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Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?
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I do not like to differ, even in minor things, from those whom I esteem for their devotion to Christ and their valuable service in the cause of His Kingdom. But in the immortal words of the great Martin Luther, "Here I stand - I can do no other. So help me God!" Long centuries ago the faithful apostle Peter penned these inspired words, "Who by the power of God are kept through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (I Pet. 1:5). My conviction before God is that the extent of the salvation of Jesus, the Christ, our Lord, is to be known only in the last time. Jesus Himself said to His disciples, "I have yet many things to say unto you, but you cannot bear them now." But He said when the Holy Spirit should come, He would lead his people step by step - patiently lead them into the way of All Truth; so that when the last time (end of the age) came, the full revelation of that salvation would be made. I believe that I am writing in the last time. Writings of this kind do not endear the hearts of many people. I fear that enemies are made instead. Every time a truth is spoken, many become offended and many are filled with wrath. People always astonish me. It is never possible to know what attitude they will take under any given circumstance. They will believe and trust you and feed from your table, and for many years, only to become suddenly offended because of some point upon which they disagree, and often become hostile and sometimes even vicious, calling you a heretic and a false prophet, cutting you off from any fellowship and spiritual communication, and warning other saints near and far not to have anything to do with you.
I am also perfectly aware that these profound truths will be misapplied by another class, and some will twist and wrest them to their own destruction in their carnal and wicked endeavor to set aside all repentance of sin and annul all holiness of life, as some men in their zeal to display the grace of God have done, ridiculously living in sin and turning the grace of God into lasciviousness (Jude 4). These beautiful truths are not now written to men of corrupt minds who have no desire to walk in the Spirit, but to all who walk in the whole counsel of God, serving God because they love and know Him and not in fear of some dreadful judgment that hangs like a horrible terror before their eyes. I do not address those who would pervert the right ways of the Lord, using God's gracious plan and His great mercy as an excuse for careless living or unconcern for lost men, but to those children of the Most High God who, seeing their infinite identity in Christ, are consumed with the holy passion of becoming the very instrument of God to fight the good fight of faith, destroying sin and death and hell, and bringing all men back into the loving embrace of their God and Redeemer. So be it!
Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1
I am also perfectly aware that these profound truths will be misapplied by another class, and some will twist and wrest them to their own destruction in their carnal and wicked endeavor to set aside all repentance of sin and annul all holiness of life, as some men in their zeal to display the grace of God have done, ridiculously living in sin and turning the grace of God into lasciviousness (Jude 4). These beautiful truths are not now written to men of corrupt minds who have no desire to walk in the Spirit, but to all who walk in the whole counsel of God, serving God because they love and know Him and not in fear of some dreadful judgment that hangs like a horrible terror before their eyes. I do not address those who would pervert the right ways of the Lord, using God's gracious plan and His great mercy as an excuse for careless living or unconcern for lost men, but to those children of the Most High God who, seeing their infinite identity in Christ, are consumed with the holy passion of becoming the very instrument of God to fight the good fight of faith, destroying sin and death and hell, and bringing all men back into the loving embrace of their God and Redeemer. So be it!
Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1
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John 9:4-5
4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
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I have responded to you before re that passage and, as usual, don't expect you to reply to what i've said:
Here is the next verse of the context, telling us what kind of "works" are being referred to:
Jn.9:6 When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay,
John 9:4-5 speaks of night (which is when it gets dark). Compare:
Mt.27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
Was Jesus laying hands on - or did He "anoint" (Jn.9:6) - any blind, sick or lame people when on the cross in darkness? Were His 12 apostles?
Compare: "Day signifies Jesus Messianic ministry, and the night refers to the Crucifixion" (NKJV note at Jn.9:4, see url below):
NKJV, New Spirit-Filled Life Bible, eBook
and
"Day signifies Jesus Messianic ministry, and the night refers to the Crucifixion" (NIV note at Jn.9:4, see url below):
NIV, New Spirit-Filled Life Bible, eBook
Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.
Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death.
Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.
Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help
213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers
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Well if Romans 5:18-19 were the only passage concerned withwho gets saved and how, it would make a fairly storng case for UR, but it isn't and when all the verses about salvation and eternity are included, your case falls apart.
Read these sites already! As I told you, they are guilty of misapplying verses to all men and not just believers, make assumptions and abuse grammar horrendously.
But they failed to show one verse that the lost can repent and get saved in the lake of fire!
Well then you have to agree that aionios life is only temporary! Teh only two things that the Bible says are aidios are Gods power and the chains of the angels in Jude!
John 3:36, REv. 14:9-11
aion (noun) aionios (adjective) are perfectly fine Greek words for eternity or endless or everlasting! They can also be used for an unspecified time period or even a specified time period (like the age of enlightenment)
Yet he used those same less than best words for eternal life and you are perfectly fine accepting them for life in heaven.
And you lord will not cast off- is for believers not unbelievers. Remember Matt. 7, God has no relationship with the lost!
Now show that kolasis (punishment) means correction and not punishment as the vast super majority of Greek liguistic experts translated it as.
Now show from scripture that the lake of fire is corrective!
my bad spelling
diorthosi,
sophronismos (verbal correction by exhortation)
epanorthosis
These are the best are unambiguous words for chastening for correction.
and teh grand prize: paideia which is chastening for correction based on love!
kolasis in its primary and usual usage is punish! just like timera. aion (noun) and aionios (adjective) primary and nomral usage are ever, forever, eternal, everlasting, unless modified to limit its time scope.
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You have responded before and I have replied before. You are entitled to your opinion and as usual quote a verse here and a verse there but nothing refutes anything I posted.ClementofA said:
You are claiming that Jesus could not work at night when it was dark. Jesus said "night when no one can work." He certainly wasn't talking about men working in the night time because it is recorded that the disciples fished all night.
Matthew 14:25
25 Shortly before dawn Jesus went out to them, walking on the lake.
Mark 6:48
48 He saw the disciples straining at the oars, because the wind was against them. Shortly before dawn he went out to them, walking on the lake. He was about to pass by them,
Jesus could work at night when it was dark. So in Jn 9:4 Jesus was not talking about nighttime on earth. 25 Shortly before dawn Jesus went out to them, walking on the lake.
Mark 6:48
48 He saw the disciples straining at the oars, because the wind was against them. Shortly before dawn he went out to them, walking on the lake. He was about to pass by them,
John 9:4 As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work.
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Hebrews 12:11 King James Version (KJV)
11 Now no chastening (paideia) for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Whoops, God seems disagrees with you
And if those in the lake of fire are his children, would he not wish to paideia them because He loves them???????????????????????????????????????
Well they still were believers , but that is another topic for another thread!
But if ou wish to use this argument than you sink your own argument! If they stopped being believers, then God is still chastening them as instruction WHILE ACCORDING TO YOU THEY ARE UNBELIEVERS! Not kolasis, not timera, not diorthosi, nor sophronismos or epanorthis.
Remember this is not killing them but while they are alive, handed over just like in Corinthians.
It seems you cannot see the forest for the trees! We are just referring to kolasis. Kolasis does not carry with it a time or length. It simply means punishment! aionios tells us that punishment will be neverending!
Unless of course you are going to stick to aidios meaning eternal and aionios is not. Matt. 25 if punishment is not everlasting, then life as well is not everlasting!
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Well if you mean for especially the greek word malista: Then it does mean specifically or above all elseand also uniquely. But as it does not appear in a soteriological sense- your question is moot.
This is a deceptive statement! First you will not find it in the Bible and second it is designed to produce a false answer!
I assume you are referring to this passage:
Romans 8:19-23 King James Version (KJV)
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Paul sets us in distinction from the rest of creation! Creation was placed under a curse in Gen. 3 and will be released when the sons of God are made manifest! So this is not an argument for your UR hypothesis.
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So you believe every flea, microbe, bird, dog, cat etc. all will be in heaven?
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Ta pavnte is all encompassing. It is NOT the radical all of pas, it is the super radical "the all."
By these three prepositions Paul ascribes the universe (ta panta) with all the phenomena concerning creation, redemption, providence to God as the…
Ex= The Source
Di= The Agent
Eiv= The Goal
The Koine, ta pavnte, is the strongest word for all in the Scriptures; it literally means the all.
ta pavnte/ ta panta, “in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the all things, the universe, and, everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.”
**It is not in the limited sense of “nearly all”, “pavnte” minus “ta”
The final preposition [eiv) reveals the ultimate goal of all that is. What has been provided in Christ is a re-turn, a re-storation, a re-newing, a re-demption, a re-concilation, a re-surrection, a re-stitution.
The prefix “re” means back again, again, anew–and all the words with this prefix speak of something that left its place and has now made its circuit and come back to the point of its beginning.
In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down… down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis
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I recognize that there will be some still unanswered questions in some minds, but there is neither time to write nor finances to print a treatise dealing with every small point. How can we put the ocean of eternal truth into the limited pages of one small book? If God will have all men to be saved, and the Scripture is very clear on this point, then there must be a way by which this truth falls into perfect harmony with every other Scripture which seems to teach otherwise. We do ourselves much injury when we seize upon every Scripture which proclaims the salvation of all men, but carefully avoid all Scripture which speaks of the fearful judgment of the wicked. Yet even greater harm is done when people insist upon taking the other point of view, as almost the entire Church system has done for centuries, emphasizing only those Scriptures which seem to teach the unending doom of those unfortunate creatures who never once heard that God had a Son and skillfully avoiding every direct statement of Scripture which indicates that God has reconciled all things to Himself, and that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess to God of things in heaven and things in earth and under the earth. There is always a place of harmony if we look for it, and it is not usually difficult to find. Otherwise we will be forced onto that untenable ground of having to say that the Bible contradicts itself - which, of course, it never does. Whenever you find two Scriptures that seem to set forth conflicting views, there is always a simple explanation, and, if we will diligently inquire of the Lord, He will give us a definite answer. Human understanding is almost always prone to seize upon one side of a statement and will cling to that with the grip of death, refusing to even investigate or seek the wisdom of God to harmonize the truth. Worldly wise men are forever saying that the Bible contradicts itself.
Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1
Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1
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Jesus wasn't referring to a past night, as per your verses, but to a future night. Before then "we" (v.4a), that is Jesus & His listeners, must "do the works of him who sent me" (v.4a). What works? The immediate context in verse 6 gives a clue, where Jesus applied mud to a blind man's eyes & he was later healed. Was Jesus or His disciples performing such works while there was darkness (as at night) when He was on the cross?
An alternate interpretation is that "night" refers to "death" in "Night is coming, when no one can work" (John 9:4b). When people are in their graves dead, they are not working. Jesus' body wasn't working laying hands on any blind men while in the grave. However, after Jesus' body rose He appeared to & spoke to His disciples, preached to Saul who became the apostle Paul, is presently interceding for the saints, will yet raise the dead & reign in the millennium, etc. That sounds like a lot of works.
About all you've done regarding this passage is repeatedly post it when the subject of postmortem repentance or salvation arises. As if it is a "proof text" that there is no after death salvation possible. Yet you've never explained how the passage supports your view. So what is there to refute? Nothing. For you never made a case to begin with that proved this passage rejects after death repentance.. And above i've offered two different interpretations of the passage that make it harmonious with the possibility of after death salvation. So the burden of proof lies with you to (1) offer up a better interpretation that (2) refutes those two above. Otherwise John 9:4-5 remains in the dumpster of many failed attempts to refute universalism.
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Your first weak attempt failed now in desperation you try a different argument. I only had one argument which has NOT been disproved.ClementofA said:
Jesus did not say, or imply "night is coming when I cannot work but don't worry I'll be back." Jesus did not preach to Paul in the flesh. He said "no man can work" And those who have died cannot work.
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What words?
It speaks of "men" not "believers":
Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)
(Acts 17:28): “For 'in him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we too are his offspring. '”
I've already stated that the translation "punishment" is fine with me. The question remains whether or not it is corrective punishment or purely pointless, sadistic & monstrous punishment.
Since aionios in the same verse (Mt.25:46) often refers to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek & there were better words to express endlessness unambiguously, it should be evident that Jesus was not teaching the endless tortures doctrine there.
Do you have verse references?
If you recall Israel in the OT were given "exhortations" by the prophets. When the people refused to listen & continued in wickedness, God felt the need to bring actual punishment upon the people, often with the intent to correct them. Evidently those of Mt.25:46 will be in need of something more than just "exhortations", even though Jesus gives them a few words before sending them off into the "fire". As we saw with the rich man in "fire" in "torments" in Luke 16:19-31, he was called "son" or "child" & was receiving corrective instructions.
And further to Israel being corrected with punishment in the OT with something more severe than mere "exhortations", since they obviously were not working to bring them to repentance:
Hab.1:12 O LORD my God, my Holy One, you who are eternal--surely you do not plan to wipe us out? O LORD, our Rock, you have sent these Babylonians to correct us, to punish us for our many sins.
Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)
Isaiah 12:1
Then you will say on that day, "I will give thanks to You, O LORD; For although You were angry with me, Your anger is turned away, And You comfort me.
Hosea 6:1
"Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bandage us.
Isa.57:17 “Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him;
I hid My face and was angry, And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart.
18“I have seen his ways, but I will heal him;
I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners,
And in the NT we see the same, even in regards to postmortem punishment:
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
In 1 Cor.5 a sinning "brother" is not listening to the "exhortations" of the church. So he is given over for harsher dealings, i.e. to Satan for the destruction of his flesh. This is for his salvation.
In 1 Tim.1:19-20 two people who have rejected faith and a good conscience & made shipwreck of their faith are also given to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme. These two appear to be even worse sinners than those in Matthew 25:31-46.
Moreover in the very first chapter of Matthew we read:
Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.
The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context, i.e. the OT nation. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who opposed Christ. Matthew 25:46 should be understood in that light. He "shall save His people from their sins" (Mt.1:21).
BTW the book of Matthew is the first book of the NT, Revelation being the last. In the very first chapter of the first book of the NT, God declares the end (Mt.1:21) from the beginning:
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: (Isa.46:10)
What's God's "pleasure" which He will do (Isa.46:10):
1 Tim.2:4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth; 5 for one [is] God, one also [is] mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who did give himself a ransom for all — the testimony in its own times
The bottom line is:
Mercy triumphs over judgment. (Js. 2:13b)
That word regards the training & education of children. So it's not applicable to the goats of Matthew 25, either in the literal sense or as children of God. OTOH the word Jesus used at Mt.25:46 can refer to corrective punishment of goat people, so is quite appropriate there, as the expert opinions here indicate:
KOLASIS:
Are You of Israel?
Yet if Jesus wished to declare something so horrific as "endless tortures" would be the destiny for the goats, He had the language to easily do so, & to do it unambiguously & clearly, so there would be no question as to His intent. Obviously that was not His intent, which explains why He never did it, either in Mt.25:46 or anywhere else in the Bible.
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What disagreement? And, no, those in the LOF are not His children - yet.
(Acts 17:28): “For 'in him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we too are his offspring. '”
"For God so loved the world..." (Jn.3:16a)
Considering they appear to be as bad or worse than those of Mt.25:46, it would appear to support my view that the goats are to be receiving corrective punishment. As opposed to pointless endless Hitler like gassing or tortures that have no end. Which Jesus could have expressed very clearly & unambiguously, if He desired or if He believed in such. But He didn't.
As for 1 Tim.1:19-20 being a chastening as instruction, i question if that was the nature of this punishment, since they were to be given over to Satan (cf. 1 Cor.5 where the being given over to Satan involves destruction of the flesh). Compare also:
For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. (2 Peter 2:21)
Clearly you don't understand how adjectives work. See below.
XYZ said:
That's your assumption which just ignores & does not address what i posted, & the case made here:
Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?
Even if the 2 aionios are coequal in Mt.25:46, that is harmonious with universalism:
Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
XYZ said:
You claim Mt.25:46 as a proof text against universalism. I showed 2 separate reasonable universalist interpretations of the text. In order for your "proof text" interpretation to remain a "proof" you must refute both of my reasonable universalist interpretations & prove them false. Since you've failed to do so, your "proof text" fails as a "proof text". All you are left with, therefore, is a theory, while being unable to refute the 2 alternate reasonable interpretations that I posted, as follows:
There are two main universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46:
(1) The aionion life & the aionion punishment refer to contrasting eonian destinies pertaining to a finite eonian period to come, e.g. the millennial eon. The verse has nothing to do, & says nothing about, final destiny. Regarding the endless life of the righteous in Christ, other passages address that topic, such as those that speak of immortality, incorruption & being unable to die.
(2) Another universalist option in interpretating Mt.25:46 is that aionion life refers to a perpetual life that lasts as long as God Almighty wills it to last, so it is endless. OTOH, aionion punishment refers to a perpetual punishment that also lasts as long as Love Omnipotent wills it to last, which is until it has served its useful purpose in bringing the offender to the salvation in their Savior, Who died & shed His blood for their sins. While life is an end in itself, punishment is a means to an end.
Furthermore, since aionion is an adjective, it "must therefore function like an adjective, and it is the very nature of an adjective for its meaning to vary, sometimes greatly, depending upon which noun it qualifies." A tall chair is not the same height as a tall mountain. Likewise, the aionion punishment is not of the same duration as the aionion life.
That was a brief explanation of the main two different universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46. Following are more elaborate remarks in support of these two perspectives:
Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?
XYZ said:
Interpretation 1 above accepts the parallel of "eonian destinies". So the parallel there is not denied. Likewise interpretation 2 above acknowledging parallel perpetual destinies. But that the word perpetual can vary according to its subject.
XYZ said:
Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:
Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."
1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.
Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.
While these translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:
The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."
Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."
Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."
Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."
Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."
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