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The seventh day Sabbath was "made for mankind"

BobRyan

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Jesus fulfilled (Mt 5:17) our Sabbath-rest
Matt 5:17 does not say "Jesus fulfilled our Sabbath rest"

But it does say Jesus came to fulfill the Law RATHER than end/delete/abolish it.

So then He perfectly fulfilled the command to "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5
He perfectly fulfilled the command to "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18
He perfectly fulfilled the Law to "not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:6

And so on for ALL of the TEN commandments.

But it is obvious to all that this did not mean "delete" or "downsize" or diminish.

The point remains.
by being our Sabbath-rest from our own works
No text says that Jesus "is our Sabbath rest from our own works".

Sola scriptura means support for a suggestion such as the above - needs actual scripture to make the case.
Jesus, not a day of the week,
Obviously Gen 2:2-3 and Ex 20:8-11 refer to the fact that "The seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God" -- an actual day of the week.

The same as "Honor your father and mother" refers to actual humans really related to you.

Jesus said in Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was made for mankind not mankind made for the Sabbath" -- that statement refers to the making of BOTH - mankind and the Sabbath - that we see in Genesis 1 - Gen2:4.

No way to dance around it - or delete the day it references
 
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BobRyan

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No Scripture says another Sabbath rest remains, it says: There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 4:9 NIV
amen

NASB 1955 - 9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

YLT 9 there doth remain, then, a Sabbatic rest to the people of God, -- Young's Literal trasnlation

RSVCE 9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God;

9 So then, a Sabbath rest still remains for the people of God, NRSVUE

9 Consequently a Sabbath rest remains for the people of God. NET (New english Trans)

9 Therefore, a Sabbath rest remains for God’s people. NCSB -- (Holeman)

Someone has altered the text of your Bible.
Seriously?
 
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BobRyan

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None of which demonstrate the 7th day as the day required for observance.
Seriously?

Ex 20:10 "The SEVENTH day is the Sabbath"
Gen 2:3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
Ex 20:11 ...and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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amen

NASB 1955 - 9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

YLT 9 there doth remain, then, a Sabbatic rest to the people of God, -- Young's Literal trasnlation

RSVCE 9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God;

9 So then, a Sabbath rest still remains for the people of God, NRSVUE

9 Consequently a Sabbath rest remains for the people of God. NET (New english Trans)

9 Therefore, a Sabbath rest remains for God’s people. NCSB -- (Holeman)


Seriously?
Amen! God keeps His promises Psa 89:34 Exo 31:16 Mat 5:18

Why the rest in this verse literally translates there remains a keeping of the Sabbath for the people of God!

sabbatismos: Sabbath rest
Original Word: σαββατισμός
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: sabbatismos
Pronunciation: sab-bat-is-mos'
Phonetic Spelling: (sab-bat-is-mos')
Definition: Sabbath rest
Meaning: a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

Thank you God for giving us your Sabbath day of rest and worship, so we know we are following the God of Creation Exo 20:11 a sign of your re-creation in us Eze 20:12 and a sign we are your people Eze 20:20, meant to bless us Isa 56:2 and join us with You Eze 56:2
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Seriously?

Ex 20:10 "The SEVENTH day is the Sabbath"
Gen 2:3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
Ex 20:11 ...and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
The Sabbath rest is according to the commandment in the NT Luke 23:56

It really is very plain, if we allow it to be.
 
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BobRyan

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ALL the texts I reference DO show Sabbath after Sabbath weekly day of worship
NONE of yours do

We note this in your list of examples:
Not a reference to a weekly worship service. RATHER -- It is a one off event.
Not a reference to ignoring or replacing the 7th day Sabbath and also not a reference to a week-day-1 dedicated day of worship.

Not a reference to a weekly service of any kind, It is a one-off gathering because Paul was about to leave on a journey
Not a reference to ignoring or replacing the 7th day Sabbath and also not a reference to a week-day-1 dedicated day of worship.

Not a reference to a weekly service of any kind,
IT is a not even a gathering, or worship service -- it talks about "each laying up by himself alone at home" at the first of each week - some money
Not a reference to ignoring the 7th day Sabbath and also not a reference to a week-day-1 dedicated day of worship.

By contrast ALL of my references show the very thing missing in your examples

I've already told you the NT claims I shown of Sunday worship were anecdotal,

You have zero examples of week-day-1 after week-day-1 days of worship
All of my examples show Sabbath after Sabbath days of worship

ALL references in the NT to "Every Sabbath" as a weekly event -refer to the seventh-day Sabbath

The NT makes no claim of the form "Sabbath now references week-day-1"
The NT makes no claim of the form "week-day-1 is our new weekly day of worship"

This is irrefutable not matter what one decides to do with it.

Prescribing an action for the goal of remembering an event that repeats at the same time each week falls under the category of ceremony.
You have just condemned all the week-day one worship services held in memory of the resurrection of Christ one week-day-1.

You have free will and if you want to climb out on that limb - you are welcome to it. I don't object to your having free will.
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:

NASB 1955 - 9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God
Incomplete address. . .

That is indeed an incomplete copy of my post --
NASB 1955 - 9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
YLT 9 there doth remain, then, a Sabbatic rest to the people of God, -- Young's Literal trasnlation
RSVCE 9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God;
9 So then, a Sabbath rest still remains for the people of God, NRSVUE
9 Consequently a Sabbath rest remains for the people of God. NET (New english Trans)
9 Therefore, a Sabbath rest remains for God’s people. NCSB -- (Holeman)

Now continuing on with "substance" for this topic.

In Heb 10:4-11 we see something replaced

"He takes away the first to establish the second" Heb 10:9

SHowing that He took away animal sacrifices and offerings of the blood of bulls and goats - and replaces it with the blood of Christ.

By contrast Heb 4 relies on the remaining , continuing , lasting feature of the seventh day Sabbath to make its point.

No wonder then that "every Sabbath" Acts 18:4 Paul was in the synagogue preaching the gospel to both gentiles and Jews

No wonder we see in Acts 13 - it is GENTILES waiting for the Jews to leave the synagogue after Paul's gospel sermon, then ask Paul for MORE Gospel preaching to be given to them (NOT on the NEXT day ...sunday) but rather on the next SABBATH - at which point almost the entire gentile town shows up for gospel preaching - along with the Jews.

=================

That last point was made in post #1 of this thread and has been gingerly danced around / avoided to this point -- possibly for some obvious reasons if one is determined to avoid that detail.
 
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Clare73

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Matt 5:17 does not say "Jesus fulfilled our Sabbath rest"

But it does say Jesus came to fulfill the Law RATHER than end/delete/abolish it.
So the Sabbath is not the law. . .
 
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BobRyan

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In Acts 15 when the NT church wanted to find a solution to a problem being inserted by NT Christian Jews -- part of their solution goes back to all that Gentile-worship "every Sabbath" in the synagogues that we see in Acts 13 and 14 and 18

They argue that Moses is preached "every Sabbath in the Synagogues" and sure enough in Acts 18:4 and Acts 13 we see gentiles in the synagogues every Sabbath ... hearing the Gospel and hearing scripture in general
 
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DamianWarS

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ALL the texts I reference DO show Sabbath after Sabbath weekly day of worship
NONE of yours do

We note this in your list of examples:
Not a reference to a weekly worship service. RATHER -- It is a one off event.
Not a reference to ignoring or replacing the 7th day Sabbath and also not a reference to a week-day-1 dedicated day of worship.

Not a reference to a weekly service of any kind, It is a one-off gathering because Paul was about to leave on a journey
Not a reference to ignoring or replacing the 7th day Sabbath and also not a reference to a week-day-1 dedicated day of worship.

Not a reference to a weekly service of any kind,
IT is a not even a gathering, or worship service -- it talks about "each laying up by himself alone at home" at the first of each week - some money
Not a reference to ignoring the 7th day Sabbath and also not a reference to a week-day-1 dedicated day of worship.

By contrast ALL of my references show the very thing missing in your examples
I'm not trying to put Sunday worship over sabbath, just showing you a point of how anecdotal these sources are (for Sunday and Sabbath)
You have zero examples of week-day-1 after week-day-1 days of worship
All of my examples show Sabbath after Sabbath days of worship

ALL references in the NT to "Every Sabbath" as a weekly event -refer to the seventh-day Sabbath

The NT makes no claim of the form "Sabbath now references week-day-1"
The NT makes no claim of the form "week-day-1 is our new weekly day of worship"

This is irrefutable not matter what one decides to do with it.
I've made no claims on Sunday replacing the Sabbath. I'm not even sure why you are bringing this up.

You have just condemned all the week-day one worship services held in memory of the resurrection of Christ one week-day-1.

You have free will and if you want to climb out on that limb - you are welcome to it. I don't object to your having free will.
I've condemned no day. Sunday and Sabbath are both ceremonial in nature (specifically memorial). Sunday is in remembrance of the resurrection and Sabbath in remembrance of the 7th day, but their primary focus is different, even if they appear to overlap on the surface. Sunday is more of a celebratory event and Sabbath is a hallowing event.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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The Sabbath is a memorial to Creation Exo 20:8-11, there are many gods of this worlds but only one God with the power to create heaven and earth and everything in it and its the same God with the power to Judge the world Rev 14:7

The Sabbath is also a commandment of God, thus saith the Lord. Exo 20:8-11 One God said to Remember, so best not to do listen to those teaching we can forget. If only our first parents chose to listen to God instead of the other voice, telling them to do the opposite.

Sunday is a tradition of man, leading people away from obeying one of God’s commandments. There is nothing in the entire Bible that says the Sabbath is cermonial so therefore we can omit this commandment. God said keeping the Sabbath is doing justice and righteousness Isa 56:1-2 and is the foundation of His throne Psa 89:14. While we have free will, it is always best to listen to thus saith the Lord as there are so many on the Sabbath, than listen to what man says. Man never gave up their life to save all humanity, all man has done is rebelled against their very Creator and its sad they still do so regarding God’s Sabbath.
 
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pasifika

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Thank you for your response, but let's keep in mind this is a Christian forum. This is not personal, this is the word of God we discussing here. So this is about all of us. Then of course you post not one verse or scripture, but let's take a look at what Paul says in (Rom. 13:7-10) (v.7) Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. (v.8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. That’s the biblical definition of love, the keeping of God’s law. (v.9) For this, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF. (v.10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

And that is what God’s holy commandments are all about; the first four tells you how to love God and the last six tells you how to love your neighbor. If you love your God you will not do any thing to offend him, like having other gods before him. You will do as he says like remember the sabbath day to keep it holy on the seventh day of the week. If you love him you will obey him when he tells you not to eat certain meats etc… And the same goes for your fellow man, if you love your neighbor you wouldn’t steal from him, you wouldn’t kill him, you wouldn’t try and sleep with his wife and so on and so forth. (See exodus 20: 1-17)
Hi, I agree it's not personal I can assure you of that.

You must understand there are two covenants with it's law etc.

The old has the 10 as it's covenant Law.

The New has Faith and Love as it's covenant Law.

what I can read from your post is you mix the two covenants and it's Law which is not supposed to be.
 
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pasifika

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Jesus did not charge any of his disciples with Sabbath breaking since they were not sinless.

This is also the case with Paul in Act 18:4 keeping the Sabbath "every Sabbath" - preaching the Gospel to both gentiles and Jews in the Synagogues.

Heb 10 makes it clear that animal sacrifices and offerings end with the death of Christ - yet the Ten remain as Paul reminds us in Eph 6:1-3
I guess Jesus did not charge His disciples of breaking the Sabbath (7th day) as they are Not under that covenant.

Paul kept the Sabbath under the New way or New covenant.

The 10 remains for those who are under that old covenant Not the ones under the New covenant.
 
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DamianWarS

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The Sabbath is a memorial to Creation Exo 20:8-11, there are many gods of this worlds but only one God with the power to create heaven and earth and everything in it and its the same God with the power to Judge the world Rev 14:7
Indeed, thus ceremonial
The Sabbath is also a commandment of God, thus saith the Lord. Exo 20:8-11 One God said to Remember, so best not to do listen to those teaching we can forget. If only our first parents chose to listen to God instead of the other voice, telling them to do the opposite.
I'm not sure what you mean by "thus saith the Lord". it does not appear in the text (assuming the KJV), most often the phrase is biblically used preceding a message of correction, even judgment. There is a greater meaning to the Sabbath over just physical rest, and it is that meaning that is more noble. Christ also shows us a better way of keeping law in what's popularly called "Christ's Law" or the "Royal Law"NT authors affirm this, showing that love of neighbour fulfills the entire law, which includes the sabbath.

Sunday is a tradition of man, leading people away from obeying one of God’s commandments. There is nothing in the entire Bible that says the Sabbath is cermonial so therefore we can omit this commandment. God said keeping the Sabbath is doing justice and righteousness Isa 56:1-2 and is the foundation of His throne Psa 89:14. While we have free will, it is always best to listen to thus saith the Lord as there are so many on the Sabbath, than listen to what man says. Man never gave up their life to save all humanity, all man has done is rebelled against their very Creator and its sad they still do so regarding God’s Sabbath.
You're using "tradition of man" in a derogatory sense, but it is shown as a practice in the NT and 1st century church that overlaps biblical practice, plus a tradition that has been unbroken ever since. The only bias I have to the day is nostalgic/sentimental and I recognize its role in Christian living and its values may be throughout the week, regardless of day. I also don't hold that the sabbath was changed or sunday is the new sabbath. "thus saith the Lord" is still a confusing line to me that you're trying to focus on. Can we just insert that before anything we like to proclaim it's true because in practice, is that not what you're doing? if there is a new sabbath, it is Christ, but in reality it is the same plan since the beginning. What Christ shows is a better way of keeping law, which includes the sabbath. Law is not broken, and there is no rebellion; there is only lawful practice.
 
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BobRyan

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Paul kept the Sabbath under the New way or New covenant.
New Covenant is Old Testament - see Jer 31:31-34 where in the NEW Covenant the Law known to Jeremiah and his readers is written on the heart - and Paul reminds us of this very thing in Heb 8
The 10 remains for those who are under that old covenant Not the ones under the New covenant.
It is "from the Ten" that Christ quotes in Matt 19
It is "from the TEN" that James quotes from James 2
It is "from the TEN" that Paul quotes in Rom 13

so much so that when Paul says "Children obey your parents" in Eph 6:1 he then goes directly to "The Ten" in vs 2-3

================

I guess Jesus did not charge His disciples of breaking the Sabbath (7th day)
true.

But He did inspire Bible writers to write this
Even in the OT -- for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to bow down" Is 66:23

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
1 John 5:3-4 "This IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments"
Ex 20:6 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"
John 14:15 "If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"

James 2:10 -- to break one is to break them all

Speaking of what scripture calls "The TEN Commandments" in Deut 4 and Deut 5 - God spoke the TEN and added no more - as directly thundered from Sinai

Paul says this of God's Law "Honor your father and mother is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:1-3

==========================

No wonder then that -
1. Every reference to a weekly Sabbath day of worship in the NT -- is the seventh day - Sabbath.
2. Paul preached the gospel in the synagogue to gentiles and Jews - "every Sabbath" Acts 18:4
3. Gentiles in the synagogue ask for more gospel preaching to be given to them "The NEXT Sabbath" Acts 13
4. Every reference to the term "Every Sabbath" in the book of Acts - is a reference to the 7th day.
5.Notice that God worded His Sabbath Commandment - as if every detail mattered

The New Covenant of Heb 8 and of Jer 31:31-34 writes the LAW of God on the heart.
 
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BobRyan

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SabbathBlessings said:
The Sabbath is a memorial to Creation Exo 20:8-11, there are many gods of this worlds but only one God with the power to create heaven and earth and everything in it and its the same God with the power to Judge the world Rev 14:7
Indeed, thus ceremonial
You are choosing to condemn the practice of all Christian denominations on planet Earth to say that if they have a weekly day of worship according to God's Word in Gen 2:1-3 Ex 20:8-11 - no matter the day of the week - then they are obligated to keep all the ceremonial law.

You have free will and can certainly climb out on that limb if you wish.
I'm not sure what you mean by "thus saith the Lord".
clearly
 
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BobRyan

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Mark 7:7-13 Jewish tradition condemned those who chose to Honor parents - claiming that it would be far more spiritual to give gifts to God's Temple than obey the letter of the 5th commandment regarding parents. How much more spiritual, how much more noble to ignore the letter of the 5th commandment as if it service to God. After all "our Father in heaven" Matt 6 is so much greater than a literal father on Earth. How much more spiritual to ignore the details in the commandment for the sake of serving God - so they said.

How interesting that similar arguments can be found today - for setting aside the Sabbath commandment as well.

What if the fifth commandment means both? (as I have argued before around these parts). In other words what if it means both to honor your physical parents, your father and mother, but also includes honoring your spiritual parent(s), your heavenly Father
I don't think it is a problem to honor God and also honor parents.

But when one turns it into either-or as in "keep the Sabbath or just ignore it, spiritualize it away - and look forward to rest in the new earth" then they are choosing one to negate the other.

in this example, the one understanding cannot and does not nullify the other, that is, honoring your physical earthly father and physical earthly mother. Both meanings can be applied and certainly do apply: the problem is that people do not believe Paul when he states emphatically that the Torah is spiritual, and that is why so many find a need to divide the Torah into supposedly ceremonial laws and moral laws so as to nullify a supposed ceremonial law.
True

Rom 7 makes that case that the Law is spiritual -- so literally honoring parents, and observing the literal Sabbath on the literal seventh day of the week must be done "in spirit and in truth" - as a born-again saved saint.
Mark 7:7-13 Jewish tradition condemned those who chose to Honor parents - claiming that it would be far more spiritual to give gifts to God's Temple than obey the letter of the 5th commandment regarding parents. How much more spiritual, how much more noble to ignore the letter of the 5th commandment as if it was service to God. After all "our Father in heaven" Matt 6 is so much greater than a literal father on Earth. How much more spiritual to ignore the details in the commandment for the sake of serving God - so they said.

How interesting that similar arguments can be found today - for setting aside the Sabbath commandment as well.
 
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BobRyan

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I have no idea what you mean by the last part but you're argument is based on widely conflating passages to support what you want them to. I mean "Sin IS transgression of God's Law" is not even a quote of any translation. You've paraphrased it to put more emphasis on the parts you want to highlight
until you read those translations.
(and I don't mean the capitalization) I'm sorry it feels manipulative and sneaky and I can't respect how you present this.

1 John 3:4 in Greek uses the same word twice which is "lawlessness". It actually never speaks of law, or God's law,
??

read the translations

Holman - 4 Everyone who commits sin also breaks the law; sin is the breaking of law.
KJV - 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
World Wide English Trans - 4 Everyone who does wrong things is breaking God's law. Doing wrong things is breaking the law.
NIVRV 4 Everyone who sins breaks the law. In fact, breaking the law is sin.
GNT 4 Whoever sins is guilty of breaking God's law, because sin is a breaking of the law.
AKJV Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

CJB Everyone who keeps sinning is violating Torah — indeed, sin is violation of Torah.
CEV Everyone who sins breaks God’s law, because sin is the same as breaking God’s law.
KJ21- Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law, for sin is the transgression of the law.
BRG Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

ERV Anyone who sins breaks God’s law. Yes, sinning is the same as living against God’s law.


the 7th day is not a ceremony,
finally
 
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