The seventh day Sabbath was "made for mankind"

[SabbathBlessings]

The 7th is the thing the ceremony is derived from

God says:

Isa 56: Thus says the Lord:

“Keep justice, and do righteousness,
For My salvation is about to come,
And My righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who lays hold on it;
Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,

Exo 20:1
And God spoke all these words, saying:

6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

8 8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.


God in His own voice says those who keeps God’s Sabbath commandment is keeping justice and doing righteousness, which is the foundation of His Throne Psa 89:14 if one wishes not to believe doing what is just and righteous according to God, is not moral, thats something way above anyone on this forum.

 

[BobRyan]

I'm not condemning ceremony but I'm also not going to mislabel it or call it something it isn't

A day of rest on the 7th day each week is not "a ceremony"

ritual involves a rite - the enactment of a rite in symbols etc.

"we consider rite as a broader term for a ceremony, and ritual as the detailed steps within that ceremony"

This is a bit of an obscure list, even still, I fail to see your direct quote, where did you get it from or is it you're own paraphrase?

Each time I give the direct quote I also give the reference -- how are you missing that?
I find that confusing.

read the translations

Holman - 4 Everyone who commits sin also breaks the law; sin is the breaking of law.
KJV - 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
World Wide English Trans - 4 Everyone who does wrong things is breaking God's law. Doing wrong things is breaking the law.
NIVRV 4 Everyone who sins breaks the law. In fact, breaking the law is sin.
GNT 4 Whoever sins is guilty of breaking God's law, because sin is a breaking of the law.
AKJV Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

CJB Everyone who keeps sinning is violating Torah — indeed, sin is violation of Torah.
CEV Everyone who sins breaks God’s law, because sin is the same as breaking God’s law.
KJ21- Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law, for sin is the transgression of the law.
BRG Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

ERV Anyone who sins breaks God’s law. Yes, sinning is the same as living against God’s law.

My list begins with Holman and KJV --- and you call it "obscure"??

What history are you using to refer to KJV as "obscure"

How many of these "transgression of the Law" and "breaking the Law" and "living against God's Law" references do you need so you can stop responding to it as if no one knows about the existence of KJV etc?

 

[DamianWarS]

A day of rest on the 7th day each week is not "a ceremony"

ritual involves a rite - the enactment of a rite in symbols etc.

"we consider rite as a broader term for a ceremony, and ritual as the detailed steps within that ceremony"

Physical rest is symbolic of spiritual rest. But otherwise I'm not sure what your quotes are about as they need more unpacking then just dropping them in.

Each time I give the direct quote I also give the reference -- how are you missing that?
I find that confusing.

the quote in question is

So much so that 1 John 3:4 says "Sin IS transgression of God's Law"

I haven't found any translation that says it this way which is why I asked if it's a paraphrase. I'm not sure why you're making this difficult. Showing me analogous readings is still not the quote.

My list begins with Holman and KJV --- and you call it "obscure"??

What history are you using to refer to KJV as "obscure"

How many of these "transgression of the Law" and "breaking the Law" and "living against God's Law" references do you need so you can stop responding to it as if no one knows about the existence of KJV etc?

I walked through the greek already, you can continue quoting translations to try and emphasize what you want to hear. there are just as many that would however deemphasize it so we must study the Greek to see what its focus was or what its focus was not. Although "transgress" is acceptable based on the context and I have no direct issue with the translations that use this word and also recognize translations have a balance they are trying to strike but what the greek is doing is equating sin with lawlessness saying everyone who commits sin also commits lawlessness (first part of the verse) and sin is lawlessness. (second part of the verse) What did John intend by "lawlessness" you are superimposing an idea that what John actually was saying is you are "transgressing the law of God" with very intentional wording not present in the verse itself.

This reading you promote makes it easier to conclude what "law of God" points to verses a more ambiguous or otherwise softer approach with the use of "lawlessness". I don't feel the text needs to be corrected or some in-between-the-lines needs to be clarified. Johannine epistles are very centred around this core idea of loving each other. It seemed John was very opposed to discord within the church and his letters have a very love for brother approach to them. Perhaps anecdotal, but this is said by Jerome as a commentary of Gal 6:10, although the epistle not written by John Jerome felt it appropriate to include this:

The blessed John the Evangelist lived in Ephesus until extreme old age. His disciples could barely carry him to church and he could not muster the voice to speak many words. During individual gatherings he usually said nothing but, “Little children, love one another.” The disciples and brothers in attendance, annoyed because they always heard the same words, finally said, “Teacher, why do you always say this?” He replied with a line worthy of John: “Because it is the Lord’s commandment and if it alone is kept, it is sufficient.” He said this because of the Apostle’s present mandate: “Let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the household of faith.”

this is consistent with the emphasis Johannine texts have regarding love, especially his words from Jesus regarding a new commandment to love one another, followed by the immediate "keep my commandments" in John 13:34-35 and John 15:12. So when he speaks of "lawlessness" what do you suppose he meant by what was lawful? One can keep the letter of the law but still promote lawlessness, one can also not be guided by the letter but still be lawful. Christ shows us, for example, in Mat 12:12 that goodness is lawful on the Sabbath, yet the letter of the 4th commandment doesn't address this aspect of lawfulness. So goodness is lawful, even though the action of pushing, pulling, lifting, exerting, etc... to pull that sheep out of the pit is against the law, the product is still lawfulness. However if we ignore the sheep trapped in the pit so we can keep our mandate to cease pushing, pulling, lifting, or exerting any significant energy would be actually lawlessness because we are ignoring our mandate to love which is above our mandate to rest.

John does not say "God's law" which could be a nuanced expression for being bound by the old covenant, instead, he uses "lawlessness" which promotes a mandate above the the letter of the law such as loving one another, which is the overall message of Johannine texts. So you throw in this specifically worded paraphrase of this verse thinking it is a mic drop to your case, when it fact I see it as the opposite, one more genuine and consistent with John's message.

 

[BobRyan]

Physical rest is symbolic of spiritual rest

I pray we all can continue to sleep at night even though we are under the New Covenant of Grace and no longer under the Gen 2 old covenant of "obey and live"

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I pray we all can continue to sleep at night even though we are under the New Covenant of Grace and no longer under the Gen 2 old covenant of "obey and live"

Sadly most people think the New Covenant of Grace means lawlessness, despite what God said Heb 8:6,10 and Paul Rom 6:1-4

 

[BobRyan]

the quote in question is

the quote in question is

So much so that 1 John 3:4 says "Sin IS transgression of God's Law"

I haven't found any translation that says it

seriously??

Do you object to John speaking about "God's Law"?
Were you thinking that pagan Rome determines what sin is - for God and Christians???.

Rom 7 "I would not have known about coveting if the LAW had not said - do not covet" -- again - pagan Rome's law or God's Law in your POV

 

[BobRyan]

, you can continue quoting translations to try and emphasize what you want to hear.

That is progress - from your prior idea that no translation say it or that the KJV and Holeman translations are "obscure".

It looks like you are ready to admit that this exists and it is not simply me --

Holman - 4 Everyone who commits sin also breaks the law; sin is the breaking of law.
KJV - 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
World Wide English Trans - 4 Everyone who does wrong things is breaking God's law. Doing wrong things is breaking the law.
NIVRV 4 Everyone who sins breaks the law. In fact, breaking the law is sin.
GNT 4 Whoever sins is guilty of breaking God's law, because sin is a breaking of the law.
AKJV Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

CJB Everyone who keeps sinning is violating Torah — indeed, sin is violation of Torah.
CEV Everyone who sins breaks God’s law, because sin is the same as breaking God’s law.
KJ21- Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law, for sin is the transgression of the law.
BRG Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

ERV Anyone who sins breaks God’s law. Yes, sinning is the same as living against God’s law.

you said:
"This reading you promote makes it easier to conclude what "law of God" points to verses a more ambiguous or otherwise softer approach with the use of "lawlessness". I don't feel the text needs to be corrected or some in-between-the-lines needs to be clarified. "

lawlessness is synonymous with the longer phrase " transgression of the law " as the various translations point out.

Out of curiosity -- do you have a point here? Some alternate view of the text with a difference or a bias to exclude the KJV "transgression of the law"??

 

[DamianWarS]

I pray we all can continue to sleep at night even though we are under the New Covenant of Grace and no longer under the Gen 2 old covenant of "obey and live"

The 7th day God did not physically rest or go to sleep as it he is omnipotent and has no needs of physical recovery. The focus is ceasing his labour, his labour is creation and he ceases it because it is complete, not because of need of physical recovery. This is also the focus of the 4th commandment not sleep as your strawman supposes. Spiritually speaking God is also doing a work in us also triggered when light was spoken in our darkness. When complete it ushers in his Sabbath and we too are called holy.

 

[BobRyan]

John does not say "God's law" which could be a nuanced expression for being bound by the old covenant, instead, he uses "lawlessness" which promotes a mandate above the the letter of the law

a distinction without a difference apparently since we see so many translations using the form you insist is not possible - including KJV and Holemn.

I don't know of anyone who renders "transgression of the Law" in 1 John 3:4 as "violating a certain spelling for the law - but not violating the true intent of the law". You seem to be waging a campaign on something that does not exist.

In Matt 5 Jesus contrasts a light surface reading of God's Law - vs the deep true intent and scope of the Law of God. IN all cases the spiritual sense of it is always more extensive and covers the surface reading of it - and more. So then adultery is not simply the surface level physical act but is ALSO the thought crime level.

So then 1 John 3:4 is in fact in harmony with Christ's teaching in Matt 5 rather than opposing Christ to say that only the surface level violation is a problem.

This point - does not appear to help the agenda that is of the form "ignore the actual seventh day Sabbath and keep it some other way"

 

[BobRyan]

The 7th day God did not physically rest or go to sleep

God said His action alone - makes the Sabbath holy and binding

Ex 20:11

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy...11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Gen 2:2-3
2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

you seem to wish to insert "oh no He did not" after each one of those statements.

I find that "solution" rather novel

 

[BobRyan]

Spiritually speaking God is also doing a work in us also triggered when light was spoken in our darkness. When complete it ushers in his Sabbath and we too are called holy.

There is no indication at all in Gen 2 or Ex 20 that when God gave the Sabbath to Adam on the 7th day -- He then said "well since you are already sinless and in perfect harmony with your creator - just forget about this seventh day thing I just did"

 

[Bob S]

There is no indication at all in Gen 2 or Ex 20 that when God gave the Sabbath to Adam on the 7th day -- He then said "well since you are already sinless and in perfect harmony with your creator - just forget about this seventh day thing I just did"

Where do you get that God gave the Sabbath (LAW) to Adam? I sure don't see anything like okay Adam I am going to rest and enjoy what I have created today and I am giving you a command to do the same every seven days. You will not pick up any sticks and you will remain in your tent and not cook anything. The same goes for all of your posterity.

 

[Clare73]

Sadly most people think the New Covenant of Grace means lawlessness,

When did love of God and neighbor become lawlessness?

Demonstrates a lot regarding one's understanding, representation and use of Scripture. . .

 

[SabbathBlessings]

When did love of God and neighbor become lawlessness?

Demonstrates a lot regarding one's understanding, representation and use of Scripture. . .

When we are choosing our own laws of what we feel is right or wrong and depend on what we feel is love to God and love to man disregarding what God said Exo 20:6 John 14:15 1 John 5:2-3 Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 5:19-30 no matter how many times we try to convince ourselves we are doing right by God, its still lawlessness 1 John 3:4 James 2:10-12 Rom 7:7 it why Jesus said very plainly, many on that day will say Lord Lord (believers) but did their will and not God’s will Psa 40:8 only for Him to say depart from Me Mat 7:21-23, to claim God’s own personal Testimony Exo 31:18 written personally by God, is not His law and will, is only deceiving oneself. It’s why we see the ark of the covenant, which holds God’s personal Testimony, the Ten Commandments written and spoken by the God of the Universe revealed at the last Trumpet before Jesus comes in all His Glory Rev 11:19 as it is the standard of what God will judge all man 2 Cor 5:10 James 2:10-12 Ecc 12:13-14 Mat 5:19-30 Rev 11:18-19 Rev 22:14-15 and removing anything God covers under His mercy seat which below sits God’s Testimony His Ten Commandments, laying it aside as to say its not for me, I do not believe thats going to work out so well as Jesus taught plainly Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13, but we are given free will to believe and adjust ourselves based on what Jesus taught and lived or continue in the path we are going. Once Jesus comes through, all decisions are sealed Rev 22:11

 

[Clare73]

When we are choosing our own laws

Non-responsive. . .

All law is fulfilled simply in loving (Ro 13:8, 10).

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Non-responsive. . .

All law is fulfilled simply in loving (Ro 13:8, 10).

Love according to what Claire says, or what God says? I am going with what God said. You also missed a verse between Romans 13: 8, 10 that shows us how to love thy neighbor Rom 13:9 which harmonizes with what God spoke and wrote. How to love God comes from this same unit. Deut 5, 6

Exo 20:6 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

 

[Clare73]

Love according to what Claire says, or what God says? I am going with what God said. You also missed a verse between Romans 13: 8, 10 that shows us how to love thy neighbor Rom 13:9 which harmonizes with what God spoke and wrote.

Exo 20:6 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

All law is fulfilled simply in loving (Ro 13:8, 10).

 

[SabbathBlessings]

All law is fulfilled simply in loving (Ro 13:8, 10).

Our love is subjective and heart deceptive Jer 17:9, how many times have I heard from professed Christians, I love God, but I do not need to be faithful to my wife, or its okay to lie, all I need to do is love God and believe and I’ll be saved.

I guess thats why you keep removing Rom 13:9. If we love God, we allow Him to direct our paths Pro 3:5-6 which He does through His Word Psa 119:105 like Rom 13:9 Exo 20:1-17 Exo 20:6 John 14:15 1 John 5:3 Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14 etc. etc.

This argument is not really with me and it will get sorted out soon enough

 

[Clare73]

Our love is subjective and heart deceptive Jer 17:9, how many times have I heard from professed Christians, I love God, but I do not need to be faithful to my wife, or its okay to lie, all I need to do is love God and believe and I’ll be saved.

I guess thats why you keep removing Rom 13:9. If we love God, we allow Him to direct our paths Pro 3:5-6 which He does through His Word Psa 119:105 like Rom 13:9 Exo 20:1-17 Exo 20:6 John 14:15 1 John 5:3 Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14 etc. etc.

This argument is not really with me and it will get sorted out soon enough

We are not under the Law.

All law is fulfilled simply in loving (Ro 13:8, 10).

 

[BobRyan]

The 7th day God did not physically rest or go to sleep

But He does say this -

Ex 20:11
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy...11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

and this

Gen 2:2-3
2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

so while it may be very tempting to say "oh no He did not" or "not as much as it appears in the text" - it is still the case that He says the actual action He took - is sufficient to authorize the 7th day as "My Holy Day" Is 58:13 says the Lord.

as it he is omnipotent and has no needs of physical recovery.

The text does not say "because God Himself needed that rest" .. it does not say "because God was sleepy" == so you may be off on a side trail is you drag that into this discussion.

The focus is ceasing his labour,

INDEED -- that act alone makes it Holy and a binding commandment according to "The text" - the actual wording in the text.

not sleep as your strawman supposes.

The "sleep" idea is introduced here as your own strawman. It does not work to blame me for what you are posting.,