The Rich Merchants in the True Structuring of the Revelation

[Douggg]

Case in point, futurists proof-text Revelation 13 and say it represents the time “right before Jesus returns,” which makes it the period of the last trumpet in Revelation 11 and the WRATH of God in verse 18. Such a dogma must downplay, sidestep, or manipulate that the saints are spared the WRATH of God (Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 5:9).

The rapture/resurrection of 1Thessalonians5:9-11 takes place before the 42 months of the beast-kings rule and the ten kings that rule with him.

The historist view is impossible to be correct.

All seven heads/kings are designated between Daniel and Revelation. The first five are Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and the papacy, the same as the sea beast. The sixth is the beast from the earth, and the seventh the image.

Jerry, those are kingdoms, not kings.

The proper rendering of Revelation 13 is pre-wrath, which supports historicism. Historicists don’t hold on one side of their mouth that the saints are spared tribulations; on the other, they are not.

The 7 vials of God's -wrath are poured out during on the earth during the 42 month reign of the beast-king.

The wrath of the Lamb, is when Jesus at His return executes judgment on the wicked of the world on behalf of the great tribulation martyrs.

Jerry, you still have not admitted that the Great Tribulation has not begun yet. It is till future, as is the 42 months of the beast-king.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

The rapture/resurrection of 1Thessalonians5:9-11 takes place before the 42 months of the beast-kings rule and the ten kings that rule with him.

The historist view is impossible to be correct.

First Thessalonians 4 states,

… the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. (1 Thessalonians 4:16)​

This agrees with Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 and the seventh trumpet in Revelation.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:52)​

And the seventh angel sounded… and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants… (Revelation 11:15, 18)​

Yet, the saints are spared the wrath (Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 5:9). You haven’t surmounted the evidence, but merely tried to downplay or sidestep it.

Jerry, those are kingdoms, not kings.

You’re trying to sidestep and downplay the precedent in Daniel that kings “are also” interpreted as kingdoms, and Rome is the one with the ten horns. You’re making things up again.

The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms… (Daniel 7:23)​

The sea beast in Revelation rises when the crowns are shifted to the ten horns, in parallel with Daniel 7:7-8 and Daniel 2:34 and 44. You’re trying to sidestep and downplay that Daniel 2:34 and 44 affirm Rome comes to an end when the ten kings receive their crowns, not at some future date and imagined neo-Rome. The historicist’s rendition conforms to the scriptures, while futurism distorts them.

The 7 vials of God-wrath are poured out during on the earth during the 42 month reign of the beast-king.

The wrath of the Lamb, is when Jesus at His return executes judgment on the wicked of the world on behalf of the great tribulation martyrs.

Jerry, you still have not admitted that the Great Tribulation has not begun yet. It is till future, as is the 42 months of the beast-king.

Why ask me questions when you won’t answer mine? Again, if the sixth kings are Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero, according to your convoluted interpretation, how is it that the future beast preceded Nero according to verses 9-11? You still haven’t answered that.

Where does it say the wrath lasts 42 months? You’re making that up by taking Revelation 13 out of context. Such a dogma must downplay, sidestep, or manipulate that the saints are spared the WRATH of God (Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 5:9). And that Daniel 2:34 and 44 affirm that Rome comes to an end when the ten kings receive their crowns, not at some future date and imagined neo-Rome. The historicist’s rendition conforms to the scriptures and history, while futurism distorts both. The true rendition of Revelation 13 must interpret the 42 months as a year-for-a-day, just like the 70 weeks in Daniel.

 

[Douggg]

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:52)
And the seventh angel sounded… and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants… (Revelation 11:15, 18)
Yet, the saints are spared the wrath (Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 5:9). You haven’t surmounted the evidence, but merely tried to downplay or sidestep it.

Jerry, the last trumpet in 1Corinthians15:52 is not referring to the 7th trumpet of Revelation. The rapture/resurrected Christians will already be in heaven before then.

The 7th trumpet signals the third woe, which is Satan's little time left of the time/times/half. After the accuser has been cast down to earth, in heaven the Bema seat of Jesus will take place and rewards given to Christians for what we did in our earthly bodies for the cause of Christ.

Why ask me questions when you won’t answer mine? Again, if the sixth kings are Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero, according to your convoluted interpretation, how is it that the future beast preceded Nero according to verses 9-11? You still haven’t answered that

Because your question is not a valid question. My question is valid because the Great Tribulation has not taken place yet, and you have yet to admit it has not - because that discredits the whole historist view.

Where does it say the wrath lasts 42 months?

Jerry, I never said "lasts 42 months", but within the 42 month reign of the beast-king.

The true rendition of Revelation 13 must interpret the 42 months as a year-for-a-day, just like the 70 weeks in Daniel.

No, it does not. During the 42 months of Revelation 13, the 666 buy/sell law of the false prophet will be in effect.

And history shows no evidence of a 42 months x 30 days/month = 1260 days that you are making up to be 1260 years, of there being a 666 buy/sell law which people of the earth had to abide by.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Jerry, the last trumpet in 1Corinthians15:52 is not referring to the 7th trumpet of Revelation. The rapture/resurrected Christians will already be in heaven before then.

The 7th trumpet signals the third woe, which is Satan's little time left of the time/times/half. After the accuser has been cast down to earth, in heaven the Bema seat of Jesus will take place and rewards given to Christians for what we did in our earthly bodies for the cause of Christ.

No, you’re wrong, Douglas. Revelation 11:15-18 says nothing about a time/times/half; you’re making that up. It does state that God’s wrath is come, and that the dead are judged, and the saints are given their reward, just like 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:52. While Romans 5:9; 1 and Thessalonians 1:10 and 5:9 support that the saints are spared the wrath, which vindicates the saints are caught up at the seventh trumpet and are absent on earth “right before Jesus returns.” All the aforementioned destroys your interpretation of Revelation 13 because the beast cannot make war and overcome the saints at that time, as verse 7 states.

Because your question is not a valid question. My question is valid because the Great Tribulation has not taken place yet, and you have yet to admit it has not - because that discredits the whole historist view.

My question is valid, Douglas because Revelation 17:10-11 affirms the sixth king reigns and that the scarlet beast is one of the five that had fallen and will rise as the eighth. That means the beast is out of power during the reigns of the sixth and seventh kings. Furthermore, Daniel supplies the first five kings/kingdoms representing Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and the papacy, the sea beast/little horn.

Admit that is what the passage means, Douglas, and answer my question, and then I’ll answer yours.

So again, I’ll answer your question when you answer mine. If the sixth kings are Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero, according to your convoluted interpretation, how is it that the future beast preceded Nero according to verses 9-11? You still haven’t answered that.

Jerry, I never said "lasts 42 months", but within the 42 month reign of the beast-king.

You’re evading the point; your dogma claims the beast is able to make war and overcome the saints at that time, as verse 7 states. And the reason why your claim is bogus was addressed above.

No, it does not. During the 42 months of Revelation 13, the 666 buy/sell law of the false prophet will be in effect.

And history shows no evidence of a 42 months x 30 days/month = 1260 days that you are making up to be 1260 years, of there being a 666 buy/sell law which people of the earth had to abide by.

Such a dogma must downplay, sidestep, or manipulate that the saints are spared the WRATH of God (Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 5:9). And that Daniel 2:34 and 44 affirm that Rome comes to an end when the ten kings receive their crowns, not at some future date and imagined neo-Rome. The historicist’s rendition conforms to the scriptures and history, while futurism distorts both. The true rendition of Revelation 13 must interpret the 42 months as a year-for-a-day, just like the 70 weeks in Daniel.

 

[Douggg]

No, you’re wrong, Douglas. Revelation 11:15-18 says nothing about a time/times/half; you’re making that up.

Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Trumpet judgements 5, 6, 7 are called woe to the inhabiters of the earth judgments.

John was made known what woe 1 (5th trumpet) and woe 2 (6th trumpet) will be in Revelation 9. Woe 7 to the inhabiters of the earth is in Revelation 12:12, Satan cast down to earth having a time/times/half left.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Admit that is what the passage means, Douglas, and answer my question, and then I’ll answer yours.

So again, I’ll answer your question when you answer mine.

Jerry, I have already gone over why your question is invalid, a multitude of times. You are the one saying the eighth king preceded Nero (king 6). I stated that the eighth king is king 7 who continues the "short space" (as it says in the text of Revelation 17:10) of 42 months as the eighth king. You also changed kings in the text to kingdoms. And you also changed 42 months into 1260 years.

Differently, my question is simple and not presumptuous, and is not invalid, because Jesus said that there would be great tribulation as was never before and will never be again, beginning when the abomination of desolation is setup in the holy place.

Do you admit that the great tribulation has not taken place yet ?

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Trumpet judgements 5, 6, 7 are called woe to the inhabiters of the earth judgments.

John was made known what woe 1 (5th trumpet) and woe 2 (6th trumpet) will be in Revelation 9. Woe 7 to the inhabiters of the earth is in Revelation 12:12, Satan cast down to earth having a time/times/half left.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Apparently, you’re going to continue to shirk the implications of the third woe Douglas, which 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:52 support. The passage affirms the last trump, and catching up, the first resurrection precedes the wrath just before Christ returns. The saints are not on the earth at that time, which is also supported by Romans 5:9, 1 Thessalonians 1:10, and 5:9, affirming the saints are spared the wrath.

Revelation 11:15-18 affirm the wrath of God is confined to the third woe, so your dogma about the phrase “the inhabiters of the earth” and Chapter 13 are rubbish, fit for the fire (1 Corinthians 3:13). The power given the beast to “overcome the saints” is taken from it during the great tribulations, which confirms Revelation 13 is historical, in the past. The great tribulations are to separate the wheat from the tares, which is conspicuously absent in your dogma.

Historicists don’t hold on one side of their mouth that the saints are spared tribulations; on the other, they are not.

Jerry, I have already gone over why your question is invalid, a multitude of times. You are the one saying the eighth king preceded Nero (king 6). I stated that the eighth king is king 7 who continues the "short space" (as it says in the text of Revelation 17:10) of 42 months as the eighth king. You also changed kings in the text to kingdoms. And you also changed 42 months into 1260 years.

Differently, my question is simple and not presumptuous, and is not invalid, because Jesus said that there would be great tribulation as was never before and will never be again, beginning when the abomination of desolation is setup in the holy place.

Do you admit that the great tribulation has not taken place yet ?

Your presumptions “are” in the failure to grasp passages like Revelation 17:9-11 and Revelation 13:7 and think you can school others! I’m not going to let you sidestep those failures and move on, which you continually attempt. These failures are foundational to your misguided futurism, and unless they are corrected, the truth about the “great tribulations” is beyond your comprehension. Let me cite a relevant text which summarizes your obliviousness in the matter.

Who among you will give ear to this? Who will hearken and hear for the time to come? Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law. Therefore he hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart. (Isaiah 42:23-25)​

My opening posts, which obviously you didn't read, were thoroughly documented and established that the Protestants were the ones that secularized society by their intercourse with the kings of the earth, which enriched the merchants of the earth. They were conformed to the world, and the Church went along with it in its attitude that it was “rich and increased with goods, and had need of nothing.” Such conformity to the world has consequences, which is what Isaiah is about above. God was judging them all along for their conformity to the world, but they refused to see it. Preterism and futurism and many historicists are in the same boat; they are “wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked,” and refuse to see that "we" are under God’s judgment currently.

My question is valid, Douglas because Revelation 17:10-11 affirms the sixth king reigns and that the scarlet beast is one of the five that had fallen and will rise as the eighth. That means the beast is out of power during the reigns of the sixth and seventh kings.

Admit that is what the passage means, Douglas, and answer my question, and I’ll answer yours.

So again, I’ll answer your question when you answer mine. If the sixth kings are Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero, according to your convoluted interpretation, how is it that the future beast preceded Nero according to verses 9-11? You still haven’t answered that.

 

[Douggg]

Historicists don’t hold on one side of their mouth that the saints are spared tribulations; on the other, they are not.

The rapture/resurrestion will take place before the Great Tribulation begins, and those Christians will not be here on earth.

Once the Great Tribulation begins, there will be multitudes who turn to Jesus during the Great Tribulation. Those are the ones in Revelation 7:9-14.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

The rapture/resurrestion will take place before the Great Tribulation begins, and those Christians will not be here on earth.

Once the Great Tribulation begins, there will be multitudes who turn to Jesus during the Great Tribulation. Those are the ones in Revelation 7:9-14.

The “catching up” or resurrection is confined to the last trump at the time of the wrath of God in Revelation 11:15-18. This is supported by 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 1 Corinthians 15:52, Romans 5:9, 1 Thessalonians 1:10, and 5:9. The great multitude in Revelation 7, as well as those who are sealed, are the saints, who must endure the previous two woes before the resurrection occurs.

You keep trying to skirt that Christ mediates the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24), which is not about the Jews in a rebuilt temple, but about the Church and the temple built without hands.

If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 2:3-5)​

 

[Douggg]

The “catching up” or resurrection is confined to the last trump at the time of the wrath of God in Revelation 11:15-18. This is supported by 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 1 Corinthians 15:52, Romans 5:9, 1 Thessalonians 1:10, and 5:9. The great multitude in Revelation 7, as well as those who are sealed, are the saints, who must endure the previous two woes before the resurrection occurs.

So you are saying since the rapture/resurrection has not taken place - then neither has the Great Tribulation ?

 

[Jerryhuerta]

So you are saying since the rapture/resurrection has not taken place - then neither has the Great Tribulation ?

Who among you will give ear to this? Who will hearken and hear for the time to come? Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law. Therefore he hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart. (Isaiah 42:23-25)​

My opening posts, which obviously you didn't read, were thoroughly documented and established that the Protestants were the ones that secularized society by their intercourse with the kings of the earth, which enriched the merchants of the earth. They were conformed to the world, and the Church went along with it in its attitude that it was “rich and increased with goods, and had need of nothing.” Such conformity to the world has consequences, which is what Isaiah is about above. God was judging them all along for their conformity to the world, but they refused to see it. Preterism and futurism, and many historicists are in the same boat; they are “wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked,” and refuse to see that "we" are under God’s judgment currently.

 

[Douggg]

The “catching up” or resurrection is confined to the last trump at the time of the wrath of God in Revelation 11:15-18. This is supported by 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 1 Corinthians 15:52, Romans 5:9, 1 Thessalonians 1:10, and 5:9. The great multitude in Revelation 7, as well as those who are sealed, are the saints, who must endure the previous two woes before the resurrection occurs.

Jerry, why don't you make a chart of the rapture timing window in your view - so people understand what you are talking about.

Here is mine... The rapture will take place before the Day of the Lord begins and the Abomination of Desolation and the Great Tribulation. I make my charts using Corel Paintshop Pro.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Jerry, why don't you make a chart of the rapture timing window in your view - so people understand what you are talking about.

Here is mine... The rapture will take place before the Day of the Lord begins and the Abomination of Desolation and the Great Tribulation. I make my charts using Corel Paintshop Pro.


View attachment 333721

I don't have to make a chart. It's plain and simple. The “catching up” or resurrection is confined to the last trump at the time of the wrath of God in Revelation 11:15-18. This is supported by 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 1 Corinthians 15:52, Romans 5:9, 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and 5:9.

As to the great tribulations,

Who among you will give ear to this? Who will hearken and hear for the time to come? Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law. Therefore he hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart. (Isaiah 42:23-25)​

My opening posts, which obviously you didn't read, were thoroughly documented and established that the Protestants were the ones that secularized society by their intercourse with the kings of the earth, which enriched the merchants of the earth. They were conformed to the world, and the Church went along with it in its attitude that it was “rich and increased with goods, and had need of nothing.” Such conformity to the world has consequences, which is what Isaiah is about above. God was judging them all along for their conformity to the world, but they refused to see it. Preterism and futurism, and many historicists are in the same boat; they are “wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked,” and refuse to see that "we" are under God’s judgment currently.

 

[Douggg]

don't have to make a chart. It's plain and simple. The “catching up” or resurrection is confined to the last trump at the time of the wrath of God in Revelation 11:15-18

Jerry, you are taking one variable in interpretation (the last trump) and verbally tiying it to another variable (the wrath of God) in interpretation. The one fixed point is the day that Jesus Returns to this earth in Revelation 19. You have been not tying to that fixed point.

A timeline chart is the best way to tie all of those variables in interpretation that people have, to the concluding fixed event - the day that Jesus returns to this earth in Revelation 19 - because all of the events in Revelation lead up to that day.

So when does your view of the rapture window tie to the day that Jesus returns in Revelation 19 ?

---------------------------------------------------------------

Jerry, when you buy a new item, like a piece of furniture that you have assemble the various parts - they give you pictures in the instructions on how to assemble the parts.

In assembling the parts to Revelation - you have made no picture. And Revelation is far more complex than a piece of furniture.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Jerry, you are taking one variable in interpretation (the last trump) and verbally tiying it to another variable (the wrath of God) in interpretation. The one fixed point is the day that Jesus Returns to this earth in Revelation 19. You have been not tying to that fixed point.

A timeline chart is the best way to tie all of those variables in interpretation that people have, to the concluding fixed event - the day that Jesus returns to this earth in Revelation 19 - because all of the events in Revelation lead up to that day.

So when does your view of the rapture window tie to the day that Jesus returns in Revelation 19 ?

---------------------------------------------------------------

Jerry, when you buy a new item, like a piece of furniture that you have assemble the various parts - they give you pictures in the instructions on how to assemble the parts.

In assembling the parts to Revelation - you have made no picture. And Revelation is far more complex than a piece of furniture.

It says at the last trump the time of God's wrath comes and the time of the resurrection, or in other words, the time the dead in Christ receive their reward. God didn't use charts, so neither will I.

My answers aren't going to change, so why keep repeating the same thing over and over again? To me, that's a form of trolling.

As to the great tribulations,

Who among you will give ear to this? Who will hearken and hear for the time to come? Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law. Therefore he hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart. (Isaiah 42:23-25)​

My opening posts, which obviously you didn't read, were thoroughly documented and established that the Protestants were the ones that secularized society by their intercourse with the kings of the earth, which enriched the merchants of the earth. They were conformed to the world, and the Church went along with it in its attitude that it was “rich and increased with goods, and had need of nothing.” Such conformity to the world has consequences, which is what Isaiah is about above. God was judging them all along for their conformity to the world, but they refused to see it. Preterism and futurism, and many historicists are in the same boat; they are “wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked,” and refuse to see that "we" are under God’s judgment currently.

 

[Douggg]

It says at the last trump the time of God's wrath comes and the time of the resurrection, or in other words, the time the dead in Christ receive their reward. God didn't use charts, so neither will I.

But you are not God. It says at the last trumpet, not the seventh trumpet - you are making an assumption.

As to the great tribulations,

Who among you will give ear to this? Who will hearken and hear for the time to come? Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law. Therefore he hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart. (Isaiah 42:23-25)

You may have made a typo. It is not great tribulations - plural. But great tribulation - singular.

The great tribulation begins in the time of the end, Daniel 12-9, not historic, when animals sacrifices are stopped and the abomination of desolation setup up. 1290 days and 1335 days are associated with the abomination of desolation, Daniel 12:9-12.

The 7 trumpet judgements and the 7 bowls of God's wrath and the wrath of the Lamb are in Revelation - not Isaiah.

The 7 year 70th week, which has components of 1260 days, 3 1/2 days, 42 months, a time/time/half time, 1290 days, and 1335 days, and the 2300 days of the little horn vision that Daniel had in Daniel 8 - all fit within the 7 year 70th week.

There is no biblical text having the 42 months in it, that says those are 1260 years.

Preterism and futurism, and many historicists are in the same boat; they are “wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked,” and refuse to see that "we" are under God’s judgment currently.

We are not in the great tribulation timeframe - that begins with the abomination of desolation setup on the temple mount. That is still future.

Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

The historist view does not recognize that the great tribulation that Jesus spoke of, referring to Daniel prophet, when the end shall come, is time of the end.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Jesus is Lord, not you, Jerry. Jesus did not post on the internet. Yet, here you are posting, not following His example.

1Corinthians15:52 does not say seventh trumpet. You are not paying attention, as usual.

Didn’t I just write Christ is Lord; you’re trying to steal my thunder, Douglas. And Christ did not use charts to get the truth across. And the Bible is supposed to agree, Douglas, which you seem to disregard a great deal. When Paul is writing about the resurrection, he’s supposed to agree with John when he does the same. Apparently, you disagree with that precept.

I challenge you to find anywhere in Revelation, following Revelation 11:15-18, of a verse having the word woe in it, other than Revelation 12:12
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time..

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The third woe lasts a time, times, half a time.

The time, times, half a time coincides with the 42 months reign of the beast-king. Both are within the 1335 days of the Great Tribulation.

The “wrath” is Revelation 12:12 is the devil’s, while the “wrath” in Revelation 11:18 is God’s; you’re resorting to your MO of not paying attention. And the saints are spared the wrath God, not the devil’s. Read Hebrews Chapter 12:7-8.

Today ? and not hsitoric ? Of course Daniel 12:4 is talking about the present time. We are living in the time of the end. The parable of the fig tree generation. Daniel 12:9 agrees with Daniel 12:4.

Yeah, and the books are opened, and by them, we can see that apostate Protestantism is the harlot Babylon, who, in the time the New World was discovered, and knowledge and trade increased, secularized society to enrich the merchants of the earth.

My opening posts, which obviously you didn't read, were thoroughly documented and established that the Protestants were the ones that secularized society by their intercourse with the kings of the earth, which enriched the merchants of the earth. They were conformed to the world, and the Church went along with it in its attitude that it was “rich and increased with goods, and had need of nothing.” Such conformity to the world has consequences, which is what Isaiah is about above. God was judging them all along for their conformity to the world, but they refused to see it. Preterism and futurism, and many historicists are in the same boat; they are “wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked,” and refuse to see that we are under God’s judgment currently.

Again, Revelation 17:10-11 affirms the sixth king reigns and that the scarlet beast is one of the five that had fallen and will rise as the eighth. That means the beast is out of power during the reigns of the sixth and seventh kings.

So again, if the sixth kings are Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero, according to your convoluted interpretation, how is it that the future beast preceded Nero according to verses 9-11? You still haven’t answered that.

 

[Douggg]

The “wrath” is Revelation 12:12 is the devil’s, while the “wrath” in Revelation 11:18 is God’s; you’re resorting to your MO of not paying attention.

Does Revelation 12:12 say "woe to the inhabiters of the earth" ?

Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

The third woe to the inhabiters of the earth lasts a time/times/half time.

The 7th angel sounds, then the war in the second heaven, then Satan kicked down to earth - the third woe begins and lasts a time/time/half time.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Does Revelation 12:12 say "woe to the inhabiters of the earth" ?

Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

The third woe to the inhabiters of the earth lasts a time/times/half time.

The 7th angel sounds, then the war in the second heaven, then Satan kicked down to earth - the third woe begins and lasts a time/time/half time.


View attachment 333740

The “wrath” in Revelation 12:12 is the devil’s, while the “wrath” in Revelation 11:18 is God’s; you haven't surmounted the distinction. The saints are spared the wrath of God, not the devil’s. Read Hebrew 12:7-8. In Revelation 11:18, the saints meet Christ in the air, insomuch as they are spared the wrath of God and the time of the resurrection has come. In Revelation 12, "the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ," which is clearly pre-wrath of God and the saints remain on the earth.

Again, Revelation 17:10-11 affirms the sixth king reigns and that the scarlet beast is one of the five that had fallen and will rise as the eighth. That means the beast is out of power during the reigns of the sixth and seventh kings.

So again, if the sixth kings are Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero, according to your convoluted interpretation, how is it that the future beast preceded Nero according to verses 9-11? You still haven’t answered my question.

 

[Douggg]

The “wrath” in Revelation 12:12 is the devil’s, while the “wrath” in Revelation 11:18 is God’s; you haven't surmounted the distinction.

Does the wrath in Revelation 11:18 say woe to the inhabiters of the earth in the text? No, it does not. You haven't surmounted the distinction - between the trumpet judgements and the bowls of God's wrath judgments.

The wrath of God is in the bowls of God's wrath in Revelation 16 to poured out during the Great Tribulation.
The wrath of Satan is a trumpet woe, the third trumpet woe, and is initiated when the seventh trumpet angel sounds. Also during the Great Tribulation.

The rapture/resurrection will taken place before the Day of the Lord, which contains the Great Tribulation, begins.... as shown on my chart below.

 

[FreeinChrist]

ADVISOR HAT

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