Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."
Just so we know where the spirit goes. But since I confused you using the word Heaven (although we know Lazarus is there)
You think everyone who dies goes to God in heaven? And inside of God is Hades where the rich man was being tormented, or some such nonsense?
Let's just say to make things easier, when the spirit passes, there are are two sides which one can go and there's a gulf between them.
But you just quoted Ecc.12:7 that says they go to God. Do they go to God or to Hades or paradise or "two sides which one can go and there's a gulf between them" wherever that is supposed to be?
I assumed once again that you were familiar with the Luke passages, obviously not according to these words - "apparently Lazarus also is in Hades"
There is a fairly common view that Hades has two sections to it, one of torments & the other is paradise. On the cross Jesus said, today you will be with Me in paradise. Not in heaven. An internet search will reveal much info on this, for example the following random sample:
"Hades/Sheol is pictured as having two compartments in both the Old and New Testaments...
The two compartment place where departed conscious spirits of the dead await judgment."
Hades: The conscious realm of the dead!
The point is one can't pass to the other side and vice versa. Are you missing that from this this teaching from Christ?
Not at all. It is perfectly harmonious with the teaching of scriptural universalism, as i've shown here:
Hell
I Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"
I Peter 3:19 "By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison,"
I Peter 3:20 "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering for God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."
They are spirits, meaning they have passed on. The spirit goes back to God. As Christ teaches, there are two sides with a huge vacant interval that can't be passed.
So it's your view the "spirits in prison" have returned to God & this prison is in heaven? And that the rich man in Hades (Lk.16) was actually one of these "spirits in prison" in heaven while being in "hell" (Hades) at the same time? So you're trying to tell me that "hell" is in heaven, eh? Does that about sum up your doctrine? Hell is in heaven?
Again, easy verses to understand. Once Christ was quickened by the spirit, (something he made possible for us as well) and by that spirit preached unto the spirits in prison.
So now you're supporting an after death salvation opportunity for the unsaved and the wicked in this "hell" (Hades) which you say is in heaven?
There's nothing fanciful about that, just scripture. These aren't the fallen angels whose sin was much greater. These are people that were "sometimes" disobedient.
I don't see what it matters where Lazarus was as far as your claim is concerned. You tried to use the Luke 16 parable to support your claim that Satan was not among those in the heavens to be reconciled as per these verses:
Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
You were, as far as i can tell, claiming those in the heavens who needed reconciling were human beings "in prison" in heaven. You failed to provide any scripturally cogent argument for such a position. You also ignored the passages i provided showing evil non human beings in the heavens.
There's nothing fanciful about that, just scripture. These aren't the fallen angels whose sin was much greater. These are people that were "sometimes" disobedient.
It looks more like some scripture plus some fanciful additions to it. Like assuming the rich man in torments in "hell" (Hades) was actually in heaven. And the "spirits in prison" Christ preached to were in a heavenly prison.
Yet it still ignores the fact of Satan being in the presence of God (Job 1-2) & God's intent to reconcile those in the heavens (Col.1:20), including the non human beings in heaven:
There are wicked spirits in heavenly places, but they are not humans:
Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
Question: Where are the "principalities" and "powers" (v.16 above)?
Answer: They are "in heavenly places":
Eph. 3:8 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God
Question: Who are the "principalities" and "powers" (v.16 above)?
Answer: They are wicked and not human:
Eph.6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Now, with that knowledge, read Col.1:16, 20 again:
Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
""I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;
COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling but demons.
Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."
If you can't see that the King of Tyre is Satan, I can't help you. He was created a cherub and in the garden of Eden.
Perhaps, then, when Jesus said to chop your offensive hands & feet off & pluck out your offensive eyes, you took that literally, too? How many body parts do you have left now?
When someone says of a human "he's an angel" do you take that literally, too.
Satan was a serpent in the garden of Eden, not a cherub. The only cherubs in the garden of Eden are referred to here & none of them is Satan:
Gen.3:24 yea, he casteth out the man, and causeth to dwell at the east of the garden of Eden the cherubs and the flame of the sword which is turning itself round to guard the way of the tree of life.
Satan was not a lowly king of a measly little place called Tyrus. He offered Jesus the kingdoms of the whole world!
And, again, Satan, a non physical spirit being cannot be turned into physical ashes (Ezek.28:19).
"Thou hast been in Eden the Garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the Sardis, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created."
Again, "created", not born of woman here-a chereub.
Ezekiel 28:14 "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire."
Ezekiel 28:15 "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."
God creates all beings (Psa.89:27; 102:18; Isa.43:7), including humans. So the word "created" can apply to humans like Ezek.28 says the king of Tyre is (v.2,9).
"Moreover, it is always well to inquire what is intended by "perfect" in the Scriptures. The Greek has three words for "perfect," and the Hebrew uses it for about six. It is questionable whether it ever denotes sinlessness. Any other meaning would be of little value in this discussion. The word used in Ezekiel 28:15 is tahmeem, meaning flawless. The A. V. renders it without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely, sincerity, sound, without spot, undefiled, upright, uprightly, whole. It is most often found of the animals used in sacrifice. Noah was "perfect" (Gen.6:9) in his generations. This certainly does not mean that he was sinless. David said, "I was also upright perfect before Him." Does this prove that David escaped the lot of all of Adam's descendants up to this time? It is evident that the meaning is limited to apparent flaws, not to innate tendencies. It is not a question of sinlessness."
If you can't see that the King of Tyre is Satan, I can't help you. He was created a cherub and in the garden of Eden.
Then perhaps your excessive literality should also lead you to believe Pharoah was really a literal tree in the garden of Eden & a sea monster:
"Ezekiel himself is full of graphic, poetic images and metaphors (comparisons in which one thing is simply called another without “like” or “as”), one of which is a statement that Pharaoh was a tree in Eden, God’s garden (Ezek. 31:1-18; he is also a sea monster, 29:3-5)."
"...Yet another explanation is better than either the devil-interpretation or the Adam-interpretation: Ezekiel explicitly compares the ruler of Babylon to a cherub (28:14-15). Genesis calls neither Adam nor the serpent a cherub, but does refer explicitly to cherubim in the garden: God’s angels stationed there to keep Adam and Eve out after their fall (Gen. 3:24; cf. Ezek. 28:14-15 NIV: “guardian cherub”).
"...Having this in mind, when we read verses 11-19 we must understand that this is figurative language describing the former blessing of the king of Tyre when he was being faithful to God."
"...in Eden—The king of Tyre is represented in his former high state (contrasted with his subsequent downfall), under images drawn from the primeval man in Eden, the type of humanity in its most Godlike form."
"...vs. 14 uses the word "cherub", but it is still part of the poetical hyberbole of the comparison of the kings fall into pride and sin with the fall of Adam. This chapter is not about a fallen angel from heaven."
"...Yes, it is a metaphor. Many metaphors are indicated by the words "as", or "like". But when poetry is used, metaphors are to be understood as implied."
"...Indeed the text isn't clear there (whether he was the anointed cherub or with the anointed cherub"
"...When there is an inspired narrative that contains a significant portion of symbolism (as several biblical books do) and there is no specific historical connection within the immediate context, the conscientious Bible student must seek to determine, on the basis of a broader context, what the background of the text may be."
"In other words, he is not at liberty to extract, from his own imagination, an “interpretation” that is wholly alien to the historical text or that stands in contradiction to information found elsewhere in the scriptures."
"On the other hand, when the context specifically identifies the thrust of the symbolism, the issue is settled. And it is nothing short of exegetical criminality to substitute one’s personal “expository agenda” for that which the inspired author has stated explicitly."
If you are not in the book of life, you have not come to repentance. I guess we're not even allowed common sense on this thread but ok.
Evidently missing the point of my remark. Obviously "If you are not in the book of life, you have not come to repentance" - yet - but that doesn't mean you will never be added to the "book of life". Or deny that all people will eventually do so.
I had stated: "There's no Bible verse that says "Not all will come to repentance, since not all are written in the book of life." And the above remark was your reply.
There's no Bible verse that says "Not all will come to repentance, since not all are written in the book of life."
To the contrary:
Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."
1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.
"through the obedience of the One" again there's the conditon.
It's a condition that has been fulfilled! You know, Christ's obedience unto death on the cross after living a perfectly obedient life.
My husband says I must pull myself from this thread lol. And he's probably right.
Bon voyage!
