The seventh seal opened and Revelation unfolds

[Douggg]

The mount of Olives event is the 6th Seal.

Pretty close to it. The sixth seal event (the sign of the Son of man in heaven) takes place 45 days before the mount of Olives event (Jesus coming in power and great glory).

Armageddon in Revelation 19 is after the 42 months. Revelation 19 is not Zechariah 14.

Why not, in your opinion?

 

[Timtofly]

Needless to say, all of the seventieth week has already been fulfilled

No, because Jesus has yet to return to the Mount of Olives and set up the Prince part on a throne for 1,000 years. The Millennium starts once the 70th week is brought to a close.

The cut off part was to give the time of the fulness of the Gentiles. Yes, the Cross was the midst of the 70th week. You waste the last half on zilch. No king sat on a throne post the demolished Herod Temple complex including the Antonio Fortress for the Gentile Romans.

The Cross was not the "cut off" just the implication of the Finished Atonement. Cut off implies the death, burial, and Resurrection. But the Resurrection Finished the entirety of the Messiah part of the 70th week. Jesus has yet to finish the King part of the Prince half of the 70th week. The week was cut off.

The nations were not called against Jerusalem in 30AD. Not even in 70AD. Jesus did not split the mount of Olives and rule as King for 1,000 years, and then hand all of creation back to God. Revelation 11:15 has not happened.

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

Your historicism is the fulness of the Gentiles. It has been an ongoing phenomenon since 30AD, with no change in the "cut off" status. The 70th week is not over until the 7th Trumpet stops sounding. The 70th week was not cut off for Jesus. It was cut off for the fulness of the Gentiles.

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:"

The reason was never given. It was not:

"and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

That is not the reason for the cut off. Jesus is still the Prince to come. The Jews still destroyed their own lives and Jerusalem by revolting against Rome. They still payed the price of:

"When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified."

Rome was absolved even if they were the "blunt sword that ended the Jews". The Jews themselves demanded that God would bring vengeance on the next few generations.

The 70th week was half finished in 30AD. The Second Coming brings the King to earth to complete the 70th week. That completion is the time between the 6th Seal and the days of the 7th Trumpet.

 

[Timtofly]

Pretty close to it. The sixth seal event (the sign of the Son of man in heaven) takes place 45 days before the mount of Olives event (Jesus coming in power and great glory).


Why not, in your opinion?

Jesus never said there are 45 days between the sign and the Second Coming: Matthew 24:30-31

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Revelation 6:12-14

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

The angels and Jesus come to earth at the same time. There is not a 45 day "time stamp" in these Second Coming references.

Even in Matthew 25:31

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"

No 45 day wait period.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

No, because Jesus has yet to return to the Mount of Olives and set up the Prince part on a throne for 1,000 years. The Millennium starts once the 70th week is brought to a close.

The cut off part was to give the time of the fulness of the Gentiles. Yes, the Cross was the midst of the 70th week. You waste the last half on zilch. No king sat on a throne post the demolished Herod Temple complex including the Antonio Fortress for the Gentile Romans.

The Cross was not the "cut off" just the implication of the Finished Atonement. Cut off implies the death, burial, and Resurrection. But the Resurrection Finished the entirety of the Messiah part of the 70th week. Jesus has yet to finish the King part of the Prince half of the 70th week. The week was cut off.

The nations were not called against Jerusalem in 30AD. Not even in 70AD. Jesus did not split the mount of Olives and rule as King for 1,000 years, and then hand all of creation back to God. Revelation 11:15 has not happened.

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

Your historicism is the fulness of the Gentiles. It has been an ongoing phenomenon since 30AD, with no change in the "cut off" status. The 70th week is not over until the 7th Trumpet stops sounding. The 70th week was not cut off for Jesus. It was cut off for the fulness of the Gentiles.

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:"

The reason was never given. It was not:

"and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

That is not the reason for the cut off. Jesus is still the Prince to come. The Jews still destroyed their own lives and Jerusalem by revolting against Rome. They still payed the price of:

"When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified."

Rome was absolved even if they were the "blunt sword that ended the Jews". The Jews themselves demanded that God would bring vengeance on the next few generations.

The 70th week was half finished in 30AD. The Second Coming brings the King to earth to complete the 70th week. That completion is the time between the 6th Seal and the days of the 7th Trumpet.

Show us where it says Jesus returns to the Mount of Olives and set up the Prince part on a throne for 1,000 years in Daniel 9:25-27! You're making that up.

 

[Douggg]

Jesus never said there are 45 days between the sign and the Second Coming: Matthew 24:30-31

You are right that Jesus did not say that in Matthew 24:30-31. It is a calculated amount between the 1335 days and the 1290 days relevant to when the abomination of desolation image is first setup.

The 45 days is the time the kings of the earth are given to assemble their armies at Armageddon in their hope of stopping Jesus from coming and executing judgement on them. They will even go so far as to take half of Jerusalem as hostages in Zechariah 14:2, in their vain attempt to keep Jesus from executing judgment on them.

"Why do the heathen rage and imagine a vain thing..." from Psalms 2.

 

[Timtofly]

Show us where it says Jesus returns to the Mount of Olives and set up the Prince part on a throne for 1,000 years in Daniel 9:25-27! You're making that up.

Show me in Daniel 9:25-27 where it says the first century ended the 70th week.

 

[Timtofly]

The 45 days is the time the kings of the earth are given to assemble their armies at Armageddon in their hope of stopping Jesus from coming and executing judgement on them. They will even go so far as to take half of Jerusalem as hostages in Zechariah 14:2, in their vain attempt to keep Jesus from executing judgment on them.

Jesus does not come to Jerusalem in Revelation 19. Satan has already been controlling the earth from Jerusalem for 42 months. The battle in Revelation 19 is 60 miles from Jerusalem in the valley of Megiddo.

Satan already has control of Jerusalem, there is no hostage situation there. 42 months is not a hostage situation. It was the complete abomination of desolation.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Show me in Daniel 9:25-27 where it says the first century ended the 70th week.

I do believe you meant, where does it affirm the seventieth week ended at the first advent? The syntax affirms it.

In 9:23 Daniel is told to consider the vision to understand the matter.

At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision. (Daniel 9:23)​

In the explanation of the matter that follows, the Hebrew word neḥ·taḵ is translated as determined but more accurately means: to divide. Daniel was instructed to divide seventy weeks from the 2300 evening/mornings to give Daniel’s people and the holy city a final chance to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, etc., etc. Then Daniel is instructed to commence the count at the decree to restore the city, which scholars agree was the final decree in Ezra 6, some 49 years after Cyrus’s first decree.

Point is that Daniel’s people and the holy city were given a final chance of 490 years to take the gospel to the nations but they failed. If they had brought in everlasting righteousness, for example, they would have sent salvation to the nations, but they failed. This we see affirmed in Acts with the stoning of Stephan that, once again, scholars can place at AD 34, fulfilling the final week of the prophecy. After the stoning of Stephen, the disciples scattered and salvation went to the gentiles and the work in Jerusalem ultimately came to an end.

For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. (Galatian 4:25)​

Such an interpretation has overwhelming support in the scriptures as opposed to the futurist gap theory. There is certainly nothing within the context of Daniel 9:25-27 that even remotely conveys Christ's return or any notion of the antichrist. The abominations and desolations in the final verse are ascribed to the defilement of the sanctuary by the Romans that followed on the heal of the final week. Desolations would continue until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled (Luke 21:20-24; Romans 11:25).

 

[Douggg]

Jesus does not come to Jerusalem in Revelation 19. Satan has already been controlling the earth from Jerusalem for 42 months. The battle in Revelation 19 is 60 miles from Jerusalem in the valley of Megiddo.

Satan already has control of Jerusalem, there is no hostage situation there. 42 months is not a hostage situation. It was the complete abomination of desolation.

It is not a 42 months hostage situation, but a couple days by the armies that come from the armageddon gathering location.

Armageddon is the gathering place. The staging location.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

The armies will be so large that they cover a large plain north of Jerusalem. The number of the kings of the east armies will be 200,000,000 on their own.

It is not just foot soldiers, but the entire mechanized force of the armies of the world; tanks, artillery, rocket launchers, missles, eveything they got, plus all the support units to feed everyone.

Those armies are going to move to surround Jerusalem, in Zechariah 14:1-14, and half the city goes into captivity, i.e. taken as hostages.

They come to Jerusalem to support the beast because in Daniel 11:45, that is where the beast is going to make his final stand. In Daniel 8:25, he stands up against the Prince of princes - Jesus. But no-one is going to be able to help him; none of the armies, Satan, no one - from the Lord's judgment on him.

45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

In Acts 1, the disciples were told Jesus would return to the mount of Olives from where He left this world. The mount of Olives overlooks the temple mount.

The destruction of the armies actually takes place over the full length of Israel, in the winepress of God's wrath in Revelation 14.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

 

[Timtofly]

I do believe you meant, where does it affirm the seventieth week ended at the first advent? The syntax affirms it.

In 9:23 Daniel is told to consider the vision to understand the matter.

At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision. (Daniel 9:23)​

In the explanation of the matter that follows, the Hebrew word neḥ·taḵ is translated as determined but more accurately means: to divide. Daniel was instructed to divide seventy weeks from the 2300 evening/mornings to give Daniel’s people and the holy city a final chance to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, etc., etc. Then Daniel is instructed to commence the count at the decree to restore the city, which scholars agree was the final decree in Ezra 6, some 49 years after Cyrus’s first decree.

Point is that Daniel’s people and the holy city were given a final chance of 490 years to take the gospel to the nations but they failed. If they had brought in everlasting righteousness, for example, they would have sent salvation to the nations, but they failed. This we see affirmed in Acts with the stoning of Stephan that, once again, scholars can place at AD 34, fulfilling the final week of the prophecy. After the stoning of Stephen, the disciples scattered and salvation went to the gentiles and the work in Jerusalem ultimately came to an end.

For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. (Galatian 4:25)​

Such an interpretation has overwhelming support in the scriptures as opposed to the futurist gap theory. There is certainly nothing within the context of Daniel 9:25-27 that even remotely conveys Christ's return or any notion of the antichrist. The abominations and desolations in the final verse are ascribed to the defilement of the sanctuary by the Romans that followed on the heal of the final week. Desolations would continue until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled (Luke 21:20-24; Romans 11:25).

So the promise was only abomination and desolation? That is your fulfillment?

 

[Timtofly]

It is not a 42 months hostage situation, but a couple days by the armies that come from the armageddon gathering location.

Armageddon is the gathering place. The staging location.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

The armies will be so large that they cover a large plain north of Jerusalem. The number of the kings of the east armies will be 200,000,000 on their own.

It is not just foot soldiers, but the entire mechanized force of the armies of the world; tanks, artillery, rocket launchers, missles, eveything they got, plus all the support units to feed everyone.

Satan is defending Jerusalem. The temple and throne have already been built by Jesus over 42 months prior to Armageddon. Why would Jesus destroy His own throne the second time?

The battle is 60 miles from Jerusalem, and Jerusalem is not destroyed at Armageddon.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

So the promise was only abomination and desolation? That is your fulfillment?

Were do you get "promise"? The prophecy primarily pertains to a division of the 2300 evening/mornings to give Daniel's people and the holy city one final chance under the Aaronic mediation; it is primarily a determination. It was a demonstration of the weakness of that mediation. It was a demonstration that only under Christ's mediation and through the vehicle of the Church would Israel be saved. The evidence that their house was left desolate and their chance ended with the stoning of Stephan on the last year of the seventieth week affirms the prophecy is a first advent phenomenon and not a second. Desolations would continue until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled (Luke 21:20-24; Romans 11:25). Only at the end of the 2300 evening/mornings would the sanctuary be cleansed.

 

[Timtofly]

Were do you get "promise"? The prophecy primarily pertains to a division of the 2300 evening/mornings to give Daniel's people and the holy city one final chance under the Aaronic mediation; it is primarily a determination. It was a demonstration of the weakness of that mediation. It was a demonstration that only under Christ's mediation and through the vehicle of the Church would Israel be saved. The evidence that their house was left desolate and their chance ended with the stoning of Stephan on the last year of the seventieth week affirms the prophecy is a first advent phenomenon and not a second. Desolations would continue until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled (Luke 21:20-24; Romans 11:25).

So your gap is not a gap, but not a promise either? You just said desolation would continue until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Now prove the time of the Gentiles was fulfilled in 34AD.

Daniel 9:25-27 is about the promise of 70 weeks in verse 24. So far you have pointed out Daniel 9:23 and Daniel 9:25-27. What about Daniel 9:24?

The point is that only Jesus could restore Israel, not that Israel would eventually, some day fail. They had already failed from the point they left Egypt with Moses, until they had spent almost 70 years in Babylonian captivity. They would continue to fail forever. The only time Israel would not fail, was when Jesus was King of Israel.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

So your gap is not a gap, but not a promise either? You just said desolation would continue until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Now prove the time of the Gentiles was fulfilled in 34AD.

Daniel 9:25-27 is about the promise of 70 weeks in verse 24. So far you have pointed out Daniel 9:23 and Daniel 9:25-27. What about Daniel 9:24?

The point is that only Jesus could restore Israel, not that Israel would eventually, some day fail. They had already failed from the point they left Egypt with Moses, until they had spent almost 70 years in Babylonian captivity. They would continue to fail forever. The only time Israel would not fail, was when Jesus was King of Israel.

There is no gap. And there is no promise in verse 24; it says a determination, not a promise. You need to check your dictionary before you try and teach someone. 490 were determined and fulfilled when they failed. A determination conveys a test, not a promise.

And desolations will continue until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled. I never state anywhere the time of the Gentiles was fulfilled in AD 34. I stated it commenced, according to Luke 21:24. You need to read more carefully. Point is the holy city and the people were given 490 years to show righteousness but they failed at then end of the determination.

Again, the seventy weeks was a demonstration of the weakness of that mediation. It was a demonstration that only under Christ's mediation and through the vehicle of the Church would Israel be saved.

 

[Douggg]

Satan is defending Jerusalem. The temple and throne have already been built by Jesus over 42 months prior to Armageddon. Why would Jesus destroy His own throne the second time?

I don't know where you come with that notion, Tim, of Jesus having already built the temple and throne on the temple mount, 42 month prior to Armageddon.

Satan will be on the temple mount, when Jesus returns, but not to defend Jerusalem, but to defend his own self from judgment.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

But you are using something (the messiah's ministry) that is not referred to in Daniel, to argue that the 70th week has been already fulfilled, at least partially.

Where is Jesus riding into Jerusalem on a donkey referenced in Daniel? It's not. So, you can't say that it can't be referring to the beginning of His ministry just because it doesn't specifically refer to His ministry there. It also doesn't specifically refer to Him riding into Jerusalem on a donkey, but you still conclude that is what "unto the Messiah the Prince" is referring to.

So, it was pretty silly of you to disregard Jerry's interpretation just because it doesn't specifically say what he believes it's referring to when it also doesn't specifically say what you believe it's referring to, either.

 

[Douggg]

So, it was pretty silly of you to disregard Jerry's interpretation just because it doesn't specifically say what he believes it's referring to when it also doesn't specifically say what you believe it's referring to, either.

The difference is.... I already addressed in my post #74.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The difference is.... I already addressed in my post #74.

You addressed it in a completely unconvincing way. Can you humble yourself and acknowledge that Daniel 9:25 does not explicitly tell us what "unto the Messiah the Prince" is referring to exactly?

We all have our opinions on what it's referring to based on our understanding of the prophecy as a whole, but what "unto the Messiah" means is not explicitly stated within the prophecy itself.

 

[Douggg]

You addressed it in a completely unconvincing way. Can you humble yourself and acknowledge that Daniel 9:25 does not explicitly tell us what "unto the Messiah the Prince" is referring to exactly?

That the 62 weeks are unto messiah in verse 25, and that he is cutoff after 62 weeks in verse 26a - indicates that his arrival and his being cutoff are almost simultaneous.

Jesus arrived as the anointed, the King of Israel coming in the name of the Lord, in John 12:12-15, riding riding into Jerusalem on the donkey in verses 14-15.

Four days later, Jesus was crucified, cutoff.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

That the 62 weeks are unto messiah in verse 25, and that he is cutoff after 62 weeks in verse 26a - indicates that his arrival and his being cutoff are almost simultaneous.

No, it does not. How are you coming up with that? You're acting like it says He would be cut off immediately after the 62 weeks, but it doesn't say that. After means some time after and does not imply immediately or very shortly after.

Jesus arrived as the anointed, the King of Israel coming in the name of the Lord, in John 12:12-15, riding riding into Jerusalem on the donkey in verses 14-15.

Where does Daniel 9 reference that? It doesn't. That's my point. Are you even trying to get the point?