Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

[Saint Steven]

FUNDAMENTALISM ANSWERS: Only those who here and now, during the fleeting years of this life, truly repent and receive the Lord Jesus as Saviour are saved. All others have been and are and shall be eternally lost without retrieve and go to a merciless, hopeless, hell-fire and damnation.

There is one beautiful and undeniable truth in the Word of God. The Scriptures clearly show that there is only one ground of salvation and that is FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST as our Redeemer and Lord. "By grace are you saved, through faith" (Eph. 2:8). Justification by faith is the underlying principle of the whole system of New Testament revelation. When asked, "What must I do to be saved?" the apostles answered, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved" (Acts 16:31). "There is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Rom. 10:13).

The apostle Paul warned of those who would depart from the utter simplicity of this truth to preach ANOTHER WAY, and ANOTHER GOSPEL. "I fear lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth ANOTHER Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive ANOTHER Spirit, which ye have not received, or ANOTHER Gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him" (II Cor. 11:3-4). ANOTHER JESUS, ANOTHER SPIRIT, ANOTHER GOSPEL - ANOTHER W-A-Y!

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

 

[Der Alte]

...
There is one beautiful and undeniable truth in the Word of God. The Scriptures clearly show that there is only one ground of salvation and that is FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST as our Redeemer and Lord. "By grace are you saved, through faith" (Eph. 2:8). Justification by faith is the underlying principle of the whole system of New Testament revelation. When asked, "What must I do to be saved?" the apostles answered, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved" (Acts 16:31). "There is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Rom. 10:13)....

Unfortunately the writings of J.P. Eby are not canon. This is all true but,

John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Psalms 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.​

 

[ClementofA]

Unfortunately the writings of J.P. Eby are not canon. This is all true but,

John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Psalms 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.​

I only had one argument which has NOT been disproved.
Jesus did not say, or imply "night is coming when I cannot work but don't worry I'll be back." Jesus did not preach to Paul in the flesh. He said "no man can work" And those who have died cannot work.

What argument? Where does any of that, or anything in John 9, say, imply, suggest or even hint that maybe people cannot repent or be saved after death? It looks to me like you've got nothing.

Jesus did not say, as you allege, "those who have died cannot work". And even if that were true, their resurrection from death back to life might reverse that.

Jesus said "night cometh, when no man can work". He didn't say "once night cometh no man will ever have another chance to repent or be saved".

What does it matter if "Jesus did not preach to Paul in the flesh". Work is work, regardless. As is His intercession, raising the dead, judging the world, etc.

Since He appeared to & spoke to His disciples & preached postmortem, then such works continued & nothing in John 9 rules out Jesus doing so in Hades & the LOF for the repentance & salvation of those there.

Moreover the context in John 9 isn't even talking about salvation, but healing a blind man so he can see:

1And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. 2And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. 4I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. 5As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world. 6When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay, 7And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing. 8The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? 9Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he. 10Therefore said they unto him, How were thine eyes opened? 11He answered and said, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to the pool of Siloam, and wash: and I went and washed, and I received sight. 12Then said they unto him, Where is he? He said, I know not.

Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish

A number of commentators apply verse 14 to - nations - God had (past tense) destroyed in this world, which means it could have nothing to do with the - future - final destiny of individuals - postmortem in another world. Furthermore, many translations do not put it in the future tense "shall not live" as the KJV does, but in the present tense "do not live". Both of these points defeat the verse as an annihilationist "proof text".

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Compare Lk.16:19-31. Did the "rich man" in Hades "know not any thing"? Or is Eccl.9:5 speaking of corpses such as are, for example, put in graves?

Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Psalms 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

See my previous comment.

 

[agapelove]

Unfortunately the writings of J.P. Eby are not canon. This is all true but,

John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Psalms 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.​

1 Thessalonians 5:6-10 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

 

[nolidad]

Not at all. Is that your interpretation of the passage i quoted:

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

Maybe surveying some other versions will clear things up for you:

Lamentations 3:33 For He does not willingly afflict or grieve the sons of men.

Well then I guess you think god afflicts and grieves the sons of men against His will. I can think of a couple:Sodom and Gomorrah and all the times God sent armies to afflict Israel, not to mention the ten plagues in Egypt!

It is your understanding that is in error.

That is just a collection of unsupported opinion &/or outright false statements.

Then I await your empirical evidence to show dictionaries wrong!

When? Around the time of Plato? Please provide documented proof.

Sorry, do your own work!

Context determines meaning. Not your conjecture, speculation or unsupported theories.

Could most modern translations be in error?

the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionion zoe) in John:

Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

Repeating your posts do not make them truer.

Context in a sense determines meaning. The context has to have a modifier to make aionios mean something less than eternal.

And aion when it is used of life after the millenial kingdom or events after the millenial kingdom is always eternal!

YOu still haven't shown one verse yet that declares the inhabitants of the lake of fire are granted repentance or even will repent!

Timoria occurs in Hebrews 10:29 regarding Divinely sanctioned punishment & is, arguably, applicable to postmortem punishment:

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Sorry but timora in Heb. 10:29 is not referring to postmortem torture, but torture in this life! The context of Hebrews is to get Jews rto turn to Christ and the warning in Heb. 10 is for those who already knew that jesus was Messiah but had not yet received Him.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.

Correct! though your translation leaves much to be diesired. Jesus death provided justification for all, and as Jesus and Paul often said- the requirement is to place faith in the death and physical resurrection of Jesus for sin! Jesus' blood is sufficient to save all! All that God requires is trust in teh death and resurrection!

You have yet to show that inhabitants of the lake of fire have the ability to exercise repentance unto salvation!

The point is that there are corrections beyond the mere "exhortations" you referred to. So your "exhortations" argument is dismissed.

Of course! But all those happened in this life! YOu have still failed to show that the lake of fire is corrective torture and not an eternal sentence!

"The following is a simple, clear syllogism supporting Universalism. This syllogism is an argument built on premises taken directly from Scripture.

Premise 1: God desires all be saved. (e.g., 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires (thelo) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.")

Premise 2: God accomplishes all He desires. (e.g., Isaiah 55:11: "So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire (thelo, from the Septuagint), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.")

Conclusion: All will be saved."

1 Timothy 2:4 + God does all He desires = all will be saved?

syllogisms about Scripture are inherently dangerous.

Proverbs 14:12
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Proverbs 3:5-6 King James Version (KJV)
5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Yes Gods Word always accomplishes what He WILLED (not the anthropormorphic desire) it to do!

2 Corinthians 2:15-16 King James Version (KJV)
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

John 15:19
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Sometimes Gods Word is to seal ones condemnation!!!!!

 

[Saint Steven]

Many today who claim to be "Bible believing," "Evangelical" or "Fundamental" preach ANOTHER GOSPEL and ANOTHER W-A-Y OF SALVATION. There are some who feel the burden of the awful doctrine of eternal torture which they embrace, and unconsciously their souls revolt at the ghastly conclusions to which it leads. Such ones have resorted to various makeshifts to escape the inevitable conclusions. I will mention two or three of these. It is said that although it is true that the great mass of the race have thus far died in their sins, yet it does not follow that they have been lost; for if those who are unavoidably ignorant live up to the light they have, they will be saved. These claim that Paul teaches that IGNORANCE will save men, when he says that "The Gentiles, which have not the law, are a law unto themselves" (Rom. 2:14). They gather from this that the law which their conscience furnishes is sufficient to justify them. But such persons misunderstand Paul. His argument is that the whole world is guilty before God (Rom. 3:19); that the Gentiles, who had not the written law, were condemned, not justified, by the light of conscience, which, whether it excused them or accused them proved that they were unworthy sinners and thus estranged from the life of God, even as Israel who had the written law were condemned by it; "For by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Rom. 3:20). The law given to the Israelite revealed his weakness, and was intended to show him that he was unable to justify himself before God; for "By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight." The written law condemned the Israelite, and the Gentiles had light enough in their conscience to condemn them; and thus every mouth is stopped from claiming any inherent life, and all the world stands guilty before God.

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

 

[Der Alte]

1 Thessalonians 5:6-10 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

So the way you interpret that verse it contradicts even the words of Jesus?

John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.​

What was Jesus' work? Luke 4:18-19 and it does not involve preaching to dead people in the grave.

Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Psalms 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.​

 

[ClementofA]

Well then I guess you think god afflicts and grieves the sons of men against His will.

New Living Translation
For he does not enjoy hurting people or causing them sorrow.

English Standard Version
for he does not afflict from his heart or grieve the children of men.

Sorry but timora in Heb. 10:29 is not referring to postmortem torture, but torture in this life!

Nope. It's clear:

Timoria occurs in Hebrews 10:29 regarding Divinely sanctioned punishment & is, arguably, applicable to postmortem punishment:

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

 

[agapelove]

So the way you interpret that verse it contradicts even the words of Jesus?

I interpreted nothing I simply quoted the text as it was written.

John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.​

What was Jesus' work? Luke 4:18-19 and it does not involve preaching to dead people in the grave.

Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Psalms 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.​

Yep dead people can't really do much.

Ephesians 2:1-5 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath. But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved!

 

[Der Alte]

I interpreted nothing I simply quoted the text as it was written.
Yep dead people can't really do much.
Ephesians 2:1-5 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath. But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved!

So you think the verses you quoted refute or negate what Jesus said? And you think this refutes my post how?
Jesus was not talking about people being dead in their trespasses and sins. He said "I must work for the night is coming when no man can work." It was a future event not a then existing condition.

 

[agapelove]

So you think the verses you quoted refute or negate what Jesus said? And you think this refutes my post how?

Wasn't trying to "negate" anything. It actually harmonizes quite well. When the night comes no man can work. In death we can do nothing. But by grace we are made alive and saved even when we are dead, so that we may live with Him, whether we were awake (working) or asleep (not working).

 

[Der Alte]

Wasn't trying to "negate" anything. It actually harmonizes quite well. When the night comes no man can work. In death we can do nothing. But by grace we are made alive and saved even when we are dead, so that we may live with Him, whether we were awake (working) or asleep (not working).

Nonsense. No scripture says "by grace we are made alive and saved even when we are dead."
What was Jesus' work? Luke 4:18-19 and it does not involve preaching to dead people in the grave.
Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Psalms 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

 

[Saint Steven]

Remembering the statement of James (2:10), that whosoever shall keep the whole law, except to offend in one point, is guilty of all, and cannot claim any blessing promised by the Law Covenant, we realize that indeed "there is none righteous; no, not one" (Rom. 3:10). And thus the Scriptures close every door of hope save one, showing that not one of the condemned is able to secure eternal life by meritorious works, and that it is equally useless to plead ignorance as a ground of salvation. Ignorance cannot entitle anyone to the REWARD of faith and obedience! Salvation by IGNORANCE! Indeed! ANOTHER GOSPEL! ANOTHER WAY! "For there is none other name under heaven, given among men, whereby we M-U-S-T be saved!" (Acts 4:12).

Many Christians, unwilling to believe that so many billions of ignorant heathen will be eternally lost (which they have been taught means to be sent to a place of eternal and hopeless torment), insist, notwithstanding these Bible statements, that God will not condemn the ignorant. I admire their liberality of heart and their appreciation of God's goodness, but urge them not to be too hasty about discarding or ignoring the words of Scripture. God has a blessing for all, IN A BETTER WAY THAN THROUGH IGNORANCE!

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

 

[agapelove]

Nonsense. No scripture says "by grace we are made alive and saved even when we are dead."

What part of what I said was nonsense?

The part where we are dead in our transgressions? The part where we are made alive in Christ? The part where we are saved by grace?

2 Corinthians 5:14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.

Romans 6:10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

Romans 6:11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions.

Ephesians 5:13-14 Everything exposed by the light becomes visible—and everything that is illuminated becomes a light. This is why it is said: “Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”

Ephesians 2:1-5 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins... But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Ephesians 2:9 And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people.

 

[Saint Steven]

But do these erring ones act in accordance with their stated belief? NO! Though they profess to believe that the ignorant will be saved on account of their ignorance, they continue to send missionaries to the heathen at the cost of thousands of valuable lives and untold millions of dollars. If they all, or even half of them, would be saved through ignorance, it is doing them a positive injury to send missionaries to teach them of Christ; for only about one in a thousand believes when the missionaries go to them. If this idea be correct, it would be much better to let them remain in ignorance; for then a much larger proportion would be saved. Continuing the same line of argument, might we not reason that if God had left ALL MEN in ignorance, ALL would have been saved? If so, the coming and death of Jesus were useless, the preaching and suffering of apostles and saints were vain, and the so-called Gospel, instead of being good news, is very bad news. Leave the heathen alone in their darkness and ignorance and the majority will be saved by living up to the light they have. Send them the Gospel and we know from past experience that the majority of them will reject it and be lost. These conclusions are inevitable. You cannot escape them while you entertain the notion of the majority of the heathen being saved by living up to the light they have. Such reasoning is a hideous affront to the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, and a wicked blasphemy against God and His plan of redemption. ANOTHER GOSPEL! ANOTHER W-A-Y!

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

 

[Der Alte]

,...

What part of what I said was nonsense?
The part where we are dead in our transgressions? The part where we are made alive in Christ? The part where we are saved by grace?
2 Corinthians 5:14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
Romans 6:10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
Romans 6:11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions.
Ephesians 5:13-14 Everything exposed by the light becomes visible—and everything that is illuminated becomes a light. This is why it is said: “Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”
Ephesians 2:1-5 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins... But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
Ephesians 2:9 And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people.

...

Not even one verse says that the unrighteous/unrepentant will be saved after they physically die. As shown by all the 1st and 2nd person pronouns Paul was talking to and about then living not dead people. Not even Titus 2:11 says the unrighteous will be saved after death.

Titus 2:11-13
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Titus 3:10-11
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
● 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
● Galatians 5:19-21
(19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
(20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.
● Ephesians 5:3-5
(3) But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
(4) Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
(5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.​

In three different epistles [books] Paul lists many people who do not have any inheritance in the kingdom of heaven. Please show a verse, two or more would be better, where Paul says “Oops I made a mistake, all these people will be reconciled even if they were sinful and unrighteous when they died."

​

 

[FineLinen]

1 Thessalonians 5:6-10 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

The work of Jesus the Christ as the Archegos & Prodromos prevails. He has seen the impasse but nothing stands before Him as the Prince-Leader.

Nothing !

 

[ClementofA]

.

Titus 3:10-11
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself
​

1 Cor.5:5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, a b so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

11But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister c but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.” d

.

● 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neitherfornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
● Galatians 5:19-21
(19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
(20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.
● Ephesians 5:3-5
(3) But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
(4) Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
(5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

​

In three different epistles [books] Paul lists many people who do not have any inheritance in the kingdom of heaven. Please show a verse, two or more would be better, where Paul says “Oops I made a mistake, all these people will be reconciled even if they were sinful and unrighteous when they died."

Where does Paul ever qualify his warnings about who cannot enter the kingdom of God by saying "not until they repent & cease being unrighteous?" I can't seem to find that
qualification anywhere in Paul's writings. Do you suppose that Paul forgot to put that in and that is why unis today have to interject that into every one of Paul's warnings?

It's right in front of your eyes, if you read the next verse after those you quoted:

1 Cor 6:9-11

"Know ye not that THE UNRIGHTEOUS shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

"And SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

As a commentator says:

"Wait a minute. If the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God, why does Paul say "and such were some of you?" If they were unrighteous, then how did they inherit the kingdom?"

"They had to be cleansed first, of course. As long as anyone is not cleansed, they have no part inside. But once cleansed, they they entered the kingdom."

So the passages you quoted are perfectly harmonious with universal salvation.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism


Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death.

Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

 

[nolidad]

Nope. It's clear:

Timoria occurs in Hebrews 10:29 regarding Divinely sanctioned punishment & is, arguably, applicable to postmortem punishment:

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Wrong but you agree with most of Christendom who do not understand what is happening concerning the writing of the letter of Hebrews!

Again with the Nazis. You are fixated on Hitler!

New Living Translation
For he does not enjoy hurting people or causing them sorrow.

English Standard Version
for he does not afflict from his heart or grieve the children of men.

Well as you only like to accept the Scriptures that follow YOUR agenda, I will give you these:

John 3:36 King James Version (KJV)
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

1 Kings 8:35
When heaven is shut up, and there is no rain, because they have sinned against thee; if they pray toward this place, and confess thy name, and turn from their sin, when thou afflictest them:

1 Kings 11:39
And I will for this afflict the seed of David, but not for ever.

2 Kings 17:20
And the Lord rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight.

Psalm 44:2
How thou didst drive out the heathen with thy hand, and plantedst them; how thou didst afflict the people, and cast them out.

Psalm 7:11
God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

You need to deal with the fact God does not fit into your preconceived agenda!

 

[Der Alte]

...
Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.
Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death...

Godwin's law "as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1"
Once again you presume to know what the writer of Hebrews should/should not have said in any situation.

EOB Hebrews 10 25 Instead exhort one another, and even more as you see the Day approaching. 26 But if we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there is no more sacrifice for sins. 27 All that remains is a fearful expectation of judgment and a fury of fire which will devour the adversaries 28 One who disregards Moses’ law dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse a punishment, do you think, will one receive who has trampled the Son of God and profaned the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified, and offended the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “vengeance is mine, says the Lord,” “I will repay. And also, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31”It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”​

Thee is nothing said about any different means of capital punishment, which one is or is not worse than another. The comparison is "die without mercy." All four means of capital punishment in the OT are "death without mercy." vs something worse.
Instead of trying to concoct assumptions about the different means of capital punishment let us read what is written.
vs. 26 if we sin willfully... there is no more sacrifice for sin.
If there is no sacrifice for sin there is no forgiveness.
Vs. 27 judgment and a fury of fire which will devour the adversaries.
Vs. 30 "vengeance is mine saith the Lord. I will repay. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God"
Please tell me where you find UR in this passage?