The seventh seal opened and Revelation unfolds

[Timtofly]

Ridiculous! Christ is giving us his testimony in the Olivet Discourse of how to interpret Daniel 8, 9, 11 and 12. You simply can't handle the truth.

Exactly Jesus is Messiah and Prince. Christ and King. The Second Coming is the King part of Daniel 9. That is the truth.

Do you not accept a future rule of Jesus on earth for 1,000 years? That is 3500 years. Times, time, and half a time. 500 years between Daniel and the Cross. 2,000 years between the Cross and the Second Coming. Then the 1,000 year reign of Christ as King for the last 1,000 years.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Exactly Jesus is Messiah and Prince. Christ and King. The Second Coming is the King part of Daniel 9. That is the truth.

Do you not accept a future rule of Jesus on earth for 1,000 years? That is 3500 years. Times, time, and half a time. 500 years between Daniel and the Cross. 2,000 years between the Cross and the Second Coming. Then the 1,000 year reign of Christ as King for the last 1,000 years.

Your trying to sidestep Christ's testimony in the Olivet Discourse of how to interpret Daniel 8, 9, 11 and 12. You simply can't handle the truth.

 

[Timtofly]

Tim, where are getting that Jesus returns and builds a temple on the temple mount in Jerusalem, with his throne - and then afterward the great tribulation begins?

Why isn't it the Jews, who have been wanting to rebuild the temple, are the ones who rebuild the temple, that the Antichrist will eventually desecrate?

Where does it say any one other than Jesus builds His throne and temple?

There is no mention of a FP, nor AC until Revelation 13 after the 7th Trumpet. Even the Temple is mentioned before Revelation 13.

 

[Timtofly]

Your trying to sidestep Christ's testimony in the Olivet Discourse of how to interpret Daniel 8, 9, 11 and 12. You simply can't handle the truth.

I understand the OD sufficiently. You totally ignore Revelation and John's witness, who saw the unfolding of the Second Coming live, and in person.

 

[Douggg]

Where does it say any one other than Jesus builds His throne and temple?

It doesn't say that Jesus builds the temple that John was told to measure in Revelation 11.

Since it was the Jews who built the first two temples, and that a third temple is most desirous by them, and that they have organizations especially for that purpose - it would stand to reason that they are the ones to build the temple that John was told to measure in Revelation 11.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

I understand the OD sufficiently. You totally ignore Revelation and John's witness, who saw the unfolding of the Second Coming live, and in person.

Obviously you don't. Your trying to sidestep Christ's testimony in the Olivet Discourse of how to interpret Daniel 8, 9, 11 and 12. You simply can't handle the truth.

 

[Timtofly]

It doesn't say that Jesus builds the temple that John was told to measure in Revelation 11.

Since it was the Jews who built the first two temples, and that a third temple is most desirous by them, and that they have organizations especially for that purpose - it would stand to reason that they are the ones to build the temple that John was told to measure in Revelation 11.

The problem with that is Zechariah 14 declares, Jesus will split Jerusalem into several parts. Anything built prior to the Second Coming in the 6th Seal will be completely obliterated, no stone left on top of any stone. Even the foundation will be gone. Since Jesus is already present, and it is His throne and Temple, it is safe to say He is in charge of the building after rearranging Jerusalem itself. Remember there is a new river flowing out of the city in two directions?

This is where Satan will rule from if he is allowed 42 months.

 

[Timtofly]

Obviously you don't. Your trying to sidestep Christ's testimony in the Olivet Discourse of how to interpret Daniel 8, 9, 11 and 12. You simply can't handle the truth.

That is the third time you just assume your ideology is sound. You have yet to even reconcile Daniel with the OD and Revelation. Daniel is way more obscure than Jesus and John.

 

[Douggg]

The problem with that is Zechariah 14 declares, Jesus will split Jerusalem into several parts.

Tim, what bible translation are you using? And please copy and paste the verses that you referring to.

 

[Timtofly]

Tim, what bible translation are you using? And please copy and paste the verses that you referring to.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

King James

 

[Douggg]

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

King James

Tim, those verses don't say that the city of Jerusalem will be split into several parts as you are suggesting, when you wrote....

"The problem with that is Zechariah 14 declares, Jesus will split Jerusalem into several parts. Anything built prior to the Second Coming in the 6th Seal will be completely obliterated, no stone left on top of any stone."

And certainly does not indicate that anything (the temple the Jews will soon build which the Antichrist will desecrate) built prior to Second Coming will be completely obliterated, no stone left on top of any stone.

Jesus will split the Mount of olives in half, creating a valley for escape of the Jews, in verse 2.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

 

[eclipsenow]

The repeating seven’s in Revelation trace 4 themes. Let's check out the structure. They're to be read along-side each other - not sequentially like some sort of future timeline but as 4 different descriptions of the history of the last 2000 years (and counting) until the Lord returns, all from 4 different themes or perspectives.

7 SEALs depicting TYRANNY (then back to the beginning to describe)…

7 TRUMPETS depicting CHAOS in nature (then back to the beginning to describe)...

7 SIGNS depicting PERSECUTION (then back to the beginning to describe)...

7 PLAGUES depicting DESTRUCTION. Note how one cycle emerges out of the last event in the previous cycle. Each cycle ends with Judgement Day, meaning these sequences of 7 (symbolic of God's perfect number of judgements) cover between Jesus Resurrection and his Return. The sequences don't end neatly, with the last thing in each 7 happening neatly. Rather, the next sequences emerges out of and part of the previous sequence. For example, note how in Revelation 8 the action of the Seventh Seal doesn't happen until after we get introduced to the next Seven - the Trumpets.

EG: "8 When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them."

Then the action of the Seventh Seal happens and the censer is poured and it sounds an awful lot like the beginnings of Judgement Day.

Again - these sequences emerge out of each other - they're not linear, but congruent - happening alongside each other and describing the same period.

What are the trumpets about? Note how they are similar to the plagues in Exodus. The chaos in nature echoes at least 5 of the curses on Egypt. The first 5 trumpets are terrible HAIL, BLOOD, POISONED WATER, DARKNESS and DEMON LOCUSTS.

Plagues of Egypt - Wikipedia

And just like Pharaoh in Egypt, the subject of this text - the nations - do not repent. This is important - the punchline is coming!

But then we see these important symbols of the temple - where the inside is measured (which is symbolic of its protection and safety - see Zechariah 2) and the outside isn't measured. Then the outside is trampled! What does this mean? The temple is God's people. 1 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 3:6, 1 Peter 2:4-5). While our true self is secure in Christ - the outside of us (our bodies) might get trampled and destroyed. As the Bible Project says - this 'external defeat' (outside of the temple being destroyed) 'cannot take away our victory in the Lamb.'

The same idea is then represented in two lampstands which we saw earlier in Revelation was the 7 churches. The two witnesses / lampstands are killed - but then raised and vindicated and then people DO REPENT!

Conclusion: The trumpets are awful natural disasters warning us that this world is not right with God and not OK. They themselves however will not lead people to repent. We must do our job in these tough times and share the gospel - or they have no hope of repenting. And if we die in the meantime, especially in loving service of God, it will help people see the gospel clearly. Then they will repent. For more try the Bible Project - It's good to see this is now over 5 million views.

 

[Douggg]

Then the action of the Seventh Seal happens and the censer is poured and it sounds an awful lot like the beginnings of Judgement Day.

Are you aware the term "judgement" is not found in the kjv? So where are you coming up with "Judgment Day" ?

The trumpets and the vials are judgements of God to take place during the great tribulation.

I would called the Seventh Seal opened begins the judgements to take place during the great tribulation (in lieu of Judgement Day).

Revelation 16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

 

[Timtofly]

Tim, those verses don't say that the city of Jerusalem will be split into several parts as you are suggesting, when you wrote....

"The problem with that is Zechariah 14 declares, Jesus will split Jerusalem into several parts. Anything built prior to the Second Coming in the 6th Seal will be completely obliterated, no stone left on top of any stone."

And certainly does not indicate that anything (the temple the Jews will soon build which the Antichrist will desecrate) built prior to Second Coming will be completely obliterated, no stone left on top of any stone.

Jesus will split the Mount of olives in half, creating a valley for escape of the Jews, in verse 2.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Explain how a new river going in two directions out of Jerusalem is not caused by such a split? Explain how only the mount of Olives is affected and Jerusalem is not, even though they are side by side. Explain why the current dome of the rock can still stand in Jerusalem if Jesus is the sole King and His throne and Temple take center stage.

To say Jerusalem is untouched would be more of a miracle than to say no stone unturned in such a geological event.

John in Revelation 6 indicates all the continents will be moved out of their current locations, as well as every single mountain chain. And they are not moving further apart.

If God is moving them, it will be back to one single continent. Where the mountains end up is any one's guess. Even Australia, New Zealand, and all the islands in the Pacific will all be brought back into this single Continent.

Do pre-mill not understand the ramifications of the Second Coming?

Certainly Amil just think everything ceases to exist in reality. Literally nothing left. But there will be no separation nor division in the Kingdom of Christ. The kingdom will spread out over the face of the earth for 1,000 years, but all will be connected as one kingdom.

Many just symbolize everything and think just political structures are affected. Isaiah 65 states a new heaven and earth literally. Not just new politics.

 

[Douggg]

Explain how a new river going in two directions out of Jerusalem is not caused by such a split?

After Jesus returns, the area which Jerusalem sits will be raised up and turned as a plain.

Zechariah 14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

Geba is located north of Jerusalem. Rimmon is south of Jerusalem.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Are you aware the term "judgement" is not found in the kjv? So where are you coming up with "Judgment Day" ?

Are you just saying the term is not spelled that way in the KJV, which is kind of a silly thing to point out? The term "judgment" is found in the KJV many times. Here's just one example:

Matthew 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

After Jesus returns, the area which Jerusalem sits will be raised up and turned as a plain.

Zechariah 14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

Geba is located north of Jerusalem. Rimmon is south of Jerusalem.

How do you interpret the verse which follows that:

Zechariah 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

in light of this passage?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Do you think earthly Jerusalem will somehow escape what is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12 unscathed?

 

[Douggg]

Do you think earthly Jerusalem will somehow escape what is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12 unscathed?

This destruction of this current earth and heaven will take place after the millennium reign. Zechariah 14:11 is during the millennium reign.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

This destruction of this current earth and heaven will take place after the millennium reign. Zechariah 14:11 is during the millennium reign.

So, how do you interpret the following verse then:

Zechariah 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Do you believe this is basically saying "there shall be no more utter destruction until Jerusalem is destroyed after the millennium reign"?

 

[Douggg]

So, how do you interpret the following verse then:

Zechariah 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Do you believe this is basically saying "there shall be no more utter destruction until Jerusalem is destroyed after the millennium reign"?

No, Zechariah 14:11 is referring to during the millennium reign of Jesus.