THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS (Luke 16) IS NOT A PARABLE

[bbbbbbb]

Add this to your verses.

Ephesians 4:8-10
This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that
he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended
higher than all the heavens, in order to
fill the whole universe.)

There are two sharply divided schools of thought concerning the passage from Ephesians. Some connect it with Christ descending into hell, as is stated in various Creeds of the Church, although never directly in the New Testament. The other group takes it to mean the incarnation of God to the human race where He who knew no sin became sin on our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God in Him (cf. I Corinthians 15).

 

[Saint Steven]

There are two sharply divided schools of thought concerning the passage from Ephesians. Some connect it with Christ descending into hell, as is stated in various Creeds of the Church, although never directly in the New Testament. The other group takes it to mean the incarnation of God to the human race where He who knew no sin became sin on our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God in Him (cf. I Corinthians 15).

The creed option best supports the view of the early church. Me thinks.
Although, "hell" in this case means the realm of the dead. (hades)

 

[JulieB67]

Add this to your verses.

Ephesians 4:8-10

That's true, those should be added.

 

[Saint Steven]

That's true, those should be added.

Here's the full set that I typically use on this subject.

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Note: Christ was laid in an above ground tomb.
Where is the heart of the earth? (the realm of the dead)

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

Ephesians 4:8-10
This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also
descended to the lower, earthly regions?
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended
higher than all the heavens,
in order to fill the whole universe.)

1 Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

 

[Butch5]

Add this to your verses.

Ephesians 4:8-10
This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that
he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended
higher than all the heavens, in order to
fill the whole universe.)

Do you understand that passage in light of the quote that Paul is referencing? I think you're misunderstanding it.

We have to remember that Paul did not believe that dead people were alive. When writing to the Corinthians he said of Christians who had dies, if there is no resurrection they had perished. Paul couldn't make such a statement if in fact those Christians were actually alive.

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (1 Cor. 15:12-18 KJV)

The only hope Paul gives these Christians who had died is the Resurrection. He says if there is no Resurrection they had perished.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The creed option best supports the view of the early church. Me thinks.
Although, "hell" in this case means the realm of the dead. (hades)

I am not sure this needs to be an either/or decision. Both could be valid. Neither necessarily contradicts the other.

 

[Saint Steven]

We have to remember that Paul did not believe that dead people were alive.

Hebrews 12:1
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

The word simply means to proclaim. It could be anything. The passage doesn't say that Jesus preached te Gospel to the spirits in prison.

It's plain that Jesus' mission is inter alia to proclaim freedom to the prisoners (plus restore sight to the blind) whether they be physically dead in some physical place called hades, or the walking dead, dead in their sins and trespasses, dead to God, perishables in their world of shades of doubt and half-truths. Spirits imprisoned in the flesh, seeking their way home, even as a flame licks heavenward.

Thirsty, Richie? Got the ol' 'gulf' problem? Being tormented in the flesh, under the law, unable to 'give it up' to God cause he's hardened his heart by years of careless living to reject the way the truth and life.

Still, there's good news for Richie and all those who sail upon him! Nary a dimly burning wick goeth unquenched. At latest he'll get busted out of the dungeon when Jesus produces the keys to (yes!) death and hades for the GWTJ. And then? Behold - all things made anew! Into the lake of fire for a good cleansing, sin-destroying and bad habit overcoming session in Grace abundant, and then it's c'mon Richie, the party's in here, straight through the open gates and along the tree-lined main street [or river, depending] - scrub them robes in Lamb's blood and join us for beaucoup eau de vie. You can do it!

Only Jesus leaves the Pharisees to stew in their own infernal imaginings after he flips them again on that one.

 

[bbbbbbb]

It's plain that Jesus' mission is inter alia to proclaim freedom to the prisoners (plus restore sight to the blind) whether they be physically dead in some physical place called hades, or the walking dead, dead in their sins and trespasses, dead to God, perishables in their world of shades of doubt and half-truths. Spirits imprisoned in the flesh, seeking their way home, even as a flame licks heavenward.

Thirsty, Richie? Got the ol' 'gulf' problem? Being tormented in the flesh, under the law, unable to 'give it up' to God cause he's hardened his heart by years of careless living to reject the way the truth and life.

Still, there's good news for Richie and all those who sail upon him! Nary a dimly burning wick goeth unquenched. At latest he'll get busted out of the dungeon when Jesus produces the keys to (yes!) death and hades for the GWTJ. And then? Behold - all things made anew! Into the lake of fire for a good cleansing, sin-destroying and bad habit overcoming session in Grace abundant, and then it's c'mon Richie, the party's in here, straight through the open gates and along the tree-lined main street [or river, depending] - scrub them robes in Lamb's blood and join us for beaucoup eau de vie. You can do it!

Only Jesus leaves the Pharisees to stew in their own infernal imaginings after he flips them again on that one.

Pure speculation manifest indeed.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Pure speculation manifest indeed.

That's very generous of you, and humble too. What if I say it's inspiration, and God's word has that effect on some? Sorry for the lack of quote marks and footnotes, seems I have erred greatly in assuming the casual reader to be au fait with the scriptural references.

Never forget - the Spirit gives life. (That's found in Jn 6:63 and 2 Cor 3:6)

 

[bbbbbbb]

That's very generous of you, and humble too. What if I say it's inspiration, and God's word has that effect on some? Sorry for the lack of quote marks and footnotes, seems I have erred greatly in assuming the casual reader to be au fait with the scriptural references.

Never forget - the Spirit gives life. (That's found in Jn 6:63 and 2 Cor 3:6)

That is precisely why there are such divisions in Christianity. Each and every would-be Christian leader, whether Pope or pastor or priest or prophet (the four P's of phailure) claim divine inspiration. Are they all correct? If not, how do you know which to believe?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

That is precisely why there are such divisions in Christianity. Each and every would-be Christian leader, whether Pope or pastor or priest or prophet (the four P's of phailure) claim divine inspiration. Are they all correct? If not, how do you know which to believe?

Choose life. The division is exactly the pharisees v the rest, and Jesus is all over it. God reveals the destiny of mankind collectively in the death and resurrection of Jesus, its representative. It's sheer madness to then say, oh but most are brought back just to be smashed/ killed again. That's just perverse, can't you see that?

 

[Der Alte]

It's plain that Jesus' mission is inter alia to proclaim freedom to the prisoners (plus restore sight to the blind) whether they be physically dead in some physical place called hades, or the walking dead, dead in their sins and trespasses, dead to God, perishables in their world of shades of doubt and half-truths. Spirits imprisoned in the flesh, seeking their way home, even as a flame licks heavenward.
Thirsty, Richie? Got the ol' 'gulf' problem? Being tormented in the flesh, under the law, unable to 'give it up' to God cause he's hardened his heart by years of careless living to reject the way the truth and life.
Still, there's good news for Richie and all those who sail upon him! Nary a dimly burning wick goeth unquenched. At latest he'll get busted out of the dungeon when Jesus produces the keys to (yes!) death and hades for the GWTJ. And then? Behold - all things made anew! Into the lake of fire for a good cleansing, sin-destroying and bad habit overcoming session in Grace abundant, and then it's c'mon Richie, the party's in here, straight through the open gates and along the tree-lined main street [or river, depending] - scrub them robes in Lamb's blood and join us for beaucoup eau de vie. You can do it!
Only Jesus leaves the Pharisees to stew in their own infernal imaginings after he flips them again on that one.

That is a very nice patchwork quilt you have sewn together. Anybody can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective scripture out-of-context .
Here is a good example, "Judas went out and hanged himself.""Jesus said go thou and do likewise."
This is so grossly abused. "It's plain that Jesus' mission is inter alia to proclaim freedom to the prisoners (plus restore sight to the blind) whether they be physically dead in some physical place called hades,..."

Luke 4:18-19
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.​

Please tell us how many "poor, blind, brokenhearted, bruised there are in the grave or "hades?" Or are they all dead, lifeless bodies?

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Psalms 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.​

 

[ClementofA]

That is a very nice patchwork quilt you have sewn together. Anybody can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective scripture out-of-context .
Here is a good example, "Judas went out and hanged himself.""Jesus said go thou and do likewise."

Here is another example from your own posts:

.
● 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neitherfornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
● Galatians 5:19-21
(19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
(20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.
● Ephesians 5:3-5
(3) But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
(4) Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
(5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
In three different epistles [books] Paul lists many people who do not have any inheritance in the kingdom of heaven. Please show a verse, two or more would be better, where Paul says “Oops I made a mistake, all these people will be reconciled even if they were sinful and unrighteous when they died."

Where does Paul ever qualify his warnings about who cannot enter the kingdom of God by saying "not until they repent & cease being unrighteous?" I can't seem to find that
qualification anywhere in Paul's writings. Do you suppose that Paul forgot to put that in and that is why unis today have to interject that into every one of Paul's warnings?

It's right in front of your eyes, if you read the next verse after those you quoted:

1 Cor 6:9-11

"Know ye not that THE UNRIGHTEOUS shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

"And SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

As a commentator says:

"Wait a minute. If the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God, why does Paul say "and such were some of you?" If they were unrighteous, then how did they inherit the kingdom?"

"They had to be cleansed first, of course. As long as anyone is not cleansed, they have no part inside. But once cleansed, they they entered the kingdom."

So the passages you quoted are perfectly harmonious with universal salvation.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism


Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death.

Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

 

[ClementofA]

Luke 4:18-19
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.​

Please tell us how many "poor, blind, brokenhearted, bruised there are in the grave or "hades?" Or are they all dead, lifeless bodies?

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Psalms 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.​

You think those verses which are commonly used by "soul sleep" advocates (SDA, JW) to support their erroneous doctrine "show there is no repentance after death"? How?

Here's what you never answered:

I only had one argument which has NOT been disproved.
Jesus did not say, or imply "night is coming when I cannot work but don't worry I'll be back." Jesus did not preach to Paul in the flesh. He said "no man can work" And those who have died cannot work.

What argument? Where does any of that, or anything in John 9, say, imply, suggest or even hint that maybe people cannot repent or be saved after death? It looks to me like you've got nothing.

Jesus did not say, as you allege, "those who have died cannot work". And even if that were true, their resurrection from death back to life might reverse that.

Jesus said "night cometh, when no man can work". He didn't say "once night cometh no man will ever have another chance to repent or be saved".

What does it matter if "Jesus did not preach to Paul in the flesh". Work is work, regardless. As is His intercession, raising the dead, judging the world, etc.

Since He appeared to & spoke to His disciples & preached postmortem, then such works continued & nothing in John 9 rules out Jesus doing so in Hades & the LOF for the repentance & salvation of those there.

Moreover the context in John 9 isn't even talking about salvation, but healing a blind man so he can see:

1And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. 2And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. 4I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. 5As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world. 6When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay, 7And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing. 8The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? 9Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he. 10Therefore said they unto him, How were thine eyes opened? 11He answered and said, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to the pool of Siloam, and wash: and I went and washed, and I received sight. 12Then said they unto him, Where is he? He said, I know not.

Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish

A number of commentators apply verse 14 to - nations - God had (past tense) destroyed in this world, which means it could have nothing to do with the - future - final destiny of individuals - postmortem in another world. Furthermore, many translations do not put it in the future tense "shall not live" as the KJV does, but in the present tense "do not live". Both of these points defeat the verse as an annihilationist "proof text".

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Compare Lk.16:19-31. Did the "rich man" in Hades "know not any thing"? Or is Eccl.9:5 speaking of corpses such as are, for example, put in graves?

Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Psalms 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

See my previous comment.

There is no hope in the grave/hell.
Nobody in the grave/hell are waiting or seeking for anything.
Nobody in the grave/hell is waiting for salvation.
Nobody is bearing any yokes in the grave/hell.

Do you have scripture to support any of those statements? If so, which verses apply to each of them? Do you, therefore, believe in the doctrine of "soul sleep"?

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Psalms 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

Is it, therefore, your view that the rich man in Hades (Lk.16:19-31) who had died did "know not any thing" and "the memory of [him was] forgotten" (Eccl. 9:5, quoted above by you)? That the story about him is fictional?

Is it, therefore, your view that the rich man in Hades (Lk.16:19-31) who had died "shall not rise" (Isa.26:14) when all the dead are risen?

Is it, therefore, your viewpoint that Love Omnipotent will not "shew wonders to the dead" and the dead will never "arise and praise Thee" (Psa.88:10)?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Please tell us how many "poor, blind, brokenhearted, bruised there are in the grave or "hades?" Or are they all dead, lifeless bodies?

I suggest it's not controversial to posit that there are many among the dead who are or were poor, blind, brokenhearted and/or bruised.

Is that a trick question, der Alte?

 

[Der Alte]

I suggest it's not controversial to posit that there are many among the dead who are or were poor, blind, brokenhearted and/or bruised.
Is that a trick question, der Alte?

It is a question of logic. How many "poor, blind, brokenhearted, bruised there are, currently or in the future, in the grave or "hades?" Or are they all dead, lifeless bodies? Jesus never preached to any dead people in the grave/hades/gehenna. Read the rest of my post.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Psalms 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.​

When the ancient Jews read/heard these verses what did they understand?
When NT Jews and gentiles read/heard Joh 9:4 what did they understand?
Did The Israelites know or think "למכשול/lomikshol, no problem, YHWH is going to save us no matter what?"
Or did the gentiles know or think "ου σκανδαλον/ou skandalon, no problem, Jesus is going to save us no matter what?"

 

[ClementofA]

It is a question of logic. How many "poor, blind, brokenhearted, bruised there are, currently or in the future, in the grave or "hades?" Or are they all dead, lifeless bodies? Jesus never preached to any dead people in the grave/hades/gehenna. Read the rest of my post.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Psalms 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.​

When the ancient Jews read/heard these verses what did they understand?
When NT Jews and gentiles read/heard Joh 9:4 what did they understand?
Did The Israelites know or think למכשול/lomikshol no problem YHWH is going to save us no matter what?
Or did the gentiles know or think ου σκανδαλον/ou skandalon no problem Jesus is going to save us no matter what?

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Clearly everything has a positive purpose to it: "to humble them" (Eccl.1:13).

BTW, is "hell" (Hades/Sheol, Tartarus, Gehenna, the lake of fire, the abyss, etc) not also "under the heavens". Evidently those there are, for their own good, being humbled too. See Eccl.1:13 above.

May the Lord keep, bless & heal you.

100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind
100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind

 

[JulieB67]

Removed

 

[bbbbbbb]

The problem with the soul-sleep folks is that they conflate the body with the spirit. According to them when the body dies the spirit also dies with it. Death, for them, is a flexible matter. Most of them believe in a form of resurrection when the body and spirit come back to life. Then they are judged and if their works are inadequate to save them (and, in reality, there is truth to that because works can never save anyone) then they are chucked into the lake of fire which burns temporarily until their bodies and spirits are converted to ashes and they are dead once again.

However, scripture is quite crisp when Paul states unambiguously that he would rather be absent from his body and present with the Lord.

II Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

The only possible way for this to be true is if there are two aspects to the individual - the physical and the spiritual - and that they can be separated at death. If they are inseparable then Paul is talking nonsense and, at best, is saying that he would rather be dead and senseless in the grave (along with his body).