The seventh seal opened and Revelation unfolds

[Douggg]

Right, after the 69th week the Messiah's ministry commenced

You are making things up, Jerry.

The messiah's ministry is not mentioned in Daniel 9:25-27.

 

[Douggg]

click on the picture to enlarge it.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

You are making things up, Jerry.

The messiah's ministry is not mentioned in Daniel 9:25-27.

This is from a futurist website that acknowledges that the "Messiah Prince" in Daniel 9:25 is Christ, as many translations affirm:

UNTIL MESSIAH THE PRINCE

• John 1:41; 4:25
• Da 8:11,25; Isaiah 9:6; 55:4; Micah 5:2; Acts 3:15; 5:31; Revelation 1:5; 19:16

Other Translations: Messiah the Leader (Young's Literal), the Anointed One, a Prince (Amplified), Christ the Prince (English of Greek Septuagint), the Anointed One, the ruler (NIV), an anointed prince (NRSV), an Anointed Prince (NJB), God's chosen leader (TEV), the appointed leader (NCV), one who is anointed and a leader (NAB), a prince, on whom the holy oil has been put (BBE)...

Although the opinions are nearly unanimous among evangelical conservative scholars that this phrase is a clear prophetic reference to the first coming of the Messiah, it must be kept in mind (especially if discussing this passage with someone who may not believe in the literal interpretation of Scripture) that there are some who will see the prophecy as fulfilled in the lives of other individuals (click here to see why some Bible versions also do not support the Messianic interpretation). [emphasis added]
Daniel 9:25 Commentary | Precept Austin
​

Now you have gone to making things up to denial of true exegesis.

​

 

[Douggg]

This is from a futurist website that acknowledges that the "Messiah Prince" in Daniel 9:25 is Christ, as many translations affirm:

Jerry, I was not disagreeing that Daniel 9:25 is referring to the arrival of Jesus the messiah.

What I am saying that you are making up is that the messiah's ministry is referred to Daniel 9:25-27.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Jerry, I was not disagreeing that Daniel 9:25 is referring to the arrival of Jesus the messiah.

What I am saying that you are making up is that the messiah's ministry is referred to Daniel 9:25-27.

The context is the first advent, his ministry. Christ, the "Messiah" is not "cut off" when he returns, at his second advent. He is "cut off" at his first advent, in the midst of the week, 3 1/2 years after his ministry. The Romans defile the sanctuary at this time. And God punishes the city and the shepherd according to prophecy by sending his army against them, which is relayed in the parable of the wedding feast (Matthew 22:1-14).

When one neglects context one is apt to make things up, which is the bane of futurism.

 

[Douggg]

He is "cut off" at his first advent, in the midst of the week, 3 1/2 years after his ministry.

The messiah is cutoff after the 69 weeks (7+62) in Daniel 9:26, not after 69 1/2 weeks. NOT 69 1/2 weeks.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The part you are also making up that is not is Daniel 9 is any mention of the messiah's ministry. Messiah's ministry is NEVER mentioned in Daniel 9.

____________________________________________

What actually happened to fulfill Daniel 9:25 and Daniel 9:26a regarding the messiah.....

Jesus arrived in Jerusalem, riding the donkey, hailed as the messiah King of Israel who comes in the name of the Lord. In John 12:12-15.
Fulfilling Daniel 9:25

4 days later Jesus was crucified. Fulfilling Daniel 9:26a

40 years later, the Romans destroyed the temple and city. Fulfilling Daniel 9:26b

In the near future - the prince who shall come, the little horn of the vision Gabriel referred to for John to consider in Daniel 9:23 will confirm the Mount Sinai covenant for 7 years in Daniel 9:27a. The 7 years comes from a requirement Moses made of all future leaders of Israel back in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

Then in the middle of the 7 years in Daniel 9:27b, the little horn stops the daily sacrifice and commits the transgression of desolation act of Daniel 8:13.

Then afterward at the end of the 7 years, the little horn person attempts to stand up against the Prince of princes - Jesus. Daniel 8:25. Which in Revelation 19, as the beast, the little horn person, will be cast into the lake of fire, at Jesus's return. Fulfilling Daniel 8:25.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

The messiah is cutoff after the 69 weeks (7+62) in Daniel 9:26, not after 69 1/2 weeks. NOT 69 1/2 weeks.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The part you are also making up that is not is Daniel 9 is any mention of the messiah's ministry. Messiah's ministry is NEVER mentioned in Daniel 9.

____________________________________________

What actually happened to fulfill Daniel 9:25 and Daniel 9:26a regarding the messiah.....

Jesus arrived in Jerusalem, riding the donkey, hailed as the messiah King of Israel who comes in the name of the Lord. In John 12:12-15.
Fulfilling Daniel 9:25

4 days later Jesus was crucified. Fulfilling Daniel 9:26a

40 years later, the Romans destroyed the temple and city. Fulfilling Daniel 9:26b

In the near future - the prince who shall come, the little horn of the vision Gabriel referred to for John to consider in Daniel 9:23 will confirm the Mount Sinai covenant for 7 years in Daniel 9:27a. The 7 years comes from a requirement Moses made of all future leaders of Israel back in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

Then in the middle of the 7 years in Daniel 9:27b, the little horn stops the daily sacrifice and commits the transgression of desolation act of Daniel 8:13.

Then afterward at the end of the 7 years, the little horn person attempts to stand up against the Prince of princes - Jesus. Daniel 8:25. Which in Revelation 19, as the beast, the little horn person, will be cast into the lake of fire, at Jesus's return. Fulfilling Daniel 8:25.

Daniel 9:25 tells that Christ came after the sixty-ninth week, which you have conceded. I don't have to make anything up to interpret that he came to minister at the beginning of the seventieth week.

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.​

Now we can't have his ministry end on the sixty-ninth week cause that would be absurd. You conceded Christ doesn't make his appearance prior to that. Christ's ministry began at the opening of the seventieth week, and any expositor worth his weight in salt knows it lasted 3 1/2 years and then he was crucified. Actually that is what is conveyed in verse 27. This is what the epistle to the Hebrews relates to Christ giving his life as a ransom for many.

Hebrew 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.​

Where you have to make up that the antichrist will cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, historicists have the Holy Scriptures to guide them to come to the proper interpretation that Christ's ministry caused these things to cease by his death. They lost there lawful standing when Christ took away the first covenant to establish the second.

Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

​

 

[Douggg]

Daniel 9:25 tells that Christ came after the sixty-ninth week, which you have conceded. I don't have to make anything up to interpret that he came to minister at the beginning of the seventieth week.

Jerry, you are making up that Daniel 9 has it in reference to the messiah's ministry.

Daniel 9:27 is about fulfillment of the vision that Gabriel told John to consider in Daniel 9:23. Which is about the little horn person in the time of the end. Who gets destroyed when Jesus returns.

________________________________________________________

Historists have no idea of what the vision is that both Daniel and Gabriel were referring to in Daniel 9:21-23 and its fulfillment. They also have no idea that Moses made a requirement for future leader of Israel to confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant on a 7 year cycle, in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Jerry, you are making up that Daniel 9 has it in reference to the messiah's ministry.

Daniel 9:27 is about fulfillment of the vision that Gabriel told John to consider in Daniel 9:23. Which is about the little horn person in the time of the end. Who gets destroyed when Jesus returns.

________________________________________________________

Historists have no idea of what the vision is that both Daniel and Gabriel were referring to in Daniel 9:21-23 and its fulfillment. They also have no idea that Moses made a requirement for future leader of Israel to confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant on a 7 year cycle, in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

Daniel 9 does not give every detail about Christ's first appearance. Christ is spoken of in thousands of places in the OT with only limited details in each. This is what makes your assertion that Daniel 9 doesn't mention his ministry absurd. We have to draw on all scripture to interpret what Christ's first advent concerned. Of course Daniel 9:25-27pertain to his ministry according to Matthew 20:28. But no where does it say the antichrist takes away the sacrifice and oblation during the seventieth week. That is a made-up theory.

Daniel 8 is clear that the little horn that causes all the havoc comes up out of one of the four horns of the goat in verse 9, which is revealed as the Greek empire in verse 21. More appropriately, the little horn comes out of one of the four kingdoms Alexander's empire was divided into. In the latter time of these four kingdoms, according to verse 23. It stands up against Christ and is broken without hands in verse 25 and in conformity with Daniel 2:34.

That would make the little horn an entity with great longevity, and not a mere man, because it is cast into the lake of fire in Revelations 19. This fits perfectly with the historicist interpretation that the little horn is the papacy, which was given its power, seat, and great authority by the Roman Empire and is still with us today. And it agrees with the proper interpretation that the 2300 evening/mornings are 2300 years, ending in 1844.

Remember, context, context if you want to teach!

 

[Douggg]

This is what makes your assertion that Daniel 9 doesn't mention his ministry absurd. We have to draw on all scripture to interpret what Christ's first advent concerned.

But you are using something (the messiah's ministry) that is not referred to in Daniel, to argue that the 70th week has been already fulfilled, at least partially.

At the same time disregarding the vision that both Daniel and Gabriel referred to in Daniel 9:21-23.

1844 was not time of the end, Jerry. We are living in the time of the end.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

But you are using something (the messiah's ministry) that is not referred to in Daniel, to argue that the 70th week has been already fulfilled, at least partially.

At the same time disregarding the vision that both Daniel and Gabriel referred to in Daniel 9:21-23.

1844 was not time of the end, Jerry. We are living in the time of the end.

As I stated, Christ is spoken of in thousands of places in the OT with only limited details in each. This is what makes your assertion that Daniel 9 doesn't mention his ministry absurd. We have to draw on all scripture to interpret what Christ's first advent concerned. Of course Daniel 9:25-27pertain to his ministry according to Matthew 20:28. But no where does it say the antichrist takes away the sacrifice and oblation during the seventieth week. That is a made-up theory.

Deal with the evidence in Daniel 8 about the little horn, which shows that your doctrine is fit for the fire.

 

[Douggg]

As I stated, Christ is spoken of in thousands of places in the OT with only limited details in each. This is what makes your assertion that Daniel 9 doesn't mention his ministry absurd. We have to draw on all scripture to interpret what Christ's first advent concerned. Of course Daniel 9:25-27pertain to his ministry according to Matthew 20:28.

If Daniel 9 contained in it reference to the messiah's ministry, you would have copied and pasted that verse and underlined ministry.

But you have not done that, because you cannot.

Deal with the evidence in Daniel 8 about the little horn, which shows that your doctrine is fit for the fire.

Jerry, it will not be my assertion about the little horn that will go up in smoke, but your's. 1844, really, Jerry, as time of the end?

Jerry, are you SDA ?

 

[Jerryhuerta]

If Daniel 9 contained in it reference to the messiah's ministry, you would have copied and pasted that verse and underlined ministry.

But you have not done that, because you cannot.

Jerry, it will not be my assertion about the little horn that will go up in smoke, but your's. 1844, really, Jerry, as time of the end?

Jerry, are you SDA ?

Hey Doug, concerning Daniel 25 you wrote:

“Jesus arrived in Jerusalem, riding the donkey…”​

Where does it state that in Daniel 25-27? Copy and paste that for me! I can play that silly game too, Doug. You’re making that up to fit your square peg in a round hole. And Jesus arriving in Jerusalem at the first advent IS part of his ministry.

But nowhere does it say the antichrist takes away the sacrifice and oblation during the seventieth week. That is a made-up theory.

As to the 2300 evening/mornings, its determination has to consider the little horn that comes up out of one of the four horns of the goat in verse 9, which is revealed as the Greek empire in verse 21. More appropriately, the little horn comes out of one of the four kingdoms Alexander's empire was divided into. In the latter time of these four kingdoms, according to verse 23. It stands up against Christ and is broken without hands in verse 25 and in conformity with Daniel 2:34.

You’re trying to side-step all this too because it doesn’t support your gap theory for the seventieth week and that the antichrist is a person.

And as for the interpretation that the 2300 evening/mornings represents years, that interpretation goes back to the Protestants in the seventieth century long before the SDAs.

Protestants varied widely on Daniel but many agreed in the day-year hermeneutic and succeeded in moving many away from interpreting the little horn as Antiochus Epiphanes. In 1646, Thomas Parker, in his publication, The Visions and Prophecies of Daniel Expounded, looked for the end of all things to be about 1859 based on the prophetic periods and rendering the papacy as the little horn. Samuel Hutchinson, the father of Anne Hutchinson, sent letters in 1659 to a friend (that were ultimately published) holding that the twenty-three hundred days-years had “not yet run out.” Cotton Mather in 1693 cited a contemporary, Thomas Beverley, who applied the day year hermeneutic to the twenty-three hundred days. For centuries, numerous works were published that held the day-year principle that maintained recapitulation in Daniel 8–9. In 1878, Henry Grattan Guinness published The Approaching End of the Age, which applied the day-year hermeneutic to the twenty-three hundred evenings-mornings and calculated their commencement from the “the restored national existence, and ritual worship of the Jews,” which Sir Isaac Newton had calculated.

In truth, the SDAs have misrepresented the 2300 evening/mornings with their investigative judgment doctrine. I am happy I'm not an SDA. And I'm happy I'm not a futurist, too.

 

[Douggg]

Hey Doug, concerning Daniel 25 you wrote:

“Jesus arrived in Jerusalem, riding the donkey…”
Where does it state that in Daniel 25-27? Copy and paste that for me! I can play that silly game too, Doug.

The difference is in Daniel 9:25 it is "unto messiah"....

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

... and the verse about riding the donkey is part of the "unto messiah" arriving in Jerusalem, as the messiah, King of Israel, who comes in the name of the Lord.

john 12:12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,

13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

14 And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,

15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

The difference is in Daniel 9:25 it is "unto messiah"....

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

... and the verse about riding the donkey is part of the "unto messiah" arriving in Jerusalem, as the messiah, King of Israel, who comes in the name of the Lord.

john 12:12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,

13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

14 And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,

15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.

Daniel 9:25 doesn’t state anything of the sort; your interpretation is a contrivance to suit your gap theory. If Daniel 9:25 excludes any part of Christ’s ministry then the prophecy is flawed. Christ was publicly announced as the Messiah at his baptism by John (Matthew 3) and if this event was within the sixty-ninth week then the phrase “unto the Messiah” becomes meaningless.

And nowhere does it say the antichrist takes away the sacrifice and oblation during the seventieth week. That is a made-up theory.

 

[Douggg]

But nowhere does it say the antichrist takes away the sacrifice and oblation during the seventieth week. That is a made-up theory.

The "He" in Daniel 9:27 is the prince who shall come. It is not the messiah, because, other wise, the prince who shall come has no stated purpose for appearing in the text.

That the prince who shall come is the coming Antichrist is not stated in the text, I agree.

To seal-up the vision (and prophecy) which Garbriel told Daniel to consider... is in the text.


24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Do you believe that there is any unfulfilled prophecy still left - such as, Jesus's Return ?

The 70 weeks will be complete when the vision about the little horn, and prophecy are fulfilled.

In truth, the SDAs have misrepresented the 2300 evening/mornings with their investigative judgment doctrine. I am happy I'm not an SDA. And I'm happy I'm not a futurist, too.

1844 was the year of the Great Disappointment to SDA (I think they were called Millerites back then, I don't recall for certain).

 

[Douggg]

Daniel 9:25 doesn’t state anything of the sort; your interpretation is a contrivance to suit your gap theory.

Jerry, "unto" the Messiah is right in the text.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

 

[Douggg]

Christ was publicly announced as the Messiah at his baptism by John (Matthew 3) and if this event was within the sixty-ninth week then the phrase “unto the Messiah” becomes meaningless.

Jesus was not baptized in Jerusalem, but in the Jordan river in the wilderness.

Unto messiah is unto he arrives in Jeruslem because the 70 weeks are determined upon both Daniel's people, the Jews, and Jerusalem.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Jesus was not baptized in Jerusalem, but in the Jordan river in the wilderness.

Unto messiah is unto he arrives in Jeruslem because the 70 weeks are determined upon both Daniel's people, the Jews, and Jerusalem.

You neglect that the seventy weeks determined on Daniel’s people include the Anointing of the Highest, which is fulfilled by John’s baptism of Christ. It is this event that guarantees the prophecy, makes it sure, or seals it. No doubt, it is in how “unto the Messiah” must be interpreted.

I’ve already revealed to you that the epistle to the Hebrews affirms that Christ’s crucifixion ended the lawful standing of the sacrificial and oblation system, which is conveyed in verse 27 as causing the sacrifice and oblation to cease. There is every reason to interpret the “he” in Daniel 27 as the Messiah, while interpreting it as the antichrist becomes blasphemous.

As I already stated, the interpretation that the 2300 evening/mornings are years, not days (just as the seventy-weeks) predates the Millerite movement. He merely built upon previous expositors.

 

[Douggg]

You neglect that the seventy weeks determined on Daniel’s people include the Anointing of the Highest, which is fulfilled by John’s baptism of Christ. It is this event that guarantees the prophecy, makes it sure, or seals it. No doubt, it is in how “unto the Messiah” must be interpreted.

The anointing of the most holy took place in preparation for Jesus's burial - the messiah cutoff.

Matthew26:12 For in that she hath poured this ointment on my body, she did it for my burial.

13 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.

________________________________________________

The prophecy of the 70 weeks is not sealed until Jesus returns.


The little horn person is time of the end. 1844 was not time of the end.