the rich man & Lazarus is not a parable

[Guojing]

Yeah, that does not make any sense; Especially when we look at all the pieces of the puzzle in Scripture. First, Abraham and the Richman were said to be separated by a great gulf from the Richman (Luke 16:26). So they were not in Heaven. Second, Jesus said He was in the heart of the Earth for three days and three nights (Matthew 12:40). The heart of the Earth would have been where hell (Sheol or the realm of the dead) is located and not Heaven. Three, when Jesus resurrected, and He encountered Mary, He told her not to touch Him because He still needed to ascend to His Father. He told her He would return to see the disciples later (John 20:17-18). In other words, after the resurrection, Jesus did not ascend yet bodily to the Father yet where He would have been residing in Heaven above. So when Jesus said He would be with the thief in paradise (Luke 23:43), this would have been the compartment known as Abraham’s bosom separated by the great gulf from the place of torments. To conclude otherwise is to make a mess out of the verses I mentioned.

If you subscribe to the doctrine that

1. there is no distinction between Israel and the Body of Christ, and
2. that every OT saint is in the 3rd heaven now,

then you would want to believe that Abraham's bosom has been moved to heaven after the resurrection of Christ.

However, if you do hold to the distinction between the 2 entities, then yes you are correct, Paradise/Abraham's bosom is a place of rest for all the OT saints and those of believing Israel where they are now at present, waiting for the 2nd coming of Christ.

This was hinted in a few places in scripture, one of which is Daniel 12:1-2

1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

as well as Peter in Acts 2

29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

 

[Cockcrow]

Yeah, that does not make any sense; Especially when we look at all the pieces of the puzzle in Scripture. First, Abraham and the Richman were said to be separated by a great gulf from the Richman (Luke 16:26). So they were not in Heaven. Second, Jesus said He was in the heart of the Earth for three days and three nights (Matthew 12:40). The heart of the Earth would have been where hell (Sheol or the realm of the dead) is located and not Heaven. Three, when Jesus resurrected, and He encountered Mary, He told her not to touch Him because He still needed to ascend to His Father. He told her He would return to see the disciples later (John 20:17-18). In other words, after the resurrection, Jesus did not ascend yet bodily to the Father yet where He would have been residing in Heaven above. So when Jesus said He would be with the thief in paradise (Luke 23:43), this would have been the compartment known as Abraham’s bosom separated by the great gulf from the place of torments. To conclude otherwise is to make a mess out of the verses I mentioned.

How do you know that paradise is not heaven. a great gulf could be talking about Heaven and hell remember this is a miracle, not a every day occurrence, God is allowing the rich man to talk to Abraham who is in Paradise. this is a miracle. and there is no good part of hell, all of it is bad. paradise is not in hell

 

[Guojing]

How do you know that paradise is not heaven. a great gulf could be talking about Heaven and hell remember this is a miracle, not a every day occurrence, God is allowing the rich man to talk to Abraham who is in Paradise. this is a miracle. and there is no good part of hell, all of it is bad. paradise is not in hell

Because of what Jesus said literally in John 3:13?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How do you know that paradise is not heaven. a great gulf could be talking about Heaven and hell remember this is a miracle, not a every day occurrence, God is allowing the rich man to talk to Abraham who is in Paradise. this is a miracle. and there is no good part of hell, all of it is bad. paradise is not in hell

Because Jesus said He would be three days and three nights in the heart of the Earth and He told the thief He would be that day in paradise with Him.

 

[com7fy8]

One thing I think of is how Abraham says the rich man's brothers will not believe even if one returns to them from the dead.

To me, this means character has a lot to do with if a person believes or not.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If you subscribe to the doctrine that

1. there is no distinction between Israel and the Body of Christ, and

Well, there is the Land Promise given to Abraham and others. But the NT makes it clear we are all one in Christ.
Paul says there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ.

1. that every OT saint is in the 3rd heaven now,

Nope. Nobody goes to Heaven until the Rapture.

then you would want to believe that Abraham's bosom has been moved to heaven after the resurrection of Christ.

I don’t believe Abraham’s bosom will be moved. Those saints who sleep in Christ will simply rise in the Rapture to meet the Lord in the air.

2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

This is not the Rapture. This is the bodily resurrection which happens for the Judgment (After the Millennium or 1,000 year reign of Christ).

as well as Peter in Acts 2

29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Right, David did not ascend into Heaven yet because at the time of the writing of Acts 2, he was still in Abraham’s bosom. David will rise from Abraham’s bosom in the Rapture (Which is yet future).

 

[Ceallaigh]

a morality about what? Here you have a story about a guy burning in torments in hell. what is that supposed to represent? I don't see how you can dismiss this as a parable given the naming of actual people which Jesus never did in his parables.

Regarding that, Lazarus is the Greek version of Eliezer. Eliezer was Abraham's inheritor before the birth of Isaac (Genesis 15:2). Some think Eliezer might have been a gentile since he was from Damascus. Therefore some theorize that Lazarus/Eliezer represents the Gentiles and the rich man in fine linen represents the Pharisees. And their inheritance from Abraham is being given to the Gentiles. Perhaps the rich man's brothers who did not listen to Moses and the prophets and will not believe one who rises from the dead (Christ) represent the priesthood who rejected their Messiah?

Note there might be a discrepancy in spelling between "Eliezer" and "Eleazar".

I'm not standing behind this, I just think it's interesting.

 

[Ceallaigh]

A parable has a specific format something unknown/not understood is explained by comparison with something known/understood. The story of Lazarus and the rich man does not have such a comparison. It might be some other figure of speech but it is not a parable. The ECF who quoted/referred to the story of Lazarus and the rich man considered it factual.

First Apology of Justin Martyr. Chap. XXXIV. — Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and Are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.

The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form 215 [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased, — in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states (Luke 16:19, etc.) that Dives knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him — [Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive 216 the preaching of Him who was 217 to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist, that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man

Clement of Alexander Chap. Book XI

There was a certain man,” said the Lord, narrating, “very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day.” This was the hay. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.

Tertullian On Idolatry Chap XIII Thus, too, Eleazar [Lazarus] in Hades,(attaining refreshment in Abraham’s bosom) and the rich man, (on the other hand, set in the torment of fire) compensate, by an answerable retribution, their alternate vicissitudes of evil and good.

The Epistles of Cyprian. Epistle LIV 3. Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Eleazar [Lazarus], then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had.

It seems to me that Justin Martyr is the only one who's addressing it as factual per se in what looks like commentary regarding reincarnation. The brief comments on the story from the other three doesn't really seem to establish whether or not they think it's factual.

 

[Guojing]

Well, there is the Land Promise given to Abraham and others. But the NT makes it clear we are all one in Christ.
Paul says there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ.

There are no Jew and Gentiles in the Body of Christ, that is what Paul meant when he say "we are all one in Christ." (Galatians 3:28)

But there is still the nation of Israel, the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that has a promise from God to their forefathers that they will be saved at the 2nd coming, which Daniel 12 was referring to.

And as you said, they will have a land promise on Earth, which we in the Body of Christ do not have.

Separate these 2 entities, and scripture understanding will become clearer.

Otherwise, it makes no sense that Abraham and others have a land promise, while we do not have, if the we who are all one in the Body of Christ, includes them.

Nope. Nobody goes to Heaven until the Rapture.

The rapture is a mystery revealed to Paul for the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:50-58), not for the those in Abraham's bosom, the latter are part of Israel.

I don’t believe Abraham’s bosom will be moved. Those saints who sleep in Christ will simply rise in the Rapture to meet the Lord in the air.

This is not the Rapture. This is the bodily resurrection which happens for the Judgment (After the Millennium or 1,000 year reign of Christ).

In the meantime, all of them are in Abraham's bosom now, which, as you said is still at the heart of the Earth. But the OT saints there will not be at the Rapture. They have to wait until the Tribulation ends, when Christ return for them on Earth, as stated in Daniel 12:1-2

Right, David did not ascend into Heaven yet because at the time of the writing of Acts 2, he was still in Abraham’s bosom. David will rise from Abraham’s bosom in the Rapture (Which is yet future).

Agree about David still being in Abraham's bosom now.

My different view, from you is the the Rapture is a separate event from the 2nd coming.

The Rapture is for the Body of Christ.
The 2nd coming is for the nation of Israel.

 

[sparow]

a morality about what? Here you have a story about a guy burning in torments in hell. what is that supposed to represent? I don't see how you can dismiss this as a parable given the naming of actual people which Jesus never did in his parables.

I would dispute the usefulness of the word parable as a translator's rendering, but the story of Lazarus and the rich man is a fictional or metaphorical narrative. For Lazarus to be a specific person he would need to be specifically identified like “Lazarus, Mary's brother” or “Lazarus of Bethany”. In this narrative Lazarus is a saved person., treated poorly by the Pharisees, and the pharisees are the rich man.

 

[Dan Perez]

Luke 16:19-31 is not a parable of Jesus like most people falsely believe, it is sickening how mainstream this false narrative of "its just a parable" when the reality is that it is actually a true story. Jesus never named real names in Parables, and in Luke 16:19-31 he names multiple real people 1. Lazarus the beggar 2. Abraham 3. Moses 4. The Prophets. Jesus clearly was teaching about the reality of eternal conscious torment in hell.
Luke 16:19-31

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Multiple things we learn from this true story that Jesus gives, 1. Hell is immediate after last breath, 2. Hell is a real place of torment 3. You will feel pain, punishment in hell. 3. You will have full memory in hell 4. Once you're in hell it is too late (nothing can be done for you, there is no salvation in hell) 5. People who go to hell deserve to go there (the rich man didn't argue or protest with Abraham about his own salvation, he simply was begging for Abraham to send Lazarus back to warn his brothers, and also begging for water, relief from his torment) 6. People preaching The word of God bible (Moses and prophets) is what saves people, not physical signs, or miracles.

Jesus obviously tells this true story to warn us of the reality of hell. one can not simply dismiss this as "just a parable" when the Lord Jesus Christ was so specific here. Also there are some weird people who teach that "Abraham's bosom" is actually a place, or some good part of hell, but that is not biblical. Abrahams bosom is a body part, not a location.

There are many PARABLES , and METONYMY and ALLEGORY and OXYMORON and PARABLES and I 3 books that show hundreds of them !!

dan p

 

[Cockcrow]

There are many PARABLES , and METONYMY and ALLEGORY and OXYMORON and PARABLES and I 3 books that show hundreds of them !!

dan p

but Jesus doesn't name real names in parables.

 

[Dan Perez]

but Jesus doesn't name real names in parables.

Just read Matt 12:2 as Jesus was calling out the PHARISEES and that means Israel , his own people !!

dan p

 

[Der Alte]

It seems to me that Justin Martyr is the only one who's addressing it as factual per se in what looks like commentary regarding reincarnation. The brief comments on the story from the other three doesn't really seem to establish whether or not they think it's factual.

What about their mentioning of this story, not what they didn't say, makes it clear that it is a parable? All of them speak as if it was factual. Here is more from Irenaeus

in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states (Luk_16:19, etc.) that Dives [rich man] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him — [Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states (Luk_16:19, etc.) that Dives knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him — [Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive216 the preaching of Him who was217 to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist, that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment. not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive216 the preaching of Him who was217 to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist, that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.​

 

[Ceallaigh]

What about their mentioning of this story, not what they didn't say, makes it clear that it is a parable? All of them speak as if it was factual. Here is more from Irenaeus

in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states (Luk_16:19, etc.) that Dives [rich man] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him — [Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states (Luk_16:19, etc.) that Dives knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him — [Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive216 the preaching of Him who was217 to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist, that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment. not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive216 the preaching of Him who was217 to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist, that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.​

That's virtually identical to what Justin Martyr wrote.

 

[Der Alte]

That's virtually identical to what Justin Martyr wrote.

I could not find where Justin mentioned Lazarus.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I could not find where Justin mentioned Lazarus.

From post #4:

First Apology of Justin Martyr. Chap. XXXIV. — Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and Are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.​

The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form215 [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased, — in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states (Luk_16:19, etc.) that Dives knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him — [Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive216 the preaching of Him who was217 to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist, that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man​

 

[Der Alte]

From post #4:

First Apology of Justin Martyr. Chap. XXXIV. — Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and Are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.​

The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form215 [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased, — in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states (Luk_16:19, etc.) that Dives knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him — [Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive216 the preaching of Him who was217 to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist, that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man​

My bad I mistitled the more recent post.