The seventh seal opened and Revelation unfolds

[Douggg]

No, it does not. How are you coming up with that? You're acting like it says He would be cut off immediately after the 62 weeks, but it doesn't say that.

4 days after arriving as the anointed, King of Israel coming in the name of the Lord..

The 70th week is still future. To begin when the prince who shall come confirms the covenant with many for 7 years.

 

[Timtofly]

There is no gap. And there is no promise in verse 24; it says a determination, not a promise. You need to check your dictionary before you try and teach someone. 490 were determined and fulfilled when they failed. A determination conveys a test, not a promise.

And desolations will continue until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled. I never state anywhere the time of the Gentiles was fulfilled in AD 34. I stated it commenced, according to Luke 21:24. You need to read more carefully. Point is the holy city and the people were given 490 years to show righteousness but they failed at then end of the determination.

Again, the seventy weeks was a demonstration of the weakness of that mediation. It was a demonstration that only under Christ's mediation and through the vehicle of the Church would Israel be saved.

There was never a condition set for failure or not in this chapter. Yes a determination is a promise. God was doing this, not humanity. The OT never saw the future church age. They never prophecied there would be thousands of years of Gentile inclusion into God's promise of redemption. Even Daniel's times, time, and half a time was and is so misunderstood.

But Daniel stated Messiah would be cut off, but not why. Daniel stated in the midst of the week terrible things would happen, but not which week.

You are arguing no gap for the wrong reason.

No one understood the gap then, and no one understands it today. If you deny any gap, because there are two, you are only seeing it as a first century Jew would see it. And they never understood stood it, and never will. They are dead. If they do understand it, that means they repented and are now enjoying Paradise, and know the truth.

 

[Timtofly]

I don't know where you come with that notion, Tim, of Jesus having already built the temple and throne on the temple mount, 42 month prior to Armageddon.

Satan will be on the temple mount, when Jesus returns, but not to defend Jerusalem, but to defend his own self from judgment.

Satan is still doing what Satan does at the Second Coming, the 6th Seal, Jesus coming to the mount of Olives. Jesus sets up His throne before the 7th Seal is even opened and the Trumpets even start to sound as found in Revelation 8 and 9. The Trumpets are the call to assembly for Israel. Israel is being gathered out of all nations as the sheep and the goats. Matthew 25:31 is already a reality during the Trumpets, because these judgments are pointed toward the House of Jacob. The time of Jacob's trouble. A third of Israel will be spared, sheep from the goats.

Satan is only granted 42 months when the 7th Trumpet is sounding. In the midst of this week of celebration. The third woe is Satan getting 42 months. But Armageddon is after these 42 months. The Second Coming is not Armageddon. The Second Coming is the 6th Seal.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

There was never a condition set for failure or not in this chapter. Yes a determination is a promise. God was doing this, not humanity. The OT never saw the future church age. They never prophecied there would be thousands of years of Gentile inclusion into God's promise of redemption. Even Daniel's times, time, and half a time was and is so misunderstood.

But Daniel stated Messiah would be cut off, but not why. Daniel stated in the midst of the week terrible things would happen, but not which week.

You are arguing no gap for the wrong reason.

No one understood the gap then, and no one understands it today. If you deny any gap, because there are two, you are only seeing it as a first century Jew would see it. And they never understood stood it, and never will. They are dead. If they do understand it, that means they repented and are now enjoying Paradise, and know the truth.

I already produced the Hebrew word translated “determined” in verse 24 and it means to divide. You do like to make things up like all futurists and dispensationalists. Daniel was instructed to divide the seventy weeks from the 2300 evening/mornings to give Daniel’s people and the holy city a final chance to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, etc., etc.

Below are just a few of the scriptures of hundreds that expose the folly that the Church age was not prophesied.

The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes. Psalms 118:22-23

Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Isaiah 8:13-14

Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 1 Peter 2:5-8​

Point is that God foreknew that all but a remnant would fail in the judgment conveyed by the seventy weeks. They were ordained to fail and salvation went out to the Gentiles as a result. And God, having appointed them to failure, had also ordained the Church age that followed as a result.

There is a tremendous number of OT scriptures that substantiate this and I cite them in a research paper here. No futurist or dispensationalist can ever surmount the evidence presented in my paper.

 

[Douggg]

Jesus sets up His throne before the 7th Seal is even opened and the Trumpets even start to sound as found in Revelation 8 and 9

Are you speaking about a throne in a temple in Jerusalem ?

The Trumpets are the call to assembly for Israel.

Tim, what I read about the six trumpets in Revelation 8 and 9 are not specifically aimed at Israel, but the world instead.

 

[Timtofly]

I already produced the Hebrew word translated “determined” in verse 24 and it means to divide. You do like to make things up like all futurists and dispensationalists. Daniel was instructed to divide the seventy weeks from the 2300 evening/mornings to give Daniel’s people and the holy city a final chance to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, etc., etc.

Below are just a few of the scriptures of hundreds that expose the folly that the Church age was not prophesied.

The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes. Psalms 118:22-23

Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Isaiah 8:13-14

Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 1 Peter 2:5-8​

Point is that God foreknew that all but a remnant would fail in the judgment conveyed by the seventy weeks. They were ordained to fail and salvation went out to the Gentiles as a result. And God, having appointed them to failure, had also ordained the Church age that followed as a result.

There is a tremendous number of OT scriptures that substantiate this and I cite them in a research paper here. No futurist or dispensationalist can ever surmount the evidence presented in my paper.

Explain how one can divide 490 years from 2300 days, or 1150 days.

We already know that 483 years was the time between Daniel and the promised Messiah. A prophecy is a future promise. Your dividing time out of another chapter, does what? The 2300 days was the time of Hanukkah.

The word "determine" does not mean "to divide". The Hebrew word can be defined as "divide". You choose to use "divide". Most translations use the word determine. Some translations even use the word decree. "Determine" means to be fixed or firm in one's intention. The Hebrew word is only found one time in the Bible. You cannot even compare it in other texts for how it can be used in context. You have decided to go in the opposite direction of all translators.

But no one is saying 2300 days should equal 2300 years. Those 2300 days were already accomplished when Antiochus Epiphanes set up the AoD. The time now called Hanukkah.

How is the ministry of Jesus in the same context of Hanukkah?

 

[Timtofly]

Are you speaking about a throne in a temple in Jerusalem ?

Tim, what I read about the six trumpets in Revelation 8 and 9 are not specifically aimed at Israel, but the world instead.

Well Matthew 25:31 is Jesus calling Israel out of every nation. That does involve the whole world.

The temple measured in chapter 11 already was built 42 months before Armageddon. So the Second Coming already happened in the 6th Seal. Yes the temple was set up and the throne set up before the tribulation of the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. It was measured and declared the Gentiles would trample the same 42 months given to Satan. The same time the 2 witnesses are given. The only two redeemed who live the whole time without being beheaded.

Armageddon cannot be the return to the mount of Olives, because the Second Coming was the return to Jerusalem to set up the throne and Temple, Satan would control for the 42 months prior to Armageddon.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

4 days after arriving as the anointed, King of Israel coming in the name of the Lord..

The 70th week is still future. To begin when the prince who shall come confirms the covenant with many for 7 years.

You didn't address my point. It doesn't specifically say immediately or shortly after. Can you at least acknowledge that? It just means some time after which could be shortly after or could be any time after the 69th week.

Also, you don't have the Messiah being cut off during any of the 70 weeks even though His death is what makes it possible for the six things listed in Daniel 9:24 to be fulfilled. That doesn't make any sense. What comes after 69? 70. So, since He was cut off AFTER the 69th week that means He was cut off during the 70th week.

 

[Douggg]

What comes after 69? 70. So, since He was cut off AFTER the 69th week that means He was cut off during the 70th week.

The text does not say after 69 and 1/2 weeks that the messiah is cutoff.

The 70th week will be activated by the prince who shall come confirming the covenant with many for 1 week. During the 70th week, the time of the end vision concerning the little horn will be fulfilled.

 

[Douggg]

You didn't address my point. It doesn't specifically say immediately or shortly after.

It doesn't need to because it is implied.

You are wanting it to be 3 1/2 years after the messiah arrives, that the messiah is cutoff, to accommodate your interpretation verse 27 regarding the 70th week.

4 days on a 7 year (the 70th week) time span is .001587. .001587 of the 70 weeks had been used is your argument in - "what comes after 69?"

 

[Douggg]

The temple measured in chapter 11 already was built 42 months before Armageddon.

Tim, when do you think that temple will be built, relevant to the 7 years ?

I think it has to be before day 220 of the 7 years, so that the prophecy of the 2300 days of the little horn person fits.

 

[Douggg]

Yes the temple was set up and the throne set up before the tribulation of the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders.

Again, are you saying Jesus will built the next temple in Jerusalem on the temple mount, and place his throne in it before the 6 trumpet judgments begin ?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The text does not say after 69 and 1/2 weeks that the messiah is cutoff.

Did I say that it does? No, I did not. What I said is that the text says the Messiah would be cut off be after the 69th week, but it does not indicate how long after. That is a fact. And since He was cut off AFTER the 69th week, that places His death within the 70th week. Since, you know, 70 comes after 69. I know math doesn't seem to be your strong suit as you proved with your illogical interpretation of Revelation 11:14.

The 70th week will be activated by the prince who shall come confirming the covenant with many for 1 week. During the 70th week, the time of the end vision concerning the little horn will be fulfilled.

No. Jesus confirmed the new covenant long ago during the 70th week with His "once for all" sacrifice that put an end to the need for the old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings.

It doesn't need to because it is implied.

No, it is not. Nowhere does the text indicate one way or another how long after the 69th week that the Messiah will be cut off. It only says He would be cut off after the 69th week. Stop being dishonest about what the text actually says. We all have opinions on how long after the 69th week He was cut off, but we can't determine that from the text in Daniel 9:26 alone.

You are wanting it to be 3 1/2 years after the messiah arrives, that the messiah is cutoff, to accommodate your interpretation verse 27 regarding the 70th week.

That is what I believe. Not because I want that to be the case, but because that's how I interpret it.

4 days on a 7 year (the 70th week) time span is .001587. .001587 of the 70 weeks had been used is your argument in - "what comes after 69?"

After means after, regardless of how long after it is. Do you believe that the 69th week began immediately after the 68th week ended? If so, then why wouldn't the 70th week begin immediately after the 69th week ended as well?

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Explain how one can divide 490 years from 2300 days, or 1150 days.

We already know that 483 years was the time between Daniel and the promised Messiah. A prophecy is a future promise. Your dividing time out of another chapter, does what? The 2300 days was the time of Hanukkah.

The word "determine" does not mean "to divide". The Hebrew word can be defined as "divide". You choose to use "divide". Most translations use the word determine. Some translations even use the word decree. "Determine" means to be fixed or firm in one's intention. The Hebrew word is only found one time in the Bible. You cannot even compare it in other texts for how it can be used in context. You have decided to go in the opposite direction of all translators.

But no one is saying 2300 days should equal 2300 years. Those 2300 days were already accomplished when Antiochus Epiphanes set up the AoD. The time now called Hanukkah.

How is the ministry of Jesus in the same context of Hanukkah?

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains. Matthew 24:14-16​

For those who have eyes that see and ears that listen, the 2300 evening/morning are not days but years, just as the seventy weeks. Christ is expounding on Daniel 8, 9, 11, 12 and reveals that the vision concerning the interruption of the daily and the defilement of the sanctuary through abominations has nothing to do with Antiochus Epiphanies but represents the Roman powers of Christ's time. The defilement of the sanctuary in Daniel 9:27 followed upon the wing of the seventieth week and ends with the cleansing of the sanctuary 2300 days/years from the decree to restore and build Jerusalem by Artaxerxes.

In 9:23 Daniel is told to consider the vision to understand the matter.

At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision. (Daniel 9:23)​

In the explanation of the matter, the Hebrew word neḥ·taḵ is translated as determined but more accurately means: to divide. Daniel was instructed to divide seventy weeks from the 2300 evening/mornings to give Daniel’s people and the holy city a final chance to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, etc., etc.

Point is that Daniel’s people and the holy city were given a final chance of 490 years to take the gospel to the nations but they failed. If they had brought in everlasting righteousness, for example, they would have sent salvation to the nations, but they didn't. This we see affirmed in Acts with the stoning of Stephan that, once again, scholars can place at AD 34, fulfilling the final week in the prophecy. After the stoning of Stephen, the disciples scattered and salvation went to the gentiles.

Such an interpretation has overwhelming support in the scriptures as opposed to the futurist gap.

 

[Timtofly]

Tim, when do you think that temple will be built, relevant to the 7 years ?

I think it has to be before day 220 of the 7 years, so that the prophecy of the 2300 days of the little horn person fits.

There is no 7 year "agreement". No one breaks a treaty. Remember your any time rapture?

Well the Second Coming will happen any time in a 3.5 year period. That 42 months keeps getting shorter and shorter. Until the Second Coming happens, no one will know how much time is left in the 42 months.

One thing is for sure. Satan will not get 42 months until after the 7th Trumpet starts sounding.

Why are you basing the Second Coming on Antiochus Epiphanes and Hanukkah? There was no first nor Second Coming involved in that event.

The first woe, 5th Trumpet involves a 5 month period. The Temple will be there that whole 5 months, but does that extend into Satan's 42 months? No one will know until the Second Coming. That is the whole point.

Why is Zechariah 14, a Gog and Magog event? Why can't Zechariah 14 be the opening of the 4th Seal?

Again, are you saying Jesus will build the next temple in Jerusalem on the temple mount, and place his throne in it before the 6 trumpet judgments begin ?

Yes, way before. Before the 7th Seal and 1st Trumpet.

 

[Timtofly]

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains. Matthew 24:14-16​

For those who have eyes that see and ears that listen, the 2300 evening/morning are not days but years, just as the seventy weeks. Christ is expounding on Daniel 8, 9, 11, 12 and reveals that the vision concerning the interruption of the daily and the defilement of the sanctuary through abominations has nothing to do with Antiochus Epiphanies but represents the Roman powers of Christ's time. The defilement of the sanctuary in Daniel 9:27 followed upon the wing of the seventieth week and ends with the cleansing of the sanctuary 2300 days/years from the decree to restore and build Jerusalem by Artaxerxes.

In 9:23 Daniel is told to consider the vision to understand the matter.

At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision. (Daniel 9:23)​

In the explanation of the matter, the Hebrew word neḥ·taḵ is translated as determined but more accurately means: to divide. Daniel was instructed to divide seventy weeks from the 2300 evening/mornings to give Daniel’s people and the holy city a final chance to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, etc., etc.

Point is that Daniel’s people and the holy city were given a final chance of 490 years to take the gospel to the nations but they failed. If they had brought in everlasting righteousness, for example, they would have sent salvation to the nations, but they didn't. This we see affirmed in Acts with the stoning of Stephan that, once again, scholars can place at AD 34, fulfilling the final week in the prophecy. After the stoning of Stephen, the disciples scattered and salvation went to the gentiles.

Such an interpretation has overwhelming support in the scriptures as opposed to the futurist gap.

Except that fell apart 200 years ago. Nothing happened after 2300 years, except the birth of the US.

Jesus is the 70th week. Take it or leave it. 3.5 years at the first coming. 3.5 years at the Second Coming which keeps getting shorter and shorter. The Gospel is still preached during the final 42 months given to Satan which is the 42 months of the Abomination of complete and utter Desolation. To get saved, the alter call is "chop of your head" to avoid the mark. That is how desolate it will get. Armageddon is the end. The AoD is the last 42 months before the end.

The Trumpets and Thunders are the GT. The Second Coming is the 6th Seal. 1948 was the fig tree blooming.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Except that fell apart 200 years ago. Nothing happened after 2300 years, except the birth of the US.

Jesus is the 70th week. Take it or leave it. 3.5 years at the first coming. 3.5 years at the Second Coming which keeps getting shorter and shorter. The Gospel is still preached during the final 42 months given to Satan which is the 42 months of the Abomination of complete and utter Desolation. To get saved, the alter call is "chop of your head" to avoid the mark. That is how desolate it will get. Armageddon is the end. The AoD is the last 42 months before the end.

The Trumpets and Thunders are the GT. The Second Coming is the 6th Seal. 1948 was the fig tree blooming.

You can’t get around Christ’s testimony in the Olivet Discourse.

And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. (Revelation 19:10)

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains. (Matthew 24:14-16)​

For those who have eyes that see and ears that listen, the 2300 evening/morning are not days but years, just as the seventy weeks. Christ testified about Daniel 8, 9, 11, and 12 and reveals that the vision concerning the disruption of the daily and the defilement of the sanctuary through abominations had nothing to do with Antiochus Epiphanies but represented the Roman powers that be. The defilement of the sanctuary in Daniel 9:27 followed the seventieth week and ends with the cleansing of the sanctuary 2300 days/years from the decree to restore and build Jerusalem by Artaxerxes.

As stated previously, the context of Daniel 8 cannot be construed as modern times, by any true grammatical-historical hermeneutic. If one reads the ante-Nicene authors, they knew the beasts in Daniel as the ancient empires from that time like Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome. Maintaining the grammatical-historical hermeneutic is indispensable in interpreting scripture faithfully. What we are dealing with in the little horn is a protracted religious, and political entity and not a mere person. Your assertions, and futurists’ assertions in general, are anachronisms.

 

[Timtofly]

You can’t get around Christ’s testimony in the Olivet Discourse.

And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. (Revelation 19:10)

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains. (Matthew 24:14-16)​

For those who have eyes that see and ears that listen, the 2300 evening/morning are not days but years, just as the seventy weeks. Christ testified about Daniel 8, 9, 11, and 12 and reveals that the vision concerning the disruption of the daily and the defilement of the sanctuary through abominations had nothing to do with Antiochus Epiphanies but represented the Roman powers that be. The defilement of the sanctuary in Daniel 9:27 followed the seventieth week and ends with the cleansing of the sanctuary 2300 days/years from the decree to restore and build Jerusalem by Artaxerxes.

As stated previously, the context of Daniel 8 cannot be construed as modern times, by any true grammatical-historical hermeneutic. If one reads the ante-Nicene authors, they knew the beasts in Daniel as the ancient empires from that time like Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome. Maintaining the grammatical-historical hermeneutic is indispensable in interpreting scripture faithfully. What we are dealing with in the little horn is a protracted religious, and political entity and not a mere person. Your assertions, and futurists’ assertions in general, are anachronisms.

If you are going to argue 23 centuries from Daniel's time, then start with Daniel not 55 years later.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

If you are going to argue 23 centuries from Daniel's time, then start with Daniel not 55 years later.

Ridiculous! Christ is giving us his testimony in the Olivet Discourse of how to interpret Daniel 8, 9, 11 and 12. You simply can't handle the truth.

 

[Douggg]

Yes, way before. Before the 7th Seal and 1st Trumpet.

Tim, where are getting that Jesus returns and builds a temple on the temple mount in Jerusalem, with his throne - and then afterward the great tribulation begins?

Why isn't it the Jews, who have been wanting to rebuild the temple, are the ones who rebuild the temple, that the Antichrist will eventually desecrate?