The sheep and goat judgment of Matthew 25: The Progressive Dispensationalist view

[Marilyn C]

You do not make any sense at all. What are you talking about??

You said `many are called and few are chosen,` and I was pointing out that that scripture does not refer to the B/C.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I agree we, the B/C will meet the Lord in the air, however that is before the trib. After the trib, the Lord will come to earth and deliver Israel and judge the nations that are still on the earth.

Do you have any thoughts on what I said regarding how Acts 1:11 should be understood, though? Can you see that it talks about the manner in which He will descend from heaven rather than talking about the location that He will descend to? I appreciate that you take the time to reply to me, but you often don't specifically address what I actually said.

Also, where does Acts 1:11 give any indication that He would descend from heaven more than once in the future? It doesn't. It only says He will descend from heaven in the same manner that He ascended to heaven. There is no basis for thinking He will descend from heaven twice in the future as you believe. Scripture never teaches that.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I agree that we do not come back to earth.

Yeah, his argument applies to post-trib premils and not to pre-tribs like you. But, what do you believe is the reason we will meet Him in the air if we were going to be taken to heaven afterwards? Why would we not just meet Him in heaven instead?

 

[Marilyn C]

Yeah, his argument applies to post-trib premils and not to pre-tribs like you. But, what do you believe is the reason we will meet Him in the air if we were going to be taken to heaven afterwards? Why would we not just meet Him in heaven instead?

Good question. It is because the Lord will be bringing with Him those that `sleep in Christ` and when they receive their new bodies we do also and as the whole Body of Christ we escort the Lord to His own throne in the highest.

 

[Marilyn C]

Do you have any thoughts on what I said regarding how Acts 1:11 should be understood, though? Can you see that it talks about the manner in which He will descend from heaven rather than talking about the location that He will descend to? I appreciate that you take the time to reply to me, but you often don't specifically address what I actually said.

Also, where does Acts 1:11 give any indication that He would descend from heaven more than once in the future? It doesn't. It only says He will descend from heaven in the same manner that He ascended to heaven. There is no basis for thinking He will descend from heaven twice in the future as you believe. Scripture never teaches that.

In Acts 1: 11 the two men, are talking to the disciples. They are of Israel and that is what is being referred to there - Jesus coming back to Israel.

In 1 Thess. 4: 14 where the Lord is bringing those asleep in Him, that is for the B/C.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Good question. It is because the Lord will be bringing with Him those that `sleep in Christ` and when they receive their new bodies we do also and as the whole Body of Christ we escort the Lord to His own throne in the highest.

How does what you said here explain WHY we will meet Him in the air? What you said here does not answer that question. Why would the Lord need to bring those that sleep in Christ with Him "in the air" instead of just staying in heaven and meeting us there? That is the question. If you don't know, you can just say so instead of feeling like you have to answer the question in some way.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

In Acts 1: 11 the two men, are talking to the disciples. They are of Israel and that is what is being referred to there - Jesus coming back to Israel.

No, that is not what is being referred to there. Again, they said He would descend from heaven in the same manner that He ascended to heaven. The manner in which He ascended to heaven was bodily and visibly. He will descend from heaven in like manner. They said NOTHING about Him coming back to the same location from where He left. You are not interpreting the verse according to what it actually says.

In 1 Thess. 4: 14 where the Lord is bringing those asleep in Him, that is for the B/C.

What evidence do you have to back up what you're saying here, though? It's easy to make claims like this, but do you have any scriptural evidence to back it up? The passages themselves certainly do not say what you claim they are saying, so what other scripture do you have to support your interpretation of those passages?

Why would the angels neglect to mention the rapture when talking about Jesus descending from heaven in the same manner that He ascended to heaven? In the rapture He will be descending from heaven, right? What basis is there for thinking that they were not referring to the event written about in 1 Thess 4:14-17? None that I can see.

 

[Marilyn C]

How does what you said here explain WHY we will meet Him in the air? What you said here does not answer that question. Why would the Lord need to bring those that sleep in Christ with Him "in the air" instead of just staying in heaven and meeting us there? That is the question. If you don't know, you can just say so instead of feeling like you have to answer the question in some way.

Because we, the B/C are to be connected to the Head. He will come for us so that He takes His Body as a whole to go to His own throne in the highest.

 

[Marilyn C]

No, that is not what is being referred to there. Again, they said He would descend from heaven in the same manner that He ascended to heaven. The manner in which He ascended to heaven was bodily and visibly. He will descend from heaven in like manner. They said NOTHING about Him coming back to the same location from where He left. You are not interpreting the verse according to what it actually says.


What evidence do you have to back up what you're saying here, though? It's easy to make claims like this, but do you have any scriptural evidence to back it up? The passages themselves certainly do not say what you claim they are saying, so what other scripture do you have to support your interpretation of those passages?

Why would the angels neglect to mention the rapture when talking about Jesus descending from heaven in the same manner that He ascended to heaven? In the rapture He will be descending from heaven, right? What basis is there for thinking that they were not referring to the event written about in 1 Thess 4:14-17? None that I can see.

They were two men, not angels, (Moses and Elijah). The Body of Christ revelation was not revealed at that time, till the Father made Jesus Head of the Body and the Lord gave the revelation to Paul.

Evidence? The scripture clearly says - Even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus....` (1 Thess. 4: 14)

 

[Truth7t7]

I was listening to this podcast by the Grace Evangelical society If a Man is Saved by Faith Alone, What is Happening in Matthew 25 With the Sheep and the Goats? – Grace Evangelical Society

Now I understand why and how some Christians believe that Matthew 24:13, "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.", saved there refers to only physical salvation, as in saved from dying physically during the Tribulation, and not eternal salvation.

To support that belief, they cross reference to Matthew 24:22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

So they reason that, since the elect there, by definition, represents those who are eternally saved by God, the saved in vs 22 must therefore represent something else other than eternal salvation, allowing them to believe that it therefore must be physical.

By holding to that doctrine, they are able to reconcile the sheep and goat judgement with their core doctrine that salvation is always by faith alone without works.

If I understand their reasoning correctly, here is their argument:

Premise 1: 100% of those unfaithful believers would have physically died during the Tribulation
Premise 2: Those who face the sheep and goat judgement after the Tribulation are 100% faithful believers
Conclusion: They are therefore deemed as sheep, by definition.

This argument seems tautological, true by definition.

My question is "Who then will be the goats in that judgement? Will those unfaithful believers who physically died, be resurrected to face that judgement as well, and thus they will be those goats?"

Any comments on their reasoning?

Many Claim Matthew 25:31-46 Is A Preliminary Judgement To Enter A Millennium On This Earth?

(Fact) This is nothing more than a "Parable" using sheep/goats speaking to herdsmen, of the "Final Judgement", also seen in Revelation 20:11-15 and throughout scripture, "Don't Be Deceived"

(Verse 31) The Second Coming

(Verse 34) The "Eternal Kingdom" Is Presented

(Verse 41) The Judgement Of The Wicked To The Lake Of Fire

(Verse 46) "The Conclusion", The Righteous Enter (Eternal Life) In The "Eternal Kingdom" Presented, The Wicked Enter (Eternal Punishment) In The Lake Of Fire

Matthew 25:31-46KJV
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the thr⅕one of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[Guojing]

Many Claim Matthew 25:31-46 Is A Preliminary Judgement To Enter A Millennium On This Earth?

(Fact) This is nothing more than a "Parable" using sheep/goats speaking to herdsmen, of the "Final Judgement", also seen in Revelation 20:11-15 and throughout scripture, "Don't Be Deceived"

Is there anything in that passage that tells you its a parable?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Because we, the B/C are to be connected to the Head. He will come for us so that He takes His Body as a whole to go to His own throne in the highest.

This does not answer my question. Why will we meet Him in the air rather than just meeting Him in heaven? What you're saying does not answer that question at all.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

They were two men, not angels, (Moses and Elijah).

I don't want to get in a big debate about this since it doesn't really matter, but what evidence do you have to support this opinion? I'm guessing you have none. If so, just say so, and we can move on from this side topic.

The Body of Christ revelation was not revealed at that time, till the Father made Jesus Head of the Body and the Lord gave the revelation to Paul.

Evidence? The scripture clearly says - Even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus....` (1 Thess. 4: 14)

What are you claiming that this is evidence of exactly? You are almost always very vague when you communicate for some reason. Please try to be more specific so that I don't have to guess as to what you're intending to say.

 

[Marilyn C]

This does not answer my question. Why will we meet Him in the air rather than just meeting Him in heaven? What you're saying does not answer that question at all.

Those asleep in Christ will come with Him and go into the earth, then rise with new bodies, and we who are alive will join with them in our new bodies. (1 Thess. 4: 14 - 17)

The Father sends Jesus from His right hand to get His Body and take them to His own throne in the third heaven where He will be visibly inaugurated with His kingpriests. (Eph. 1: 20, Acts 3: 20 & 21, Rev. 3: 21)

 

[Marilyn C]

I don't want to get in a big debate about this since it doesn't really matter, but what evidence do you have to support this opinion? I'm guessing you have none. If so, just say so, and we can move on from this side topic.


What are you claiming that this is evidence of exactly? You are almost always very vague when you communicate for some reason. Please try to be more specific so that I don't have to guess as to what you're intending to say.

`Then behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of His decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.` (Luke 9: 30 & 31)

Here we read of the Lord talking to two men, Moses and Elijah concerning what He was about to do - go to the cross. Then later we see these same two men at other significant times - the tomb and the ascension.

`And it happened, as they were greatly perplexed about this, that behold, two men stood by them in shining garments. Then as they were afraid and bowed their faces to the earth, they (the two men) said to them (disciples) "Why do you seek the living among the dead? he is not here, but is risen...` (Luke 24: 4 - 6)

`And while they looked steadfastly towards heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven." (Acts 1: 10 & 11)

Thus we see that these `two men,` Moses and Elijah knew of the Lord`s sacrifice, His burial and resurrection and finally His ascension into heaven. They are precisely the two men who will be qualified to talk to Israel in the tribulation, for they represent the `law and the Prophets,` and are a `witness` to the Messiah - His death, resurrection and ascension.

That is why they are called `witnesses.` What have they witnessed? - Jesus on earth, talking of His departure, His resurrection and ascension, plus speaking of His return in like manner. Who best qualified to speak of those things but the two witnesses - eye witnesses - Moses & Elijah.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Those asleep in Christ will come with Him and go into the earth, then rise with new bodies, and we who are alive will join with them in our new bodies. (1 Thess. 4: 14 - 17)

Right, but how does this answer my question. After what you described here occurs we all are caught up to meet Christ in the air, right? So, my question is why do we meet Him in the air only to then be taken to heaven? Why not just meet Him in heaven rather than in the air after the dead in Christ are raised?

The Father sends Jesus from His right hand to get His Body and take them to His own throne in the third heaven where He will be visibly inaugurated with His kingpriests. (Eph. 1: 20, Acts 3: 20 & 21, Rev. 3: 21)

And why can't they just be caught up there directly rather than meeting Him in the air first? You continue to not answer that question.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

`Then behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of His decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.` (Luke 9: 30 & 31)

Here we read of the Lord talking to two men, Moses and Elijah concerning what He was about to do - go to the cross. Then later we see these same two men at other significant times - the tomb and the ascension.

`And it happened, as they were greatly perplexed about this, that behold, two men stood by them in shining garments. Then as they were afraid and bowed their faces to the earth, they (the two men) said to them (disciples) "Why do you seek the living among the dead? he is not here, but is risen...` (Luke 24: 4 - 6)

`And while they looked steadfastly towards heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven." (Acts 1: 10 & 11)

The first passage is a different event than the other 2 passages which don't mention the two "men" by name. So, you are just making assumptions here. The Greek word translated as "men" there can refer to angels as well. In scripture, the only angels referenced by name have male names (Gabriel, Michael). So, it can just as well be talking about two angels like Gabriel and Michael in Acts 1:10-11 as much as it could be talking about Moses and Elijah. But, like I said, I don't want to get into a big debate about this because it doesn't really matter. You are trying to make it matter more than it does.

Thus we see that these `two men,` Moses and Elijah knew of the Lord`s sacrifice, His burial and resurrection and finally His ascension into heaven. They are precisely the two men who will be qualified to talk to Israel in the tribulation, for they represent the `law and the Prophets,` and are a `witness` to the Messiah - His death, resurrection and ascension.

That is why they are called `witnesses.` What have they witnessed? - Jesus on earth, talking of His departure, His resurrection and ascension, plus speaking of His return in like manner. Who best qualified to speak of those things but the two witnesses - eye witnesses - Moses & Elijah.

And now you have made even more assumptions. Please tell me how Moses and Elijah could be called two olive trees and two candlesticks. What do candlesticks represent elsewhere in the book of Revelation? Individual human beings or something else? What do olive trees represent in Romans 11? Individuals?

 

[Marilyn C]

The first passage is a different event than the other 2 passages which don't mention the two "men" by name. So, you are just making assumptions here. The Greek word translated as "men" there can refer to angels as well. In scripture, the only angels referenced by name have male names (Gabriel, Michael). So, it can just as well be talking about two angels like Gabriel and Michael in Acts 1:10-11 as much as it could be talking about Moses and Elijah. But, like I said, I don't want to get into a big debate about this because it doesn't really matter. You are trying to make it matter more than it does.


And now you have made even more assumptions. Please tell me how Moses and Elijah could be called two olive trees and two candlesticks. What do candlesticks represent elsewhere in the book of Revelation? Individual human beings or something else? What do olive trees represent in Romans 11? Individuals?

When someone, (God in this case) writes something earlier in their work then it has been explained and does not need to constantly writing the same words.

A witness, witnesses to what they have heard and or seen. Moses and Elijah are described as the two men, and they have witnessed on Christ telling them about His soon departure, (death) then seen His resurrection and ascension. God also has their bodies.

 

[Marilyn C]

Right, but how does this answer my question. After what you described here occurs we all are caught up to meet Christ in the air, right? So, my question is why do we meet Him in the air only to then be taken to heaven? Why not just meet Him in heaven rather than in the air after the dead in Christ are raised?


And why can't they just be caught up there directly rather than meeting Him in the air first? You continue to not answer that question.

We are caught up to meet the Lord in the air and be connected to our Head. If we went to heaven first, (by way of angels) then you would have part of the Body changed but not connected to the Head. The Body of Christ needs to be whole with the Head and then move to their appointed thrones.

 

[Truth7t7]

Is there anything in that passage that tells you its a parable?

Are sheep/goats going to be literally judged "No" its a parable of the GWTJ spoken to herdsmen

It's standard knowledge and teaching throughout biblical studies that Matthew 25:31-46 is a parable