The Rich Merchants in the True Structuring of the Revelation

[Jerryhuerta]

The confusion is when people start changing the 1260 days into 1260 years.

Your view is hyperbole, as it hasn't happened, while the historicists' is well founded on the history you neglect.

The EU empire is crumbling​

 

[Douggg]

It follows that the seven kings are the five beasts in Daniel 7 (the papacy is the fifth),

There are four beast that represent four kingdoms in Daniel 7, not five.

The ten kings come out the fourth kingdom in the text.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

There are four beast that represent four kingdoms in Daniel 7, not five.

The ten kings come out the fourth kingdom in the text.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

Daniel 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.​

Daniel says the little horn is the same beast in Revelation 19,

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.​

 

[Douggg]

Daniel 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.​

Daniel says the little horn is the same beast in Revelation 19,

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.​

Daniel 7:11 is talking about the end of the fourth kingdom. The kingdom of the beast person, in the end times.

However, the Daniel 7 and 8 little horn person will end up becoming the beast person of Revelation, who will be cast alive into the lake of fire

 

[Zao is life]

Jezebel illustrates the established papacy, commencing with AD 538.

Verse and chapter please.

I could also say, "Jezebel represents the established Pentecostal movement, established in 1906".

Each one of us has equal proof and equal biblical basis for the above claims.

You've already made it clear that you have adjusted Jesus' Revelation to suit your own ideas.

 

[Zao is life]

Revelation 11 affirms, “The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ,” at the seventh trumpet. Revelation 1:5 does not represent the seventh trumpet. Christ tells us his kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36), and Paul tells us we are subject to “the powers that be,” and that was Daniel’s fourth beast when he wrote it (Romans 13). It is safe to say we are still subject to the powers that be, and you misapprehend Revelation 1:5.

PS: the only faithful kings to Christ in Revelation receive their kingdom when Christ returns (Revelation 2:25-27, 3:21). All the other kings in Revelation, except for those in the eternal state, represent the beast powers in Romans 13.

To start with I never even said Revelation 1:5 represents the 7th trumpet.

Jezebel is a false prophetess in a church which means she is part of the harlot. So are those who follow her. Jesus warns both Jezebel and her followers in the church at Thyatira that if she had they do not repent, He Himself will throw her them into great tribulation (megas thlipsis) and kill her children (adherents to her doctrines) with death.

I see you are taking one scripture after another out of context and aligning it with whatever notions you have (though it does not align), and falsely claiming I said things I did not say from the beginning.

No point in talking to you about any of your interpretations, which are way out, because when you start with claiming I implied things I neither said nor implied, it's a worthless conversation, and worthless reading.

 

[3 Resurrections]

As you conceded, Satan uses the beasts to his ends. It was Daniel’s fourth beast that ruled Herod, and he was the one that tried to devour the “man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.” Obviously, the dragon illustrates pagan Rome. You simply can’t surmount the historical and scriptural evidence.

I don't conflate the identity of the human and demonic characters. Are you familiar with the concept of "the divine council" in scripture? Back in the days of Peleg, God divided up the nations according to the number of the angels of God. In opposition to those righteous angels assigned to each of the nations, the "Prince of this world" had his own devils working against them - ultimately to no avail. One example on display in the scripture is the angelic "Prince of Persia" who resisted Daniel's angelic messenger and delayed his coming to Daniel until Michael the "chief prince" came to his aid. Behind the ancient kingdoms of the world, that hierarchy of righteous angels who were individually assigned to the nations of the world was one of the means God used to bring about His plans for those nations.

We have another example in Ezekiel 28:8-10, where the death of the human "Prince of Tyre" was predicted. This description was followed in Ezekiel 28:18-19 by an account of the eventual death of the "anointed cherub", who was also called the "Prince of Tyre", working behind the scenes of that ancient city.

It is the same with Satan working behind the scenes using the means of the human agent Herod to try to disrupt God's plans for bringing Christ the incarnate Redeemer into the world. To no avail, of course. This same evil intention shared between the human and Satanic / demonic agents to destroy Christ does not make Herod and Satan one and the same character, even though they had the same evil purpose.

Regarding your argument against the prophetic churches, preterism violates imminence as a hermeneutic. The prophets conflated imminent events with distant ones without disclosure of the protracted time in between to promote vigilance and thwart lethargy, which is the object of the Olivet Discourse verses 42-51 of Matthew. The same goes with the temporal markers in Revelation.

No, the prophets did NOT "conflate imminent events with distant ones". In Ezekiel 12:21-28, God plainly stated that an "at hand" prophecy would NOT be prolonged into "times that are far off". God said that an "at hand" prophecy would not only be spoken, but it would be fulfilled in the days of the ones who were originally given that prophecy. You can't simply brush off God's own stated definitions of what He meant by an "at hand" prophecy. It is Preterists who correctly acknowledge the terms of imminence where they are given.

As to the seven kings, your argument dismisses the evidence in Daniel that all the satanic world empires, the kingdoms that stand against God, are illustrated as beasts. It follows that the seven kings are the five beasts in Daniel 7 (the papacy being the fifth), continued in Revelation with the sea beast as the little horn, making the two-horned beast the sixth, and the seventh the image. In the historicist view, we have order and agreement with Daniel; what we have in preterism and futurism is confusion and conflict with Daniel.

I have not dismissed the world empires being represented as Beasts. Daniel specifies the Chaldean, Medo-Persian, and Greek kingdoms as being the first of his 4 Beast kingdoms. Daniel's final 4th Beast was said to be unlike the other 3 Beast kingdoms. That is because it would be a conglomerate blend of the power behind all those former kingdoms subsumed into the final Roman phase of the Sea Beast, as presented to us again in Revelation 13:1-2. The seven kings of the Scarlet Beast of Revelation 17 were a subset of the Scarlet Beast. They were not 7 kingdoms themselves. That would be to add to the angel's interpretation of this.

As for the Land Beast of Revelation 13, it is listed as a separate identity from either the Rev. 13:1-2 Sea Beast or the Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast. The Land Beast worked in collusion with the Roman phase of the Sea Beast and under the direct eyesight of that Sea Beast (Rev. 13:14). That made them contemporaries of each other at that point.

John (and the rest of scripture) commonly used the word "Land" or "earth" (tes ges) to speak of "the land of Israel" - the promised land. This Rev. 13:11 "Beast from the land" with its two-horned power structure was connected with the land of Israel and its Pharisee / Sadducee religious leadership. That religious leadership in Jerusalem had turned into a "harlot" and had prostituted itself by aligning with Rome in order to preserve "their place and their nation", as Caiphas once said. There was a definite financial advantage to the priesthood and the Sanhedrin rulers in currying favor with Rome in order to keep the money flowing into their own pockets. Follow the money.

 

[Timtofly]

king 7 is the mortally wounded but healed head. So with 42 months left, king 7 has become the beast king 8.

The 7th king or kingdom is not even part of the dragon nor symbolism. No 7th king or kingdom is killed.

Of the 7, yes. The 8th is the beast, that was but never was a king or kingdom ever. Satan is not a human, but had an influence over the human kingdoms. There is no 7th kingdom of the beast, because it was never allowed. That is what the symbolism states.

We are in the 6th kingdom now, or literally the part of the "non kingdom" period. The stone cut out the church present all over the earth is the 6th kingdom. No one nation is in control.

The 7th kingdom is the Prince to Come, at the Second Coming, Jesus as King sets up His throne and kingdom. Satan will be the 8th if, and only if he is allowed 42 months.

The 7 headed beast is figurative with Satan as the 7th head, but is thwarted in having a kingdom. One of the 7, but will not be the 7th Kingdom. Only the 8th if God allows the 42 months of AoD to take place which is the 8th kingdom along with 10 nations that have never had a kingdom. They are the aftermath of the 6th Seal shake up of the entire earth. They are literally all that is left after the church, the sheep, and the wheat are removed. Not even the goats and tares are still on earth. They have been removed as well. The majority of who is left are those who take the mark, and who knows how many beheaded people will die in those 42 months.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

I don't conflate the identity of the human and demonic characters. Are you familiar with the concept of "the divine council" in scripture? Back in the days of Peleg, God divided up the nations according to the number of the angels of God. In opposition to those righteous angels assigned to each of the nations, the "Prince of this world" had his own devils working against them - ultimately to no avail. One example on display in the scripture is the angelic "Prince of Persia" who resisted Daniel's angelic messenger and delayed his coming to Daniel until Michael the "chief prince" came to his aid. Behind the ancient kingdoms of the world, that hierarchy of righteous angels who were individually assigned to the nations of the world was one of the means God used to bring about His plans for those nations.

We have another example in Ezekiel 28:8-10, where the death of the human "Prince of Tyre" was predicted. This description was followed in Ezekiel 28:18-19 by an account of the eventual death of the "anointed cherub", who was also called the "Prince of Tyre", working behind the scenes of that ancient city.

It is the same with Satan working behind the scenes using the means of the human agent Herod to try to disrupt God's plans for bringing Christ the incarnate Redeemer into the world. To no avail, of course. This same evil intention shared between the human and Satanic / demonic agents to destroy Christ does not make Herod and Satan one and the same character, even though they had the same evil purpose.

No, the prophets did NOT "conflate imminent events with distant ones". In Ezekiel 12:21-28, God plainly stated that an "at hand" prophecy would NOT be prolonged into "times that are far off". God said that an "at hand" prophecy would not only be spoken, but it would be fulfilled in the days of the ones who were originally given that prophecy. You can't simply brush off God's own stated definitions of what He meant by an "at hand" prophecy. It is Preterists who correctly acknowledge the terms of imminence where they are given.

I have not dismissed the world empires being represented as Beasts. Daniel specifies the Chaldean, Medo-Persian, and Greek kingdoms as being the first of his 4 Beast kingdoms. Daniel's final 4th Beast was said to be unlike the other 3 Beast kingdoms. That is because it would be a conglomerate blend of the power behind all those former kingdoms subsumed into the final Roman phase of the Sea Beast, as presented to us again in Revelation 13:1-2. The seven kings of the Scarlet Beast of Revelation 17 were a subset of the Scarlet Beast. They were not 7 kingdoms themselves. That would be to add to the angel's interpretation of this.

As for the Land Beast of Revelation 13, it is listed as a separate identity from either the Rev. 13:1-2 Sea Beast or the Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast. The Land Beast worked in collusion with the Roman phase of the Sea Beast and under the direct eyesight of that Sea Beast (Rev. 13:14). That made them contemporaries of each other at that point.

John (and the rest of scripture) commonly used the word "Land" or "earth" (tes ges) to speak of "the land of Israel" - the promised land. This Rev. 13:11 "Beast from the land" with its two-horned power structure was connected with the land of Israel and its Pharisee / Sadducee religious leadership. That religious leadership in Jerusalem had turned into a "harlot" and had prostituted itself by aligning with Rome in order to preserve "their place and their nation", as Caiphas once said. There was a definite financial advantage to the priesthood and the Sanhedrin rulers in currying favor with Rome in order to keep the money flowing into their own pockets. Follow the money.

Concerning the identity of the dragon, you pretty much made my case. Satan used Herod, but Herod was the puppet of Rome, under its authority, so it was Rome that tried to devour the “man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.” The dragon in 12 and 13 is clearly an illustration of pagan Rome. There is no evading it when versed in history and scripture.

As to the issue of imminence, read Zephaniah,

Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand… (Zephaniah 1:7)​

Zephaniah is proclaiming the imminent judgment of Judah at the hands of Babylon. He continues in Chapter 3,

Woe to her that is filthy and polluted, to the oppressing city! (Zephaniah 3:1)​

Then “in that day” God relents and restores his people,

In that day shalt thou not be ashamed for all thy doings, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then I will take away out of the midst of thee them that rejoice in thy pride, and thou shalt no more be haughty because of my holy mountain… The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid. (Zephaniah 3:11, 13)​

Scripture supports the hermeneutic of imminence, which conflates near and far phenomena in prophecy without disclosure of the protracted time in between to promote vigilance and thwart lethargy.

As to the seven kings, the Persian empire was a blend of the previous Chaldean, as the Greek was a blend of the previous two, and the Roman was no different in this respect. How it was different is obvious; Daniel says it was different because of the ten horns (verse 7). Your failure, and neglect of history, to connect the horns with the ten toes are your undoing. As stated to Douggggg, the little horn is a beast/kingdom, revealed in Daniel 7 verses 8, 11, and 23, and represents the sea beast in power and renamed the scarlet beast when it’s wounded, and then cast into the lake of fire in Revelation 19:20. My take on the seven kings surpasses your poor view, because it is simple, if one does not neglect history.

The seven kings are Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and the fifth, the papacy, illustrated as the sea beast. As to the sixth, the beast from the earth, it is a kingdom that wounds the sea beast, or at least supplants it as a secular world power that changes and makes an image to the first, establishing religion again as the seventh king.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

To start with I never even said Revelation 1:5 represents the 7th trumpet.

Jezebel is a false prophetess in a church which means she is part of the harlot. So are those who follow her. Jesus warns both Jezebel and her followers in the church at Thyatira that if she had they do not repent, He Himself will throw her them into great tribulation (megas thlipsis) and kill her children (adherents to her doctrines) with death.

I see you are taking one scripture after another out of context and aligning it with whatever notions you have (though it does not align), and falsely claiming I said things I did not say from the beginning.

No point in talking to you about any of your interpretations, which are way out, because when you start with claiming I implied things I neither said nor implied, it's a worthless conversation, and worthless reading.

I’m glad we settled that Revelation 1:5 does not support that Christ’s messianic reign in the inter-advent age.

Thyatira is the Church, and Jezebel is a foreigner in the OT. Of course, this fits well with the era when the little horn/papacy, full of blasphemies, attempts to seduce the Church. Your neglect of history results in taking scripture out of context, aligning it with whatever notion you have (though it does not align), and falsely claiming I said things I did not say from the beginning.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Verse and chapter please.

I could also say, "Jezebel represents the established Pentecostal movement, established in 1906".

Each one of us has equal proof and equal biblical basis for the above claims.

You've already made it clear that you have adjusted Jesus' Revelation to suit your own ideas.

You're funny. Chapter and verse are for doctrine. Interpreting prophecy is reconciling history to narration and symbolism. Educate yourself.

The seven churches are prophetic as well as historical. After the persecution by Diocletian, during the Smyrna era, the Church gained status in the pagan city of Rome under Constantine, fulfilling the Pergamos era. From that time, the power of the Roman church grew to usurp a see of cardinals.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Daniel 7:11 is talking about the end of the fourth kingdom. The kingdom of the beast person, in the end times.

However, the Daniel 7 and 8 little horn person will end up becoming the beast person of Revelation, who will be cast alive into the lake of fire

Daniel 7:11 addresses the little horn; he’s the one “speaking great words” in verse 8. And 11 maintains he is a beast, period. You really have a knack for missing or evading details. The little horn is a beast/kingdom, revealed in Daniel 7 verses 8, 11, and 23, and represents the sea beast in power and the scarlet beast when it’s wounded and to be cast into the lake of fire in Revelation 19:20.

And Revelation 17:8 establishes that the scarlet beast “was and is not,” from the viewpoint when the sixth king “is.” John is not speaking in the future tense in verse 8a. He shifts to the future tense when the beast ascends out of the pit to become the eighth king.

Revelation 17:11 says the eighth “is of the seven;” it doesn’t say he “was the seventh,” which is what you are forcing it to say. Again, your Shibboleth is the detail that the eighth king is the revived fifth one, who “was” before the sixth.

Again, you still haven’t explained how a future leader of the EU lived before Claudius. Revelation 17:9-10 says the eighth head “was” before the sixth, which you say is Claudius. Again, how does the future head of the EU come before the emperor Claudius of ancient times?

 

[Douggg]

Daniel 7:11 addresses the little horn; he’s the one “speaking great words” in verse 8. And 11 maintains he is a beast, period.

The little horn is a horn on the fourth beast. The horns on the fourth beast represent kings.

 

[Douggg]

Again, you still haven’t explained how a future leader of the EU lived before Claudius. Revelation 17:9-10 says the eighth head “was” before the sixth, which you say is Claudius. Again, how does the future head of the EU come before the emperor Claudius of ancient times?

The is no eighth "head" in the text. The scarlet beast in Revelation 17 has seven heads, not eight.

btw, I wrote the sixth king was Nero, not Claudius.


head 1. Julius Caesar
head 2. Augustus
head 3. Tiberius
head 4. Caligula
head 5. Claudius
head 6. Nero

head 7. little horn end times person
king 8. the beast person (the little horn, after he is killed and brought back to life)

_________________________________________________________________________


Why do not either the seven heads, nor the ten horns on the Revelation 17 scarlet beast have crowns ?

The ten kings are not historic kings, like you are claiming. But time-of-the-end kings who will rule with the time-of-the-end beast person king 8.

On the Revelation 13 beast out of the sea, the ten horns have crowns, with 42 months left in the 7 years Revelation 13:5 for the time-of-the-end beast person.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

The little horn is a horn on the fourth beast. The horns on the fourth beast represent kings.

And Daniel 7 verses 8, 11, and 23 also show it's a beast/kingdom too.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

The is no eighth "head" in the text. The scarlet beast in Revelation 17 has seven heads, not eight.

btw, I wrote the sixth king was Nero, not Claudius.


1. Julius Caesar
2. Augustus
3. Tiberius
4. Caligula
5. Claudius
6. Nero

7. little horn end times person
8. the beast (the little horn after he is killed and brought back to life)

_________________________________________________________________________


Why do not either the seven heads, nor the ten horns on the Revelation 17 scarlet beast have crowns ?

The ten kings are not historic kings. But time of the end kings who will rule with the beast person king 8.

On the Revelation 13 beast out of the sea, the ten horns have crowns, with 42 months left in the 7 years Revelation 13:5 for the beast person.

17:11 says the same beast, the scarlet, “even he is the eighth." He was previously, or before he was wounded, reigned before the sixth king, making him one of the fallen five.

Revelation 17:11 says the eighth “is of the seven;” it doesn’t say he “was the seventh,” which is what you are forcing it to say. Again, your Shibboleth is the detail that the eighth king is the revived fifth one, who “was” before the sixth.

Again, you still haven’t explained how a future leader of the EU lived before Claudius. Revelation 17:9-10 says the eighth head “was” before the sixth, which you say is Claudius. Again, how does the future head of the EU come before the emperor Claudius of ancient times?

 

[Douggg]

. Revelation 17:9-10 says the eighth head “was” before the sixth, which you say is Claudius.

There is no eighth head on the Scarlet coloured beast.

The Scarlet coulured beast has seven heads.

3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

 

[Douggg]

And Daniel 7 verses 8, 11, and 23 also show it's a beast/kingdom too.

Daniel 7 does not show that the little horn is a beast/kingdom. The little horn is a king that will come out of the fourth kingdom.

The fourth kingdom is the un-named fearsome beast described as....

7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

.........historically, known to be the Roman Empire.

 

[Douggg]

Chapter 13 represents the risen ten kings from Daniel, illustrated as having crowns on their heads.

Revelation 13 nullifies the historist view because the ten horns, representing ten kings, do not have their crowns to rule with beast person until Revelation 13 - which has only 42 months in Revelation 13:5 left in the 7 years.

During the 42 months, the 666, name of the beast, mark of the beast - buy/sell law goes into effect.

 

[Douggg]

Again, you still haven’t explained how a future leader of the EU lived before Claudius. Revelation 17:9-10 says the eighth head “was” before the sixth, which you say is Claudius. Again, how does the future head of the EU come before the emperor Claudius of ancient times?

Jerry, why are you continuing to say eighth "head"? There is no eighth "head" on the Revelation Scarlet colored beast. The Scarlet colored beast has only seven heads, Revelation 17:3. Jerry, correct your copy and pasting, to say eighth king instead, going forward.

The 7th Julio Claudian king - the little horn person - comes to power right before entering the final 7 years of the end times, in Revelation 12, as that picture of the Great Red Dragon has the 7 heads with crowns - signifying that the prophecy of the 7 kings is complete then.

1260 days + the time/times/half time in Revelation 12 make up the seven years.

There are no time components of the 7 years in Revelation 17. Thus, no crowns on either the heads, nor horns in Revelation 17, the status of the beast first century, when King 6 was ruling at the time of John.

____________________________________________________________________________

Jerry, you are not following the progression of the 7 kings.

In Revelation 17, 6 kings are fulfilled, first century.
In Revelation 12, all 7 kings have been fulfilled, 7 years left
In Revelation 13, king 7 has become king 8, 42 months left