The Rich Merchants in the True Structuring of the Revelation

[Douggg]

The horns or toes received their crowns when Rome fell, which destroys your futurist's misrepresentations. You haven’t surmounted the history of the ten horns. Revelation 13 is about the rise of the papacy. Revelation 12, 13, and 17 are linear narrations.

Saying the horns received their crowns when Rome fell does not make it factual.

The ten horns have their crowns in Revelation 13. In Revelation 13:5 , the beast king rules for 42 months before Jesus returns to cast him and the false prophet into the lake of fire. That has not happened yet, Jerry. Admit it.

 

[Douggg]

The Temple that the A/C desecrates is already built. It is not on the Dome of the Rock but in King George Street.

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And the Russian war does not include all the inner Middle East Islamic nations, only Iran. Remember that the A/C deceives the other nations and thus will control them. Also, Islam is very, very rich and not in debt like the Western nations. Who relies on whose oil? And who is doing all the killing of Christians?

King George street ? There are going to be animal sacrifices by the Jews going on - which the Antichrist stops. Those animal sacrifices can only take place on the temple mount.

 

[Truth7t7]

Jesus's return
The beast-king and the false prophet - into the lake of fire
Satan - into the bottomless pit prison

1000 years later
Satan released from the bottomless pit prison - and he deceives the nations into one last rebellion. Which God puts down.
Satan then is cast into the lake of fire - where the beast-king and the false prophet are, and will have been for a thousand years..

Wrong

Jesus returns in fire and final judgment, dissolving this earth by fire (The End) there won't be a 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom on this earth as you continue to claim over and over, it's a man made fairy tale fou d no place in scripture

 

[Douggg]

Wrong

Jesus returns in fire and final judgment, dissolving this earth by fire (The End) there won't be a 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom on this earth as you continue to claim over and over, it's a man made fairy tale fou d no place in scripture

Try to stick to Jerry's topic of the historist view regarding the pope and papacy.

 

[Marilyn C]

King George street ? There are going to be animal sacrifices by the Jews going on - which the Antichrist stops. Those animal sacrifices can only take place on the temple mount.

Who says?

 

[Douggg]

Who says?

The Jews, who will be conducting the animal sacrifices. From their Chabad.org site....

Where Were Sacrifices Brought?​

Once the Holy Temple was built, sacrifices could only be brought on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem,15 and it was forbidden to bring sacrifices anywhere else.16 This prohibition is in effect today as well, effectively making it impossible to sacrifice.17

Links: Leviticus 17:1–9. Maimonides, Maaseh Hakorbanot, ch. 18.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

I said Satan was not in the bottomless pit.

Then the scarlet beast is not Satan but another beast, just like in Daniel 7, which makes it a kingdom, not an ephemeral person. The beast is the papacy that was wounded when the Protestants secularized society, ending the papacy’s legitimization of the kings of Europe, depicted by the missing crowns in Revelation 17.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Saying the horns received their crowns when Rome fell does not make it factual.

The ten horns have their crowns in Revelation 13. In Revelation 13:5 , the beast king rules for 42 months before Jesus returns to cast him and the false prophet into the lake of fire. That has not happened yet, Jerry. Admit it.

Is that what you are here for, Douglas? Are you that narcissistic, thinking that you can coerce people into admitting you have the truth?

History doesn’t conform to your hubris. According to Daniel 2:34 and 7:7-8, we are to look for the horns at the end of the Roman Empire. Futurists insist that we are to look for them in some future rebirth of the Roman Empire. That’s where you get the outrageous assertion that the eighth head must be a person from the Julio-Claudian bloodline. Such a notion does not surmount that the iron legs end and the feet commence on the image in Daniel, which represents the end of the Roman Empire and the commencement of the reign of the ten kings, illustrated by the toes and horns.

You’ve admitted that the illustration of the dragon before the woman, ready to devour her child, is historical, which makes the red dragon a representation of the Roman Empire in Revelation 12. But Rome ends, and the little horn rises amongst the ten horns, which represents the time denoted by the feet in Daniel 2:34, and that affirms we are to look for the little horn after the Roman empire has ended and gone, and the horns or kings have received their dominions. This is precisely what the illustration in Revelation 13 affirms by the crowns shifting from the heads to the horns. Revelation 13 illustrates the rise of the papacy as it legitimized the kings of the Germanic tribes that supplanted Rome. That’s historical.

The horns or toes received their crowns when Rome fell, which destroys your futurist's misrepresentations. You haven’t surmounted the history of the ten horns. Revelation 13 is about the rise of the papacy. Revelation 12, 13, and 17 are linear narrations.

 

[Douggg]

You’ve admitted that the illustration of the dragon before the woman, ready to devour her child, is historical, which makes the red dragon a representation of the Roman Empire in Revelation 12.

The red dragon in the text of Revelation 12 says it is Satan, not the Roman Empire.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

But Rome ends, and the little horn rises amongst the ten horns, which represents the time denoted by the feet in Daniel 2:34, and that affirms we are to look for the little horn after the Roman empire has ended and gone, and the horns or kings have received their dominions.

The little horn in Daniel 8 and the vision about him is time of the end - in the text of Daniel 8, Jerry.

Daniel 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

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Jerry, can you admit that the beast and the false prophet have not yet been cast into the lake of fire, Revelation 19:20 ? It is a simple yes or no, type question.

 

[Marilyn C]

The Jews, who will be conducting the animal sacrifices. From their Chabad.org site....

Where Were Sacrifices Brought?​

Once the Holy Temple was built, sacrifices could only be brought on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem,15 and it was forbidden to bring sacrifices anywhere else.16 This prohibition is in effect today as well, effectively making it impossible to sacrifice.17

Thank you for looking into that, Douggg. I do believe as you do that the sacrifices would be done outside the Temple where Solomon`s was. However, if that was not possible at the time would the Jews do sacrifices elsewhere till the right Temple was built?

 

[Jerryhuerta]

The red dragon in the text of Revelation 12 says it is Satan, not the Roman Empire.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

That’s baloney. The lion with eagle’s wings signifies Babylon in Daniel 7. God uses beasts to illustrate kingdoms, and any expositor worth his weight in salt interprets the red dragon in Revelation 12:3 as pagan Rome. It used its puppet Herod to try and kill the infant Christ. That doesn’t refute that Satan is behind the symbolic beasts in the Bible. All the beasts in Revelation represent kingdoms, not individual persons, insomuch as the precedent is Daniel, just as the seven kings and ten horns.

The little horn in Daniel 8 and the vision about him is time of the end - in the text of Daniel 8, Jerry.

Daniel 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

-------------------------------------------

Jerry, can you admit that the beast and the false prophet have not yet been cast into the lake of fire, Revelation 19:20 ? It is a simple yes or no, type question.

According to the NT, Douglas, we have been in the time of the end, the last days, since the first advent.

For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Hebrews 9:26​

​

But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer. 1 Peter 4:7​

​

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams. Acts 2:17​

As to the little horn in Daniel 8, both the Roman Empire and the papacy both came from out of the Western Macedonian dominion and “waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.” The historical accounts relate that the Roman Empire conquered Macedonia, waxing exceeding greater than Alexander, “towards the south, and towards the east, and towards the pleasant land” (Daniel 8:9). Rome expanded to the south, and Egypt was ultimately made a province in 30 BC. Antiochus Magnus was defeated by Rome and made to pay tribute, and Syria became a Roman province in 65 BC, as Rome expanded east. The pleasant land is Judea and Rome made it a province in 63 BC.

Yet, the papacy mirrored Rome as the little horn in Daniel 8. Pope Urban II sanctioned the first Crusade that invaded the pleasant land from the same western dominion that was once Macedonia and inevitably took possession of Jerusalem for the pope in AD 1099. The fourth Crusade sacked Constantinople in AD 1204, which fulfilled the criterion that the little horn waxed exceeding great to the east. In AD 1218, the Fifth Crusade besieged the Egyptian port of Damietta and held it for two years at the completion of the siege, fulfilling the criterion that the little horn waxed exceeding great to the south.

And it was by Rome that “the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.” And it was Rome that gave the papacy its power, seat, and authority to legitimize the horns in Daniel 7, having them worship the beast, which is a defilement of the mediation of Christ in the most holy. And as I’ve held from the beginning, the beast is cast into the lake of fire at the second advent (Revelation 19:20). Like I said earlier, Douglas, sloppy reading.

Yet you still cling to the gross misrepresentation that the eighth king is the risen seventh, in contradiction to what the passage in question states.

And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. (Revelation 17:10-11)​

The angel tells John that the king that reigns is the sixth. And then he states, “and the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth,” which affirms the eighth head had previously reigned as one of the fallen five and rises again as the eighth. The scarlet beast “was, and is not” during the reigns of the sixth and seventh kings.

It’s a conundrum that goes over your head, apparently. That’s why it takes wisdom to understand; unfortunately, you fail.

You’re trying to change the “perspective of time” from the “future” to the “past” in determining the king that “is.” And therein lies all your misrepresentation, like every futurist.

So, if the sixth kings are Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero, according to your convoluted interpretation, how is it that the future beast preceded Nero according to verses 9-11? You still haven’t answered that.

 

[Douggg]

That’s baloney. The lion with eagle’s wings signifies Babylon in Daniel 7. God uses beasts to illustrate kingdoms, and any expositor worth his weight in salt interprets the red dragon in Revelation 12:3 as pagan Rome. It used its puppet Herod to try and kill the infant Christ. That doesn’t refute that Satan is behind the symbolic beasts in the Bible.

Jerry, why would be baloney, when I copied directly from the text of Revelation 12:7-9 that the great dragon is Satan ?

All the beasts in Revelation represent kingdoms, not individual persons, insomuch as the precedent is Daniel, just as the seven kings and ten horns.

Really, then why does it say in Daniel 7:25 17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

Beasts can represent both kings and kingdoms.

 

[Douggg]

According to the NT, Douglas, we have been in the time of the end, the last days, since the first advent.

Jerry, the time of the end is noted by what it say in Daniel 12:4.

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

You’re trying to change the “perspective of time” from the “future” to the “past” in determining the king that “is.” And therein lies all your misrepresentation, like every futurist.

Jerry, the king that "is" was Nero. It is the seventh king, the future little horn who becomes king eight, the beast-king.

So, if the sixth kings are Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero, according to your convoluted interpretation, how is it that the future beast preceded Nero according to verses 9-11? You still haven’t answered that.

Jerry, we have been over that about a million times already.

But you still have not admitted that the beast and the false prophet have not yet been cast into the lake of fire, Revelation 19:20.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[Marilyn C]

The Jews, who will be conducting the animal sacrifices. From their Chabad.org site....

Where Were Sacrifices Brought?​

Once the Holy Temple was built, sacrifices could only be brought on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem,15 and it was forbidden to bring sacrifices anywhere else.16 This prohibition is in effect today as well, effectively making it impossible to sacrifice.17

Hi Douggg,

Thanks for getting this topic going. However, I wont take your thread off topic but will start another one just on the Temple and sacrifices as I`ve found out something very interesting.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Jerry, why would be baloney, when I copied directly from the text of Revelation 12:7-9 that the great dragon is Satan ?

Because expositors worth their weight in salt interprets the red dragon in Revelation 12:3 as pagan Rome. It used its puppet Herod to try and kill the infant Christ. And because Daniel’s fourth beast, Rome, is the one with the ten horns. That doesn’t refute that Satan is behind the symbolic beasts in the Bible.

You sure like to make things up by proof-texting.

Really, then why does it say in Daniel 7:25 17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

Beasts can represent both kings and kingdoms.

Like I said, Douglas, sloppy reading.

The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms… (Daniel 7:23)​

Again, you sure like to make things up by proof-texting. They represent kings "and" kingdoms.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Jerry, the time of the end is noted by what it say in Daniel 12:4.

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

But the NT sheds more light on the inter-advent age.

For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Hebrews 9:26​

​

But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer. 1 Peter 4:7​

​

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams. Acts 2:17​

​

Jerry, the king that "is" was Nero. It is the seventh king, the future little horn who becomes king eight, the beast-king.

An intelligent and God-inspired interpretation reveals that the seven kings are kingdoms, maintaining Daniel as the precedent. And besides, you still haven’t explained how your future beast precedes Nero.

Jerry, we have been over that about a million times already.

But you still have not admitted that the beast and the false prophet have not yet been cast into the lake of fire, Revelation 19:20.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Again, as I’ve held from the beginning of this thread, the beast is cast into the lake of fire at the second advent (Revelation 19:20). You’re just making things up again.

And again, I’ll keep repeating it because you either are incapable of comprehending Revelation 17:10-11, or you’re in denial.

The passage affirms the sixth king reigns, and the scarlet beast is one of the five that had fallen and will rise as the eighth. That means the beast is out of power during the reigns of the sixth and seventh kings.

So again, if the sixth kings are Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero, according to your convoluted interpretation, how is it that the future beast preceded Nero according to verses 9-11? You still haven’t answered that.

 

[Douggg]

Again, as I’ve held from the beginning of this thread, the beast is cast into the lake of fire at the second advent (Revelation 19:20).

Jerry, since the person rules 42 months right before Jesus returns, that makes the beast future, time of the end, not historic.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Jerry, since the person rules 42 months right before Jesus returns, that makes the beast future, time of the end, not historic.

So, you admit you were telling a big whopper and that I hadn’t avoided the question from the very beginning, right?

The problem with your avoiding my question is that it leads to your silly timelines that have the saints fall under God's WRATH.

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. (Revelation 13:5-7)​

You have the 42 months come precisely at the time of the WRATH, and the saints are not only under it but under the power of the antichrist, the beast.

And the seventh angel sounded… And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. (Revelation 11:15, 18)​

The saints receive their reward just prior to Christ’s return, according to God’s word. God’s word affirms the saints are not appointed to WRATH.

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Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. (Romans 5:9)​

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And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. (1 Thessalonians 1:10)​

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For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thessalonians 5:9)​

This is what comes of avoiding my question pertaining to Revelation 17:10-11.

The passage affirms the sixth king reigns and that the scarlet beast is one of the five that had fallen and will rise as the eighth. That means the beast is out of power during the reigns of the sixth and seventh kings.

So again, if the sixth kings are Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero, according to your convoluted interpretation, how is it that the future beast preceded Nero according to verses 9-11? You still haven’t answered that.

 

[Douggg]

So, you admit you were telling a big whopper and that I hadn’t avoided the question from the very beginning, haven’t you?

The problem with your avoiding my question is that it leads to your silly timelines that have the saints fall under God's WRATH.

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. (Revelation 13:5-7)​

You have the 42 months come precisely at the time of the WRATH, and the saints are not only under it but under the power of the antichrist, the beast.

And the seventh angel sounded… And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. (Revelation 11:15, 18)​

The saints receive their reward just prior to Christ’s return, according to God’s word. God’s word affirms the saints are not appointed to WRATH.

​

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. (Romans 5:9)​

​

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. (1 Thessalonians 1:10)​

​

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thessalonians 5:9)​

This is what comes of avoiding my question pertaining to Revelation 17:10-11.

The passage affirms the sixth king reigns and that the scarlet beast is one of the five that had fallen and will rise as the eighth. That means the beast is out of power during the reigns of the sixth and seventh kings.

So again, if the sixth kings are Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero, according to your convoluted interpretation, how is it that the future beast preceded Nero according to verses 9-11? You still haven’t answered that.

Jerry, the rapture/resurrection event will take place before the Great Tribulation begins.

After the rapture/resurrection, many will become Christians during the Great Tribulation. Those are the Great Tribulation saints that will be persecuted during the 42 months of the beast-king's reign.

Jesus returns to end the beast-king's reign and the Great Tribulation, and casts both the beast-king and the false prophet alive into the lake of fire in Revelation 19:20.

So those 42 months make it impossible for the historist view to be correct. The ten kings have their crowns also during the 42 months beast-king's regn - future, not historic.

Jerry, do you admit that the Great Tribulation has not begun yet ?

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Jerry, the rapture/resurrection event will take place before the Great Tribulation begins.

After the rapture/resurrection, many will become Christians during the Great Tribulation. Those are the Great Tribulation saints that will be persecuted during the 42 months of the beast-king's reign.

Jesus returns to end the beast-king's reign and the Great Tribulation, and casts both the beast-king and the false prophet alive into the lake of fire in Revelation 19:20.

So those 42 months make it impossible for the historist view to be correct. The ten kings have their crowns also during the 42 months beast-king's regn - future, not historic.

Jerry, do you admit that the Great Tribulation has not begun yet ?

I disagree with dogmas that proof-text, sidestep, take Biblical passages out of context, and are ignorant of history in general, Douglas. Futurists’ dogmas are guilty of all these transgressions.

Case in point, futurists proof-text Revelation 13 and say it represents the time “right before Jesus returns,” which makes it the period of the last trumpet in Revelation 11 and the WRATH of God in verse 18. Such a dogma must downplay, sidestep, or manipulate that the saints are spared the WRATH of God (Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 5:9).

The proper rendering of Revelation 13 is pre-wrath, which supports historicism. Historicists don’t hold on one side of their mouth that the saints are spared tribulations; on the other, they are not.

Rendering Chapter 13 as pre-wrath agrees with Chapter 17, specifically that the sixth king reigns and that the scarlet beast is one of the five that had fallen and will rise as the eighth. The beast is out of power during the reigns of the sixth and seventh kings, making the sixth the beast that rises from the earth and the seventh the image. All seven heads/kings are designated between Daniel and Revelation. The first five are Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and the papacy, the same as the sea beast. The sixth is the beast from the earth, and the seventh the image.

Futurists downplay or sidestep that the WRATH of God is confined to the last trump in Revelation 11:15-18, which establishes that the saints will endure the tribulations of the prior trumpets, albeit under the protection of God. It is when God will start to separate the wheat from the tares, so they must be sealed and come out of Babylon (Revelation 7, 8). This is affirmed in the fifth seal.

… rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. (Revelation 6:11)​

This is said to those “that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held,” which are clearly the saints.