The Rich Merchants in the True Structuring of the Revelation

[Douggg]

"Status" is a position in society at any given time. You don’t even know what the word means, and you’re making up things like you usually do to try and cover your delusions or fallacies; it’s double-speak.

Jerry, that is exactly the meaning that I intended. I do know what the word means.

differently, "perspective" (one of the definitions) means a point of view from someone - i.e. their opinion on something.

Status is fact.
Perspective is opinion.

"Status in time" - specific to the 7 kings and 10 kings, in the scriptures is whether they have crowns or no crowns at certain points of time - i.e. of the past, present, future.

You keep saying "perspective in time" , you should be saying instead something like "in relation to time" or "status in time".

And in presenting your view - you have not referenced what the time is in each chapter, relative to Jesus's return, which the 7 kings and 10 kings have their crowns - i.e. specifically chapter 12 and chapter 13.

chapter 12 - is 7 years left relevant to Jesus's return. The 1260 days in Revelation 12:6 - the first half. The time/times/half time in Revelation 12:14 - the second half. The 7 kings have crowns. The 10 kings do not.

chapter 13 - is 42 months left relevant to Jesus's return. The 7 kings no longer have crowns. The 10 kings have crowns. And one of the kings has been mortally wounded, but healed. The beast-king is chapter 13 and is being worshiped in verse 4.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

No, you did not. You did not say 7 kings, like it says in the text. You are still saying 6 kings.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.


How many kings does it say in verse 10? You still haven't answered that.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Your question is flawed. Ask a question that fits with what the text says. Seven kings, not just six.

The point is, Douglas, I account for all seven kings in my answer; apparently, you have difficulty with comprehension.

Again, the king that is in power when the harlot Babylon is judged is the sixth king; that’s what it means when the angel says the sixth king “is” in verse 10. The angel shows John the judgment of the harlot for her earlier fornications and drunkenness and tells John in verse 10 the time is the sixth king’s reign. Her punishment for her harlotry is conveyed only after the beast has risen in the latter part of the chapter.

And from that same “perspective in time,” the sixth king's reign, we are told the eighth head had previously held power, conveyed by the angel declaring he “was, and is not” in verses 8 and 11, which makes him one of the fallen five, to rise again as the eighth, conveyed in verse 11.

So, from the perspective of the sixth king’s reign, the eighth head had previously reigned as one of the five and rises again as the eighth, which maintains he “was, and is not” during the reigns of the sixth and seventh kings.

All seven are accounted for those with eyes that see God's mysteries.

You’re trying to change the “perspective of time” from the “future” to the “past” in determining the king that “is.” And therein lies all your misrepresentation, like every futurist.

So, if the sixth kings are Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero, according to your convoluted interpretation, how is it that the future antichrist preceded Nero according to verses 9-11? You still haven’t answered that.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

There are 7 kings in the text. The woman turned harlot, the Vatican, still has not been burned to ground, and is active in the world today.

King 7, the end times little horn person will be killed and brought back to life as king 8, the beast-king. The ten kings who destroy the Vatican will do so at the time of the 42 month beast king's rule. Still future.

This is what I mean, Douglas, sloppy reading. The papacy can’t be the harlot because she did not make the merchants of the earth rich; apostate Protestantism did when they held intercourse with the princes of the earth to secularize society and make the merchants rich.

It’s historically confirmed the papacy legitimized the kings that received their crowns after the fall of Rome by their acknowledgment the pope stood in place of God for one thousand two hundred and sixty years, fulfilling the little horn, which is also the beast from the sea. You can close your eyes and your ears all you want. Still, it doesn’t dismiss the scriptural and historical evidence that Historicism has the proper hermeneutics to interpret Revelation and prophecy in general. You’re simply not going to surmount that the horns or toes received their crowns when Rome fell, which destroys your futurist's misrepresentations. Or that the Protestants broke the power of the papacy by secularizing society.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Jerry, that is exactly the meaning that I intended. I do know what the word means.

differently, "perspective" (one of the definitions) means a point of view from someone - i.e. their opinion on something.

Status is fact.
Perspective is opinion.

"Status in time" - specific to the 7 kings and 10 kings, in the scriptures is whether they have crowns or no crowns at certain points of time - i.e. of the past, present, future.

You keep saying "perspective in time" , you should be saying instead something like "in relation to time" or "status in time".

And in presenting your view - you have not referenced what the time is in each chapter, relative to Jesus's return, which the 7 kings and 10 kings have their crowns - i.e. specifically chapter 12 and chapter 13.

chapter 12 - is 7 years left relevant to Jesus's return. The 1260 days in Revelation 12:6 - the first half. The time/times/half time in Revelation 12:14 - the second half. The 7 kings have crowns. The 10 kings do not.

chapter 13 - is 42 months left relevant to Jesus's return. The 7 kings no longer have crowns. The 10 kings have crowns. And one of the kings has been mortally wounded, but healed. The beast-king is chapter 13 and is being worshiped in verse 4.

I used the phrase “perspective in time,” which the angle confirms as the time of the sixth king. It is not just opinion, Douglas. There can be no confusion as to what I meant if anyone is serious and not being impudent. It is from the reign of the sixth king that the angel states the eighth head had previously reigned, making him one of the five that had fallen, past tense. He goes on to say that in the future, after the short reign of the seventh king, the beast will rise to become the eighth, regaining his fallen status.

History confirms the papacy legitimized the kings that received their crowns after the fall of Rome by their acknowledgment the pope stood in place of God for one thousand two hundred and sixty years, fulfilling the little horn, which is also the beast from the sea.

 

[Douggg]

It is from the reign of the sixth king that the angel states the eighth head had previously reigned, making him one of the five that had fallen, past tense.

Jerry, there is no eighth "head" on the beast. The beast has seven heads, not eight.

The angel is not stating that the eighth king had previously reigned before the sixth king.

The angel in verse 10 is informing that there are 7 kings - that is the premise before the angel continues talking about five fallen kings and one presently ruling king, the sixth king.

Then the angel in that verse 10, says there is one king yet to come, which can only be king 7.

Jerry, the whole problem in this discussion is - you are not acknowledging king 7 and that the angel said when king 7 comes, he must continue a short space.

The angel is telling you right there that king 7 will continue as the beast-king, king 8.
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Then in verse 11, the angel starts telling some things about the beast-king.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Now where is it in Revelation 17, it previously speaks about the beast who was, is not, even is ?

It is in verse 8b, in the mystery of the scarlet colored beast Satan. Verse 8 is about the mystery of Satan - how he used the garden of eden serpent beast in verse 8a. The garden of eden serpent beast is who is in the bottomless pit. And later in the end times, Satan will use king 7 to become king 8. At which time of king 7 becoming king 8, the spirit of the garden of eden serpent beast will come out of the bottomless pit to possess the beast-king.

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 

[Douggg]

Again, the king that is in power when the harlot Babylon is judged is the sixth king; that’s what it means when the angel says the sixth king “is” in verse 10.

The Vatican, which the ten kings are going to burn to the ground, did not even exist at the time of the sixth king Nero. The Vatican building that is going to be destroyed was built and completed in 1506 to 1626. That's the building you see when you do a google image search of the "Vatican".

 

[Douggg]

The point is, Douglas, I account for all seven kings in my answer; apparently, you have difficulty with comprehension.

You weren't even able to say who king seven refers to. So you did not account for all seven kings.

 

[Marilyn C]

The seven kings/leaders are contemporary with the final gentile Global Government. `Five have fallen, `refers to the 5 rotation of the G 20 leaders. When that concludes and the 6th comes in then it will be in the trib. (Rev. 17: 10). That is just before the 10 king Federation of Islam takes over and their 7th leader comes to full power and authority.

 

[Douggg]

The seven kings/leaders are contemporary with the final gentile Global Government. `Five have fallen, `refers to the 5 rotation of the G 20 leaders. When that concludes and the 6th comes in then it will be in the trib. (Rev. 17: 10). That is just before the 10 king Federation of Islam takes over and their 7th leader comes to full power and authority.

Hi Marilyn, the daily sacrifice will be stopped in the middle of the 70th week. In order to be stopped, the daily sacrifice must in operation. To be in operation, there must be a Jewish Temple in place. The Dome of the Rock is situated right over the sanctuary building location of the former Jewish Temples. Islam if still around would never allow the Jews to tear down their Dome of the Rock.

It is only after Gog/Magog event, which ends Islam, that the Jews will be able to tear down the Dome of the Rock to build their temple.
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Also, the scenario you are suggesting does not match with crowns, no crowns for the 7 heads. Crowns in Revelation 12 for the 7 heads with 7 years to go before Jesus Returns. In Revelation 13, the crowns on the 7 heads are gone with 42 months to go before Jesus Returns.

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The G20 is a forum, not a one world global government, of 19 countries and the European Union to address major issues related to global economy.

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Islam does not have the political nor miltary power to rule over the rest of the world.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Jerry, there is no eighth "head" on the beast. The beast has seven heads, not eight.

The angel is not stating that the eighth king had previously reigned before the sixth king.

The angel in verse 10 is informing that there are 7 kings - that is the premise before the angel continues talking about five fallen kings and one presently ruling king, the sixth king.

Then the angel in that verse 10, says there is one king yet to come, which can only be king 7.

Jerry, the whole problem in this discussion is - you are not acknowledging king 7 and that the angel said when king 7 comes, he must continue a short space.

The angel is telling you right there that king 7 will continue as the beast-king, king 8.
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Then in verse 11, the angel starts telling some things about the beast-king.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Now where is it in Revelation 17, it previously speaks about the beast who was, is not, even is ?

It is in verse 8b, in the mystery of the scarlet colored beast Satan. Verse 8 is about the mystery of Satan - how he used the garden of eden serpent beast in verse 8a. The garden of eden serpent beast is who is in the bottomless pit. And later in the end times, Satan will use king 7 to become king 8. At which time of king 7 becoming king 8, the spirit of the garden of eden serpent beast will come out of the bottomless pit to possess the beast-king.

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The problem with your views, Douglas, is that you like to make up things rather than adhere to what the texts state. You chide me because “punishment” isn’t mentioned in the chapter, and then think you’re going to get away with pulling the Garden of Eden and the serpent out of nowhere. Where is the Garden of Eden and the serpent mentioned? You’re making that up, whereas verse 16 is clearly the punishment of the harlot. And judgment must precede punishment.

You can’t even explain your interpretation without contradicting yourself and conceding my point. In your post #244, you stated, “the seven heads also represent seven kings,” which admits that the heads equal kings.

Then you admit that the beast that was, and is not, “will continue as the beast-king, king 8.” You can’t see your own folly that you’ve admitted the eighth king is also the eighth head when you admitted the heads equal kings.

Yet you still cling to the gross misrepresentation that the eighth head is the risen seventh king, in contradiction to what the passage in question states.

And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. (Revelation 17:10-11)​

The angel tells John that the king that reigns is the sixth. And then he states, “and the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth,” which affirms the eighth head had previously reigned as one of the fallen five, and rises again as the eighth. The scarlet beast “was, and is not” during the reigns of the sixth and seventh kings.

It’s a conundrum that goes over your head, apparently. That’s why it takes wisdom to understand; unfortunately, you fail.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

The Vatican, which the ten kings are going to burn to the ground, did not even exist at the time of the sixth king Nero. The Vatican building that is going to be destroyed was built and completed in 1506 to 1626. That's the building you see when you do a google image search of the "Vatican".

It’s historically confirmed the papacy legitimized the kings that received their crowns after the fall of Rome by their acknowledgment the pope stood in place of God for one thousand two hundred and sixty years, fulfilling the little horn, which is also the beast from the sea. You can close your eyes and your ears all you want. Still, it doesn’t dismiss the scriptural and historical evidence that Historicism has the proper hermeneutics to interpret Revelation and prophecy in general. You’re simply not going to surmount that the horns or toes received their crowns when Rome fell, which destroys your futurist's misrepresentations. Or that the Protestants broke the power of the papacy by secularizing society.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

You weren't even able to say who king seven refers to. So you did not account for all seven kings.

This is what I mean, Douglas, sloppy reading. I wrote some time ago the beast that was is the little horn, the fifth kingdom in Daniel 7, and the sea beast in Revelation 13, which makes the beast from the earth the sixth head/king and the seventh the is the image. All seven, nay eight heads/kings, are accounted for from a historicist’s lens.

 

[Douggg]

You’re simply not going to surmount that the horns or toes received their crowns when Rome fell, which destroys your futurist's misrepresentations.

The ten horns do not have their crowns until Revelation 13:1. Which Revelation 13 is time-stamped with 42 months left before Jesus returns.

So, no, I am not going to acknowledge that the beast-king who will rule 42 months in Revelation 13:5 is historic, because it simply is not factual - because those 42 months end with Jesus's Return in Revelation 19:19-20 to cast the beast-king and the false prophet alive into the lake of fire.

 

[Douggg]

It’s historically confirmed the papacy legitimized the kings that received their crowns after the fall of Rome by their acknowledgment the pope stood in place of God for one thousand two hundred and sixty years, fulfilling the little horn, which is also the beast from the sea

The little horn person of Daniel 8 is time of the end - not historic. .

The 1260 days, not years, of Revelation 11:3 and Revelation 12:6 is the testimony time of the two witnesses in the end times. They will be in Jerusalem, not Rome.

 

[Douggg]

The problem with your views, Douglas, is that you like to make up things rather than adhere to what the texts state. You chide me because “punishment” isn’t mentioned in the chapter, and then think you’re going to get away with pulling the Garden of Eden and the serpent out of nowhere. Where is the Garden of Eden and the serpent mentioned? You’re making that up, whereas verse 16 is clearly the punishment of the harlot. And judgment must precede punishment.

It is called a mystery of the scarlet colored beast that the woman was riding for a reason. It is up to the reader to figure out the mystery of Satan, of who it is in the bottomless pit that will someday come out. You know that it is not Satan himself.

You also know that from Revelation 12:9, that Satan is called that "old" serpent, who deceives the whole world. Where is that "old" serpent tag coming from, Jerry ? When did Satan first start deceiving man ?

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Judgement of the woman turned prostitute in Revelation 17 means condemnation for evil that she has done. The ten kings will destroy the Vatican, by making it empty (desolate), and burning it to the ground. The Vatican is still standing, the Pope is still there, and the Vatican has influence worldwide among the leaders of nations.

The reformation did many things for the good of Christianity, but it was not successful in erasing the Vatican from Rome, and its influence among the leaders of nations. You are acting like the Vatican no longer exists.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

The ten horns do not have their crowns until Revelation 13:1. Which Revelation 13 is time-stamped with 42 months left before Jesus returns.

So, no, I am not going to acknowledge that the beast-king who will rule 42 months in Revelation 13:5 is historic, because it simply is not factual - because those 42 months end with Jesus's Return in Revelation 19:19-20 to cast the beast-king and the false prophet alive into the lake of fire.

The horns or toes received their crowns when Rome fell, which destroys your futurist's misrepresentations. You haven’t surmounted the history of the ten horns. Revelation 13 is about the rise of the papacy. Revelation 12, 13, and 17 are linear narrations.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

The little horn person of Daniel 8 is time of the end - not historic. .

The 1260 days, not years, of Revelation 11:3 and Revelation 12:6 is the testimony time of the two witnesses in the end times. They will be in Jerusalem, not Rome.

It’s historically confirmed the papacy legitimized the kings that received their crowns after the fall of Rome by their acknowledgment the pope stood in place of God for one thousand two hundred and sixty years, fulfilling the little horn, which is also the beast from the sea.

By no means have you surmounted the history of the papacy.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

It is called a mystery of the scarlet colored beast that the woman was riding for a reason. It is up to the reader to figure out the mystery of Satan, of who it is in the bottomless pit that will someday come out. You know that it is not Satan himself.

You also know that from Revelation 12:9, that Satan is called that "old" serpent, who deceives the whole world. Where is that "old" serpent tag coming from, Jerry ? When did Satan first start deceiving man ?

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Judgement of the woman turned prostitute in Revelation 17 means condemnation for evil that she has done. The ten kings will destroy the Vatican, by making it empty (desolate), and burning it to the ground. The Vatican is still standing, the Pope is still there, and the Vatican has influence worldwide among the leaders of nations.

The reformation did many things for the good of Christianity, but it was not successful in erasing the Vatican from Rome, and its influence among the leaders of nations. You are acting like the Vatican no longer exists.

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour. (1 Peter 5:8)​

Satan is not in the bottomless pit, according to Peter. You made that up, too. And the mystery is just as much about the “woman” as the scarlet beast.

And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH… And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. (Revelation 17:5, 7)​

The mystery is solved, insomuch that history records that it was apostate Protestantism that held intercourse with the kings of the earth to secularize society, which enriched the merchants of the earth.

For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. (Revelation 18:3)​

History affirms the papacy blocked the rise of the merchants. It is obvious you are ignorant of history.

 

[Douggg]

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour. (1 Peter 5:8)
Satan is not in the bottomless pit, according to Peter. You made that up, too. And the mystery is just as much about the “woman” as the scarlet beast.

I said Satan was not in the bottomless pit.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Marilyn, the daily sacrifice will be stopped in the middle of the 70th week. In order to be stopped, the daily sacrifice must in operation. To be in operation, there must be a Jewish Temple in place. The Dome of the Rock is situated right over the sanctuary building location of the former Jewish Temples. Islam if still around would never allow the Jews to tear down their Dome of the Rock.

It is only after Gog/Magog event, which ends Islam, that the Jews will be able to tear down the Dome of the Rock to build their temple.
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Also, the scenario you are suggesting does not match with crowns, no crowns for the 7 heads. Crowns in Revelation 12 for the 7 heads with 7 years to go before Jesus Returns. In Revelation 13, the crowns on the 7 heads are gone with 42 months to go before Jesus Returns.

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The G20 is a forum, not a one world global government, of 19 countries and the European Union to address major issues related to global economy.

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Islam does not have the political nor miltary power to rule over the rest of the world.

The Temple that the A/C desecrates is already built. It is not on the Dome of the Rock but in King George Street.

And the Russian war does not include all the inner Middle East Islamic nations, only Iran. Remember that the A/C deceives the other nations and thus will control them. Also, Islam is very, very rich and not in debt like the Western nations. Who relies on whose oil? And who is doing all the killing of Christians?