The Rich Merchants in the True Structuring of the Revelation

[David Kent]

You misrepresent me. I argued against the kings in Revelation 17:10 as being renamed as "kingdoms". They are kings not kingdoms.


The seven heads are not "renamed" kings. The seven heads "represent" seven kings. Just like the ten horns are not "renamed" kings. The ten horns "represent" ten kings.


The eighth king, the beast king of the end times, is of the seven other kings. It is the eighth king, the beast king that will be cast into the lake of fire at Jesus's return.

Differently, at Jesus's return, Satan is cast into the bottomless pit for a thousand years. It is therefore - impossible for Satan to be the eighth king.

Jesus's return
The beast-king and the false prophet - into the lake of fire
Satan - into the bottomless pit prison

1000 years later
Satan released from the bottomless pit prison - and he deceives the nations into one last rebellion. Which God puts down.
Satan then is cast into the lake of fire - where the beast-king and the false prophet are, and will have been for a thousand years..

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

So where is the gap in the image between the seventh head and the eighth? How is it connected to the seven horns? How does he overthrow 3 of the 10? How is the image still standing if there is a gap of over 1700 years?

 

[Douggg]

So where is the gap in the image between the seventh head and the eighth?

The seventh king will be the end times little horn person. Leader over ten EU leaders. His emergence in that role is what is the next prophecy to be be fulfilled.

Then Gog/Magog will take place. And right after Gog/Magog is over, the little horn, as the prince who shall come, and his EU army come into the middle east on premise of peace keeper. But the underlying motive for the EU will be to secure all the oil in the region for themselves.

The Jews at time will think the little horn person is their messiah, and he is anointed the King of Israel (coming in his own name). Which officially makes the person the Antichrist in that role. The false messianic age of the world saying peace and safety begins then.

After becoming the King of Israel, three years thereabouts go by and the so-called King of Israel messiah does the unexpected. He goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood. That act reveals himself to be the revealed man of sin and not the messiah as the Jews will have first thought.

The Jews will be mortified by the act and will no longer accept him as their King of Israel. End of his time in the role of being the Antichrist.

God, angered by the person's audacious act and claim, has the person assassinated, Ezekiel 28:1-10. Then once his soul is in hell, God does not let him remain there, nor have the honor of being buried in a fanciful tomb. In disdain for the person, God returns his soul to his lifeless body. Isaiah 14:18-20.

To the world, who will witness his being killed and coming back to life , his recovery will seem to fortify his claim of having achieved God-hood. But it will be the strong delusion that God sends to them who initially believed his claim of having achieved God-hood.

Come back to life, the person becomes possessed by the spirit of the garden of serpent beast that comes out the bottomless pit. Thus, the person from then on out is known as the beast-king of Revelation 13.

In Revelation 17:17, the ten EU leaders hand their EU kingdom over to him to be the dictator of the EU, the kingdom of the beast-king.

How does he overthrow 3 of the 10?

It does not say in Daniel 7 that the 3 kings are part of the 10 kings or not. But assuming they are, they probably don't agree to go along with the little horn's agenda over some point(s), so he removes them by the power he has been granted. We really aren't told for sure . I am making an educated guess.

If the 3 kings are part of the original 10 kings. They will be replaced because the number of 10 kings must be consitent until Jesus returns - because the 10 kings hand their EU kingdom over to the beast-king in Revelation 17:17.

How is the image still standing if there is a gap of over 1700 years?

It does not. The Daniel 11, abomination of desolation, by Antiochus IV was removed. The Macabbes were probably the ones who did it. I am not up on that part of history to say for sure.

That temple has long since been destroyed, anyway.

The end times temple to be built, and animal sacrifices to be restarted again, will be right after Gog/Magog. The Dome of the Rock is situated right over where the temple sanctuary was originally built. So it will have to be removed.

It will be on the end times temple mount that the abomination of desolation statue image of the beast-king will be placed.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

You misrepresent me. I argued against the kings in Revelation 17:10 as being renamed as "kingdoms". They are kings not kingdoms.


The seven heads are not "renamed" kings. The seven heads "represent" seven kings. Just like the ten horns are not "renamed" kings. The ten horns "represent" ten kings.

Don’t be silly; you don’t know what’s and appositive; look the word up and learn something. God is relating profound illustrations in highly cryptic language to keep his plan hid plan from those “seeing not; and hearing not, neither understanding” (Matthew 13:13).

Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. (Matthew 13:11)​

If “seven heads” also “represent seven kings,” then John is renaming the heads as kings. It is just another way of saying the same thing by the literary device of appositives. Your failure to understand is your personal problem, not mine.

The eighth king, the beast king of the end times, is of the seven other kings. It is the eighth king, the beast king that will be cast into the lake of fire at Jesus's return.

Differently, at Jesus's return, Satan is cast into the bottomless pit for a thousand years. It is therefore - impossible for Satan to be the eighth king.

Jesus's return
The beast-king and the false prophet - into the lake of fire
Satan - into the bottomless pit prison

1000 years later
Satan released from the bottomless pit prison - and he deceives the nations into one last rebellion. Which God puts down.
Satan then is cast into the lake of fire - where the beast-king and the false prophet are, and will have been for a thousand years..

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

You keep evading the issue. The eighth king “was” and the sixth “is” in Revelation 17:9-11. That makes the eighth king one of the fallen five. How is it that the eighth king “was” before one of the ancient Roman emperors in your interpretation? You keep trying to avoid answering the question by perverting the issue rather than owning up to the question. And trying to say the scarlet beast is Satan is bogus to get out of your dilemma I’m going to continue to challenge your lack of understanding and evasion of the ramifications of your interpretation.

 

[Douggg]

If “seven heads” also “represent seven kings,” then John is renaming the heads as kings. It is just another way of saying the same thing by the literary device of appositives. Your failure to understand is your personal problem, not mine.

"renaming" is the wrong word - Jerry.

The seven heads represents seven mountains upon which the woman sits.

And the seven heads also represent seven kings.

The seven heads are not being "renamed" seven kings - because the seven heads still also represent seven mountains upon which the woman sits.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

"renaming" is the wrong word - Jerry.

The seven heads represents seven mountains upon which the woman sits.

And the seven heads also represent seven kings.

The seven heads are not being "renamed" seven kings - because the seven heads still also represent seven mountains upon which the woman sits.

I can see you didn't look up appositives. If the kings are also heads, then John is renaming the seven heads as mountains and kings.

And you keep evading the issue. The eighth king “was” and the sixth “is” in Revelation 17:9-11. That makes the eighth king one of the fallen five. How is it that the eighth king “was” before one of the ancient Roman emperors in your interpretation? You keep trying to avoid answering the question and pervert the issue rather than own up to the question. I’m going to continue to challenge your lack of understanding and evasion of the ramifications of your interpretation.

 

[Douggg]

You keep evading the issue. The eighth king “was” and the sixth “is” in Revelation 17:9-11. That makes the eighth king one of the fallen five.

No, it does not. The eighth is not said to be only "was"...... But "was, and is not, even he is" It is a way of saying he will be killed and brought back to life as the eighth king - the beast king. Which we know in Revelation 13:5, the beast king "continues" for 42 months. Which king 7 in Revelation 17:10 is also said must "continue" a short space.

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

 

[Douggg]

I can see you didn't look up appositives. If the kings are also heads, then John is renaming the seven heads as mountains and kings.

Jerry, you have reversed what I wrote. I did not say the kings are also heads. I wrote the seven heads also represent seven kings.

 

[Douggg]

And you keep evading the issue. The eighth king “was” and the sixth “is” in Revelation 17:9-11.

Jerry, read the text of Revelation 17:11. All of it. It does not say simply that the eighth king "was".

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

No, it does not. The eighth is not said to be only "was"...... But "was, and is not, even he is" It is a way of saying he will be killed and brought back to life as the eighth king - the beast king. Which we know in Revelation 13:5, the beast king "continues" for 42 months. Which king 7 in Revelation 17:10 is also said must "continue" a short space.

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

He comes to life as the eighth king; that's what Revelation 17:9-11 clarifies. Either it's beyond your comprehension or you're evading the evidence.

That makes the eighth king one of the fallen five. How is it that the eighth king “was” before one of the ancient Roman emperors in your interpretation? You keep trying to avoid answering the question and pervert the issue rather than own up to the question. I’m going to continue to challenge your lack of understanding and evasion of the ramifications of your interpretation.

 

[Douggg]

That makes the eighth king one of the fallen five.

No, it does not. The eighth king will be one of the previous 7 kings.

 

[Douggg]

How is it that the eighth king “was” before one of the ancient Roman emperors in your interpretation? You keep trying to avoid answering the question and pervert the issue rather than own up to the question. I’m going to continue to challenge your lack of understanding and evasion of the ramifications of your interpretation.

The eighth king is the future king 7, the little horn person. He is not one of the ancient Roman emperors.

 

[Timtofly]

The Man of Sin. Human.

That is referring to Satan. The beast is the image or Satan's "Adam" created to show humanity that Satan is just as great as God. The only human is the False Prophet. Revelation 16:13

"And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet."

Satan is represented by the dragon. The FP, and the image as the beast are the other two beings.

In Revelation 13, the FP is the spokesperson:

"And there was given unto him a mouth (the mouth of this dragon beast with 7 heads = the FP) speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

Satan is then represented by the being with two horns. Together they make an image that looks human like the FP. Then this image is brought to life and is referred to as the beast, or most would say an AC. Satan's "Adam" is the ultimate anti christ representation. Instead of providing life, he provides death and destruction. He enforces all to worship Satan.

In 2 Thessalonians 2, Satan is the one working already in Paul's day as the one who turns men from the Word of God. That Wicked one of Satan, destroyed by Jesus, is this beast or image, Satan's "Adam.

Satan is the one involving perdition always at enmity with God and God's Word. That started in the Garden when Satan got Eve to doubt God's Word

 

[Jerryhuerta]

The eighth king is the future king 7, the little horn person. He is not one of the ancient Roman emperors.

Douglas, it’s really a challenge to figure out where you’re coming from, when you don’t even know.

You’re trying to get away with changing the “perspective in time” into Revelation 17 to come up with your outrageous interpretations, which is the bane of futurism.

Chapter 17 is about ONE perspective in time, the time in which the harlot Babylon is judged, and that is not the time of Nero, which futurists admit, unlike preterists. It represents our time, not the time that John lived. Futurist John F. Walvoord admits this,

The situation here described is apparently prior in time to that described in Revelation 13, where the beast has already assumed all power and has demanded that the world should worship its ruler as God. The situation, therefore, seemingly is in the first half of Daniel’s seventieth week before the time of the great tribulation which is the second half. While such a relationship has many parallels in the past history of the Roman church in relation to political power, the inference is that this is a future situation which will take place in the end time. (John F. Walvoord, Revelation, The John Walvoord Prophecy Commentaries, Moody Publishers; New edition, April 1, 2011), 255)​

The problem is that futurists, like you, then attempt to change the perspective in time into the past when it comes to the sixth king that “is” in verse 10, which is what Walvoord and you do,

The seven heads of the beast, however, are said to be symbolic of seven kings described in verse 10. Five of these are said to have fallen, one is in contemporary existence, that is, in John’s lifetime, the seventh is yet to come and will be followed by another described as the eighth, which is the beast itself. In the Greek there is no word for “there,” thus translated literally, the phrase is “and are seven kings.” The seven heads are best explained as referring to seven kings who represent seven successive forms of the kingdom… The mountains, then, are not piles of material rocks and earth at all, but royal or imperial powers, declared to be such by the angel himself. (ibid.)​

Walvoord has the sense at least to admit the kings are kingdoms taken from Daniel, unlike you, but then he makes the huge mistake, like you, of changing the “perspective of time” from the “future” to the “past” in determining the king that “is.” And therein lies all your confusion, like every futurist.

That’s why you can’t see that verses 9-11 affirm that the eighth head is one of the fallen five, insomuch as it “was, and is not,” from the same perspective in time that the sixth king “is.” Like every futurist, you try and erroneously switch the perspective in time to fit your doctrine.

For those who have eyes that see and wisdom, verses 9-11 affirm that the eighth king “was, and is not” from the same perspective in time that the sixth king “is,” which makes him one of the fallen five, and “of the seven.”

So, if the sixth kings are Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, or Nero, according to your convoluted interpretation, how is it that the future antichrist preceded Nero? You still haven’t answered that.

 

[Douggg]

The problem is that futurists, like you, then attempt to change the perspective in time into the past when it comes to the sixth king that “is” in verse 10, which is what Walvoord and you do,

Jerry, you are using the wrong term "perpsective in time". You should be using "status in time".

I will give you an example...

Jerry huerta, when he was seven years old - his status in time was being a grade school student, no ring on his finger.

Jerry huerta, when he was sixteen years old - his status in time was being a high school student, no ring on his finger.

Jerry huerta, when he became an adult - his status in time was being a married man, with a ring on his finger.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

The status in time of the 7 heads (7 kings) and the 10 horns (10 kings) is determined by the crowns, no crowns. Just like the Jerry huerta example of ring or no ring.

In Revelation 17, no crowns on the heads and horns. Status in time first century, the 6th king ruling at the time of John.

In Revelation 12, crowns on the heads, king 7 has come to power, completing the prophecy of the 7 kings. Status in time is end times, with 7 years to go before Jesus returns.

In Revelation 13, no crowns on the heads, king 7 has been killed, end of the prophecy of the 7 kings.

One head, king 7, mortally wounded, but healed to be king 8, the beast-king. The horns have crowns to rule with the beast king. Status in time is end times, with 42 months to go before Jesus return.

 

[Douggg]

So, if the sixth kings are Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, or Nero, according to your convoluted interpretation, how is it that the future antichrist preceded Nero? You still haven’t answered that.

Jerry, the future beast-king is not one of the ancient Julio-Claudian Roman Leaders, come back to life. He will be descended of that blood-line though. He is of that blood-line, that's how he is connected to the other seven.

The future beast-king (king 8) will be the future king 7 who will be killed and comes back to life as king 8 the beast-king.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Jerry, the future beast-king is not one of the ancient Julio-Claudian Roman Leaders, come back to life. He will be descended of that blood-line though. He is of that blood-line, that's how he is connected to the other seven.

The future beast-king (king 8) will be the future king 7 who will be killed and comes back to life as king 8 the beast-king.

This post answers both of your previous ones.

"Status" is a position in society at any given time. You don’t even know what the word means, and you’re making up things like you usually do to try and cover your delusions or fallacies; it’s double-speak.

Riddle me this, how can the angel state a king "was" and another "is" and another "will be" if we can't determine the "perspective of time" from the one that "is?" Those who can't grasp this are without wisdom.

The king that is in power when the harlot Babylon is judged is the sixth king. Duh, that’s what it means when the angel says he “is” in verse 10. From that “perspective in time,” the ten horns are also without crowns.

And from that same “perspective in time,” the eighth head had previously held power, conveyed by the angel stating he “was, and is not.”

You’re trying to change the “perspective of time” from the “future” to the “past” in determining the king that “is.” And therein lies all your misrepresentation, like every futurist.

So, if the sixth kings are Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero, according to your convoluted interpretation, how is it that the future antichrist preceded Nero according to verses 9-11? You still haven’t answered that.

 

[Douggg]

So, if the sixth kings are Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero, according to your convoluted interpretation, how is it that the future antichrist preceded Nero according to verses 9-11? You still haven’t answered that.

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

The seven king are:

Julius Caesar
Augustus
Tiberius
Caligula
Claudius
Nero
the end times little horn

The little horn person, king 7, will be killed and brought back to life to be king 8 - the beast-king. How simple can that be, Jerry ?

 

[Jerryhuerta]

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

The seven king are:

Julius Caesar
Augustus
Tiberius
Caligula
Claudius
Nero
the end times little horn

The little horn person, king 7, will be killed and brought back to life to be king 8 - the beast-king. How simple can that be, Jerry ?

Riddle me this, how can the angel state a king "was" and another "is" and another "will be" if we can't determine the "perspective of time" from the one that "is?" Those who can't grasp this are without wisdom.

The king that is in power when the harlot Babylon is judged is the sixth king. Duh, that’s what it means when the angel says he “is” in verse 10. From that “perspective in time,” the ten horns are also without crowns.

And from that same “perspective in time,” the eighth head had previously held power, conveyed by the angel stating he “was, and is not.”

You’re trying to change the “perspective of time” from the “future” to the “past” in determining the king that “is.” And therein lies all your misrepresentation, like every futurist.

So, if the sixth kings are Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero, according to your convoluted interpretation, how is it that the future antichrist preceded Nero according to verses 9-11? You still haven’t answered that.

 

[Douggg]

So, if the sixth kings are Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero, according to your convoluted interpretation, how is it that the future antichrist preceded Nero according to verses 9-11? You still haven’t answered that.

Your question does not comply with verses 9-11.

The term antichrist does not appear anywhere in Revelation 17. So, your question is flawed.

There are 7 kings and the beast king- king 8 - is of the 7 kings.

The seven king are:

Julius Caesar
Augustus
Tiberius
Caligula
Claudius
Nero
the end times little horn


The little horn person, king 7, will be killed and brought back to life to be king 8 - the beast-king.

 

[Douggg]

Riddle me this, how can the angel state a king "was" and another "is" and another "will be" if we can't determine the "perspective of time" from the one that "is?" Those who can't grasp this are without wisdom.

The king that is in power when the harlot Babylon is judged is the sixth king. Duh, that’s what it means when the angel says he “is” in verse 10. From that “perspective in time,” the ten horns are also without crowns.

And from that same “perspective in time,” the eighth head had previously held power, conveyed by the angel stating he “was, and is not.”

You’re trying to change the “perspective of time” from the “future” to the “past” in determining the king that “is.” And therein lies all your misrepresentation, like every futurist.

I have no idea of what you trying to communicate.

There is not "harlot Babylon". Use the terms in the text, Jerry.

verse 9 - The woman turned prostitute sits in the location of seven mountains (the location is Rome, I think we can agree on Rome being the location).

When the ten kings are ruling with the beast-king, then the ten kings will destroy the woman. Revelation 17:16. The Vatican is still there, Jerry. It has not happened yet because the beast-king is future, as well as, the ten kings. Although close.