THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS (Luke 16) IS NOT A PARABLE

[Saint Steven]

That is precisely why there are such divisions in Christianity. Each and every would-be Christian leader, whether Pope or pastor or priest or prophet (the four P's of phailure) claim divine inspiration. Are they all correct? If not, how do you know which to believe?

Why do we assume they all have to agree to be inspired?

 

[Der Alte]

***

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
Clearly everything has a positive purpose to it: "to humble them" (Eccl.1:13).
BTW, is "hell" (Hades/Sheol, Tartarus, Gehenna, the lake of fire, the abyss, etc) not also "under the heavens". Evidently those there are, for their own good, being humbled too. See Eccl.1:13 above.
May the Lord keep, bless & heal you***

Nonsense! What did the Israelites of Solomon's day understand when they heard/read "all that is done under the heavens?" Did they think that included the dead in the grave/sheol?
Did Solomon have some esoteric knowledge of the fate of the dead? Let us read a bit farther in Eccles.

Ecclesiastes 3:14
14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: [עולם /olam] nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.​

Here the writer of Eccles. has unknowingly defined "olam" for us. Nothing can be added to or taken away from what God does "olam." correctly translated for ever by definition here and in the JPS. Any other opinion you can provide means absolutely nothing.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-21
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?​

Here the writer of Eccles., who supposedly was telling us about the fate of the dead in vs. 1:13, does not know what happens to the spirit of a man when he dies.

Ecclesiastes 9:3
3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever [olam] in any thing that is done under the sun.​

The dead have no more reward. And they do not have "any more a portion for ever [see vs. 3;14 above] in any thing that is done under the sun."

Ecclesiastes 9:10
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.​

Here the writer says there is no "work, device, knowledge nor wisdom in the grave." Ain't nothin' happenin' down there.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Why do we assume they all have to agree to be inspired?

Of course we do not at all. In fact, that is precisely why there are divisions. Some people are of Wesley, some of Luther, some of the Pope(s), some of the Patriarch(s), etc.

I Corinthians 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

 

[Saint Steven]

Of course we do not at all. In fact, that is precisely why there are divisions. Some people are of Wesley, some of Luther, some of the Pope(s), some of the Patriarch(s), etc.

I don't see those things so much as divisions, but rather different facets of the same gem. Different denominations specialize in, and focus on, different things. Would we claim that doctors who specialize are dividing the field of medicine? Of course not.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I don't see those things so much as divisions, but rather different facets of the same gem. Different denominations specialize in, and focus on, different things. Would we claim that doctors who specialize are dividing the field of medicine? Of course not.

Using your analogy then we would have Chinese traditional doctors merely using alternative means to heal a broken arm using the ground organ of a monkey for the patient to ingest, versus a Western doctor setting the arm in plaster. These are not facets of the same reality. One results in healing and the other does not.

When one denomination firmly believes that salvation is by God's grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ and another denomination insists that God's love triumphs over all evil and that all mankind will be saved, we have a significant difference. One approach will result in salvation and the other not.

 

[Butch5]

Hebrews 12:1
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Neither of these say dead people are alive. This is the point I keep trying to get across. You guys presuppose that man can live apart from the body. However, you haven't established that from Scripture.

If I presuppose that man can live apart from the body, I'm going to think Lazarus and the Rich Man is about people who have died in an afterlife. If I don't presuppose that I'm not going to think it's about dead people in an afterlife. You guys keep posting passages that you "think" prove your point, but it's only because you're presupposing that man can live apart from the body.

Please establish from Scripture that man can live apart from the body. Show me where the Bible teaches that man is a spirit being that can leave the flesh and continue to live on. Unless you can establish that you have absolutely no evidence. There is no physical evidence. The "only" evidence that you have is "your" interpretation of some passages in Scripture. If your interpretation is wrong, then you have absolutely nothing to prove that man can live apart from the body.

 

[Saint Steven]

When one denomination firmly believes that salvation is by God's grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ and another denomination insists that God's love triumphs over all evil and that all mankind will be saved, we have a significant difference. One approach will result in salvation and the other not.

Nonsense.
The "us versus them" mentality is the real culprit here.

 

[Saint Steven]

Neither of these say dead people are alive. This is the point I keep trying to get across. You guys presuppose that man can live apart from the body. However, you haven't established that from Scripture.

Here you go. We have already shown you this.

Luke 20:38
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

 

[Saint Steven]

Please establish from Scripture that man can live apart from the body. Show me where the Bible teaches that man is a spirit being that can leave the flesh and continue to live on.

Jesus led the way in that regard. And we will follow.

1 Corinthians 15:22-23
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

 

[Butch5]

It's plain that Jesus' mission is inter alia to proclaim freedom to the prisoners (plus restore sight to the blind) whether they be physically dead in some physical place called hades, or the walking dead, dead in their sins and trespasses, dead to God, perishables in their world of shades of doubt and half-truths. Spirits imprisoned in the flesh, seeking their way home, even as a flame licks heavenward.

Thirsty, Richie? Got the ol' 'gulf' problem? Being tormented in the flesh, under the law, unable to 'give it up' to God cause he's hardened his heart by years of careless living to reject the way the truth and life.

Still, there's good news for Richie and all those who sail upon him! Nary a dimly burning wick goeth unquenched. At latest he'll get busted out of the dungeon when Jesus produces the keys to (yes!) death and hades for the GWTJ. And then? Behold - all things made anew! Into the lake of fire for a good cleansing, sin-destroying and bad habit overcoming session in Grace abundant, and then it's c'mon Richie, the party's in here, straight through the open gates and along the tree-lined main street [or river, depending] - scrub them robes in Lamb's blood and join us for beaucoup eau de vie. You can do it!

Only Jesus leaves the Pharisees to stew in their own infernal imaginings after he flips them again on that one.

How does one proclaim freedom to those who are physically dead?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Jesus led the way in that regard. And we will follow.

1 Corinthians 15:22-23
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Amen! There is yet to be the physical resurrection. In the meantime all who die in Christ are spiritually alive with Him in heaven. The are absent from the body, but present with the Lord.

 

[Butch5]

Here you go. We have already shown you this.

Luke 20:38
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

There's nothing in this passage that says man can live apart from the body. So again we're back to "your" interpretation. But let's look at it. Firstly, with this interpretation you've pitted yourself against other passages of Scripture. If your interpretation is correct then it would mean that all of the passages that say Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, died or are dead are wrong. We have to wonder which is wrong, your interpretation or the other passages.

Let's look at the actual passage.

34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
(Lk. 20:34-38 KJV)

In verse 37 Jesus said, "Now that the dead are raised". That shows us that the passage and what He's going to say refer to the Resurrection, not a state between death and that Resurrection. Thus, your interpretation is out of context. In this passage Jesus speaks of the living and the dead. These are classes of people. It doesn't necessitate that they are actually alive at that moment. As we saw, the statement refers to the Resurrection. Using the living and the dead as classes of people isn't uncommon in Scripture. Jesus does it elsewhere.

59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God. (Lk. 9:59-60 KJV)

Here we have Jesus calling a class of people, "the dead" who are very much alive. So, just being classified as the living or the dead doesn't necessitate that the ones in that group are actually alive or dead.

In verse 38 Luke records a statement that shows that from God's perspective all live. Luke isn't saying that all are alive but that from God's perspective all live. We also know that God calls things that don't exist as though they did.

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
17 (as it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations1 ") in the presence of Him whom he believed-- God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; (Rom. 4:16-17 NKJ)

Ok, so from this we can see that God calls things that do not exist as though they do. Now, in this passage Paul explaining is how God is fulfilling the promise to Abraham. In Luke Jesus is speaking of the promise to Abraham, the Resurrection. In both cases God calls things that don't exist as though they did.

Given all of this I have to conclude that your interpretation of the passage is incorrect.

 

[Butch5]

Jesus led the way in that regard. And we will follow.

1 Corinthians 15:22-23
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

There's nothing here that teaches that a man can live apart from the body. This passage is simply referring to the Resurrection.

 

[Saint Steven]

There's nothing in this passage that says man can live apart from the body. So again we're back to "your" interpretation. But let's look at it. Firstly, with this interpretation you've pitted yourself against other passages of Scripture. If your interpretation is correct then it would mean that all of the passages that say Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, died or are dead are wrong. We have to wonder which is wrong, your interpretation or the other passages.

Jesus said Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were alive. That was the point he was making.

 

[Saint Steven]

There's nothing here that teaches that a man can live apart from the body. This passage is simply referring to the Resurrection.

So you don't believe that we part with our physical body at death?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Jesus led the way in that regard. And we will follow.

1 Corinthians 15:22-23
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

 

[ClementofA]

Nonsense! What did the Israelites of Solomon's day understand when they heard/read "all that is done under the heavens?" Did they think that included the dead in the grave/sheol?

Did Solomon have some esoteric knowledge of the fate of the dead?

If it's nonsense you should have followed that up by providing evidence supporting your claim instead of asking me questions.

The phrase "under the heavens" means "under the heavens". This is not rocket science.

Is Gehenna "under the heavens"? Or in/above the heavens?

Is Hades/Sheol (the realm of departed human spirits) "under the heavens"? Or in/above the heavens?

Is the lake of fire "under the heavens"? Or in/above the heavens?

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Clearly everything has a positive purpose to it: "to humble them" (Eccl.1:13). Whether it was flooding the earth that killed those outside the ark or whatever "evil" occurs to men, God has given it to "humble them". Including those who will go to Gehenna (Mk.9:43-49), the Valley of Hinnom, which is on earth & "under the heavens".

We know "hell" (Hades/Sheol, Tartarus, Gehenna, the lake of fire, the abyss, etc) is also "under the heavens". Evidently the humans there, if any, are for their own good, being humbled too. See Eccl.1:13 above.

Let us read a bit farther in Eccles.

Ecclesiastes 3:14
14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: [עולם /olam] nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
​

Here the writer of Eccles. has unknowingly defined "olam" for us. Nothing can be added to or taken away from what God does "olam." correctly translated for ever by definition here and in the JPS. Any other opinion you can provide means absolutely nothing.

Why, do you think the JPS is like an infallible pope or the inspired Word of God? Compare Lam.3:31-33 where JPS supports universalism. Compare a literal translation:

Eccl.3:14 I know that all the One, Elohim, is doing, It shall be for the eon; Onto it there can be nothing to add, And from it there can be nothing to subtract; The One, Elohim, He does it that they may fear before Him. (CLV)

Ecclesiastes 3:19-21
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
​

Here the writer of Eccles., who supposedly was telling us about the fate of the dead in vs. 1:13, does not know what happens to the spirit of a man when he dies.

What gives you that notion? He agrees with God who likewise says "for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." (Gen.3:19).

Ecclesiastes 12:7
before the dust returns to the ground from which it came, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

And where is God? Everywhere, including Hades/Sheol (Ps.139:8). Where did Jesus say these human spirits (Eccl.12:7) go at death? Hades/Abraham's bosom: see Lk.16:19-31. Where is Hades? Under the heavens, where God does "humble" men (Eccl.1:13).

Ecclesiastes 9:3
3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever [olam] in any thing that is done under the sun.
​

The dead have no more reward. And they do not have "any more a portion for ever [see vs. 3;14 above] in any thing that is done under the sun."

True as far as their bodies in the "grave" (v.10) are concerned. Until the "age" arrives when they will be raised from the dead:

Their love also, their hatred also, their envy also, hath already perished, and they have no more a portion TO THE AGE in all that hath been done under the sun. (Eccl.9:6, Young's Literal Translation).

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the ***GRAVE*** where you are going. (9:10)

Ecclesiastes 9:10
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Here the writer says there is no "work, device, knowledge nor wisdom in the grave." Ain't nothin' happenin' down there.

Right. Dead corpses in graves don't think or go to work.

 

[Butch5]

Jesus said Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were alive. That was the point he was making.

What you're claiming has you pitted against other Scripture as I've pointed out. Do you believe the passages that say Abraham, Isaac, And Jacob are dead are wrong?

Jesus wasn't saying they are alive. His point was to prove the Resurrection. His statement about those three men referred to the Resurrection, not a state between this life and the Resurrection. As I pointed out Jesus used the term "the dead" of people who were very much alive. Paul does too. And, as Paul said God calls those things that are not as though they were.

 

[Butch5]

So you don't believe that we part with our physical body at death?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Jesus led the way in that regard. And we will follow.

1 Corinthians 15:22-23
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

We are our physical body. Again, we're back to the same point. You assuming that man can live apart from the body. You asked if I believe if "we" depart from "our" body. If "we" can depart from our body then what is really us is not our body. So, what is it? What are we?

 

[Saint Steven]

What you're claiming has you pitted against other Scripture as I've pointed out. Do you believe the passages that say Abraham, Isaac, And Jacob are dead are wrong?

Jesus wasn't saying they are alive. His point was to prove the Resurrection. His statement about those three men referred to the Resurrection, not a state between this life and the Resurrection. As I pointed out Jesus used the term "the dead" of people who were very much alive. Paul does too. And, as Paul said God calls those things that are not as though they were.

I am agreeing with Jesus about the immortality of the soul. Remember what I said about physical and spiritual life and death? Abraham, Isaac, And Jacob are dead physically but alive spiritually. That is why Jesus said they are alive.

Luke 20:38
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

 

[Saint Steven]

We are our physical body. Again, we're back to the same point. You assuming that man can live apart from the body. You asked if I believe if "we" depart from "our" body. If "we" can depart from our body then what is really us is not our body. So, what is it? What are we?

We are our soul. (conscious mind) Like the information on a computer hard drive. The physical hard drive is our brain. I asked earlier, if you had a brain transplant, who would you be? The mind (soul) determines who we are. The soul is our individual identity. IMHO