together, apart from the Jews,on Sunday, in the first century ("Didache" or The Teachings of the Apostles, 90AD). I challenge you to show me historical proof that the accepted practice was Saturday corporate worship, complete with Eucharist. Go to the Church history threads and see my post there.

First of all I didnt state that corporate practice was Saturday. I asked where in the bible did God establish Sunday as THE corporate day of worship. I do believe I stated in my previous post that I worship on Sunday and why I did. Your challenge is irrelevant. I practice communion. Not Eucharist. I dont believe in transsubstantiation (in case that is what eucharist is).

You won't find your answer in the Bible. The answer is found in the Church, the Body that so many seem to be afraid of, and yet to which Christ is attached.

God had everything He established written down. Its either in the ot, or its in the nt. My answer has to come from the bible or the question remains unanswered. I am not afraid of the true church. And by the church, do you mean the body of Christ? Or the Catholic Church?

But, if you think the Church doesn't have the right to make such decisions, then what do you do with the apostles making a brand new leadership office? Look in the OT. Where in the OT is there a "deacon." No where! That is a man made office!!!!!!!!!
It wasn't "in the Bible" until AFTER it was invented!!!

Again lets calm down. No one has the right to usurp GODS AUTHORITY. These men had the authority to organize the christian church per direction from God Himself. The Apostles never ever changed any of Gods commandments nor did they change any of His appointed days. If you notice, the apostle Paul STILL OBSERVED SATURDAY AS THE SABBATH. As is found in acts. So Saturday was Sabbath, and Sunday was their special day to worship and honor the risen Lord.

 

[GypsyBella]

The above misses the mark. Christ established His Church (the fullness of Him that fills all things). The Church is Christ's true body, and He it's true head. The Church, under guidance of it's head, moved corporate worship to Sunday.

True Jesus went into the syagogues and the temple. But also remember His "time had not yet come."


To answer the OP, Saturday is the true Sabbath. But Sunday is the Lord's day, and is the day God established as the day of Christian worship.

Peace.

Rdr. Peter

Ha ha ha! The above does not "miss the mark", as you say.

First of all, no where does the Bible say that Sunday is the Lord's Day. If Sunday is the day chosen by "the church" so be it. However, I choose every day as a day of worship, because THE BIBLE tells me to. Beyond that, yes, Saturday is the Sabbath day of REST. I choose to gather with other brothers and sisters in Christ on the Sabbath, so that we can spend time together in the Lord on that Day of Rest, praying, learning, praising Him, and reflecting on the week. Not to mention I work Sunday through Friday, and I won't work on Saturday for obvious reasons. Saturday is really the only day I CAN go to church.

Also, the idea of corporate worship is a strange phrase to me, as I see worship as a state of being.

 

[Koey]

You're getting mad, Koey! ...Sounds like you have had bad experiences with SDA's... I understand... I've had bad experiences with pentacostals, but I don't judge them all by my personal experience... that would be a stereotype...

Sorry! I apologise! Yes, you are right. I have had bad experiences with both seventh day churches similar to the SDA's and Pentecostals too. Please forgive me for being offensive. I find the leadership of both groups to be the cause of the bad experiences and even that is not their fault. They are simply educated in too narrow a world-view and cannot see a Christianity beyond their own ignorance.

 

[GypsyBella]

Sorry! I apologise! Yes, you are right. I have had bad experiences with both seventh day churches similar to the SDA's and Pentecostals too. Please forgive me for being offensive. I find the leadership of both groups to be the cause of the bad experiences and even that is not their fault. They are simply educated in too narrow a world-view and cannot see a Christianity beyond their own ignorance.

I'm not offended, Koey! I totally see where you are coming from. I don't believe that there is any denomination that "has it all together". I've been Baptist, Apostolic, (trinitarian) Pentacostal, AOG, and Vineyard (non-denom). (That's a lot for my age, huh?) I attend an SDA church because it is CLOSEST to what I believe. I also think that the true church isn't just one denomination, as some believe- I believe it is scattered all over the world. In fact, I've heard the same thing from a lot of SDA ministers, as well as ministers from many other denominations. In the end, it will all come down to who truly wants to follow Christ.

 

[Koey]

I'm not offended, Koey! I totally see where you are coming from. I don't believe that there is any denomination that "has it all together". I've been Baptist, Apostolic, (trinitarian) Pentacostal, AOG, and Vineyard (non-denom). (That's a lot for my age, huh?) I attend an SDA church because it is CLOSEST to what I believe. I also think that the true church isn't just one denomination, as some believe- I believe it is scattered all over the world. In fact, I've heard the same thing from a lot of SDA ministers, as well as ministers from many other denominations. In the end, it will all come down to who truly wants to follow Christ.

Thank you! Like you, I've been in a lot of churches too: Presbyterian, Baptist, 7th Day and AOG Pentecostal. I've also attended a lot of others looking for that "perfect" church, including: Anglican/Episcopal, Lutheran, Methodist, Evangelical Free, Charismatic, etc.
I have heard God speak to me personally (i.e. to my inner self) in all but one, and that was a very liberal church. So, I believe God is there working in most of them, so I get very annoyed by exclusivism.

 

[Peter]

Hey, having tried all the rest, why not try the best?

Peace.

Rdr. Peter

 

[GypsyBella]

That was cute!

So, Peter, why don't you send me a PM convincing me that Orthodox is best? I'm always open to learning new things!

Gypsy

 

[SetFreeOne]

Peter would you address my last post please?

 

[Peter]

Calm down ok? I said something about the RCC because they are the ones at fault for this whole confusing debate. And it has raged for centuries. I respectfully challenge the notion that "just because it is written down doesnt mean its true". This notion does not apply to the bible. I dont believe Jesus taught anything after His resurrection that He didnt teach beforehand. And I believe the epistles state a few of those teachings.

The RCC has NOTHING to do with this issue. The Bishop of Rome was one of (at the time) 4 ecumenical Bishops. The others were in Jerusalem, Antioch (of whom Peter was the first) and Alexandria.

I do not understand what the point of this is. I apologize. As far as leaning on my own understanding or those of christians from the very begining, I lean on Gods understanding.

Which is equal to saying they did not.

First of all I didnt state that corporate practice was Saturday. I asked where in the bible did God establish Sunday as THE corporate day of worship. I do believe I stated in my previous post that I worship on Sunday and why I did. Your challenge is irrelevant. I practice communion. Not Eucharist. I dont believe in transsubstantiation (in case that is what eucharist is).

Eucharist is the English of a Greek word meaning "thanksgiving."

God had everything He established written down. Its either in the ot, or its in the nt. My answer has to come from the bible or the question remains unanswered. I am not afraid of the true church. And by the church, do you mean the body of Christ? Or the Catholic Church?

Again, a very limited understanding of history. The Bishop of Rome has never held authority over any area except his own.

Again lets calm down. No one has the right to usurp GODS AUTHORITY. These men had the authority to organize the christian church per direction from God Himself. The Apostles never ever changed any of Gods commandments nor did they change any of His appointed days. If you notice, the apostle Paul STILL OBSERVED SATURDAY AS THE SABBATH. As is found in acts. So Saturday was Sabbath, and Sunday was their special day to worship and honor the risen Lord.

So, the apostles never quit requiring people to be circumcised? .

It may appear I'm shouthing, but I'm not. And your questions require so much re-education, I don't have the time to go into depth. Sorry.

Peace.

Rdr. Peter

 

[gildajuliahanna]

How about:
The Sabbath in the Bible was on Saturday but as Christ has fulfilled all the laws including the Sabbath, we now have our REST IN CHRIST and worship on any day of the week. We don't try to keep the commandments because Christ kept them perfectly and since now we are justified or declared righteous because of Christ's perfect righteousness we obey God and his Word, NOT by going BACK to the 10 Commandments but by living in the SPIRIT or by being sanctified by the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 2:8,9 is what everybody reads but what about verse 10 where it says, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God hath BEFORE ORDAINED that we should walk in them.

Seems like the author and finisher of our faith is Jesus Christ so where pray tell do you or I come in regarding trying to keep the Sabbath or any other commandments?

GJH

 

[SetFreeOne]

It may appear I'm shouthing, but I'm not. And your questions require so much re-education, I don't have the time to go into depth. Sorry.

Peace.

Rdr. Peter

No actually it appears you are employing evasive maneuvers. And maybe you can approach me as if I had just a small bit of intellegence.

 

[GypsyBella]

How about:
The Sabbath in the Bible was on Saturday but as Christ has fulfilled all the laws including the Sabbath, we now have our REST IN CHRIST and worship on any day of the week. We don't try to keep the commandments because Christ kept them perfectly and since now we are justified or declared righteous because of Christ's perfect righteousness we obey God and his Word, NOT by going BACK to the 10 Commandments but by living in the SPIRIT or by being sanctified by the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 2:8,9 is what everybody reads but what about verse 10 where it says, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God hath BEFORE ORDAINED that we should walk in them.

Seems like the author and finisher of our faith is Jesus Christ so where pray tell do you or I come in regarding trying to keep the Sabbath or any other commandments?

GJH

Are you saying that it's okay to murder now? Or okay to sleep with your neighbors wife? Why do people think that the Ten Commandments (the God-Written Law) were actually a part of the ceremonial laws of Moses which contained hundreds of specific regulations?

Deuteronomy 4:13-14 says this:
And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments: and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. And the Lord commanded me at the time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

Moses makes a clear separation here between the Ten Commandments "which HE commanded you" and the statutes which "He commanded ME" to give the people.

Jesus did away with the law of Moses... not the Law of God.

 

[SetFreeOne]

Are you saying that it's okay to murder now? Or okay to sleep with your neighbors wife? Why do people think that the Ten Commandments (the God-Written Law) were actually a part of the ceremonial laws of Moses which contained hundreds of specific regulations?

Deuteronomy 4:13-14 says this:
And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments: and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. And the Lord commanded me at the time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

Moses makes a clear separation here between the Ten Commandments "which HE commanded you" and the statutes which "He commanded ME" to give the people.

Jesus did away with the law of Moses... not the Law of God.

I have asked this same question. Trying to get an answer is like pulling teeth

 

[Peter]

Okay. Fair enough. But your answers are full of misinformation and blatant generalizations. Let's begin with your notion that the RCC has something to do with moving corporate worship to Sunday. According to my sources, the RCC did not exist in the first three centuries of the Church. (The Writings of the Ante-Nicene Fathers)

The Church was lead by the Apostles under direct influence of the Holy Spirit. They taught faithful men, who in turn taught other faithful men (2 Timothy 2:2). These men held fast to the "traditions which [they] you were taught." (2 Thess. 2:15).

As the Church grew, it became evident that the leadership of the Church needed to be adapted to fit the new growth (Acts 6). As she moved into the second century, following Biblical pattern, she expanded her leadership to include regional pastors (bishops/presbyters/overseers). These positions grew into four major geographical regions, or sees. The four sees of the first three centuries were Rome, Jerusalem, Antioch and Alexandria.

Each see was independant of the other three. And no see had a right to tell another how to govern itself. However, an agreement was in place that placed the see of Rome as "first among equals." So, if a problem arose that one see could not resolve, then they WENT TO the bishop of Rome to ask to be a judge in the matter. But the Bishop of Rome could not step in until asked.

In summary, there was no way the RCC could make a universal proclomation that all Christians were bound to keep. The Bishop didn't have that kind of power. So, Rome did not move corporate worship to Sunday, it couldn't.

Further more, we know from the Didache, which was written in 90 AD, that Sunday worship was already the norm. So, if you want to claim that the RCC was established while the apostles were still living, and before the NT was finished being written, be my guest.

I'll address other points of your response as I have time.

Peace.

Rdr. Peter

 

[GypsyBella]

That's a lot of good info, Peter, thanks!

Okay: when EXACTLY did corporate Sunday worship begin, and why?