True..DNA can trace matrilineal and patrilineal lines. Kohanim still carry a marker.
DNA can trace matrilineal and patrilineal lines. Kohanim still carry a marker.
I said, "Where in the Torah?" and you gave me several examples outside the Torah.
Gen 35:11 So He called his name Israel. 11 Also God said to him: I am God Almighty. Be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall proceed from you, and kings shall come from your body.
Gen 48
19 But his father refused and said, I know, my son, I know. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great; but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his descendants shall become a multitude of nations.
Now the New Testament quotes Ephraim's promise in speaking to gentiles several places. It also speaks in places about the great multitude which are like the sands of the seas.
Israel has one Nation, AND a multitude of nations.
The two become one.
Just as the New Testament teaches about the two becoming one.
"Where, in the Torah, is the complete destruction of Ephraim spoken of?"
This was my original question, to which you replied several verses outside of Torah.
So, in your post above, you did not answer my question, because the verses you quoted from the Torah are not talking about the destruction of Ephraim.
You don't believe in the prophets?
If Ephraim was to become a multitude of nations, what does that tell you?
Num 12:7-8 My servant Moses is not so; he is trusted in all My house; with him do I speak mouth to mouth, even manifestly, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the L-RD does he behold; wherefore then were you not afraid to speak against My servant, against Moses?'
Deu 13:1-18(13:2-19) If there arise in the midst of you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams - and he give you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spoke unto you - saying: 'Let us go after other gods, which you have not known, and let us serve them';
you shall not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or unto that dreamer of dreams; for the L-RD your G-d puts you to proof,
I choose to listen to the voice of the L-RD spoken in the Torah, first, and compare everything else to Torah. Especially regarding the prophets. If what a prophet speaks does not line up with the teachings of Moshe, then I question it.
What the Torah, and the greatest prophet Moshe, teaches me about Ephraim is as follows:
Gen 48:5 And now your two sons, who were born unto you in the land of Egypt before I came unto you into Egypt, are mine; Ephraim and Manasseh, even as Reuben and Simeon, shall be mine.
Ephraim and Manasseh, the two sons of Joseph, shall belong to Israel.
Gen 48:20-22 And he blessed them that day, saying: 'By you shall Israel bless, saying: G-d make you as Ephraim and as Manasseh.' And he set Ephraim before Manasseh.
And Israel said unto Joseph: 'Behold, I die; but God will be with you, and bring you back unto the land of your fathers.
Moreover I have given to you one portion above your brothers, which I took out of the hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow.'
If Ephraim equals destruction, why would all Israel bless their sons, saying "G-d make you as Ephraim and as Manasseh"? It would not make sense for you to say to your son, "May you be utterly destroyed" or "May you harlot after other gods".So, there is another reason Israel (even Judah) shall bless saying these words. There is a reason Joseph's bones were carried out front and a reason an Ephraimite led the whole house of Israel into the Land.
Ephraim has an inheritance in the Land.
By the way, in Genesis 48:22, the word "portion" is "Shechem" in Hebrew and Shechem was taken from the Amori, the people of Chamor. This is significant, but it is up to the reader to determine why.
Gen 37:12-17 And his brothers went to feed their father's flock in Shechem. And Israel said unto Joseph, Do not your brothers feed the flock in Shechem? come, and I will send you unto them. And he said to him, Here am I. And he said to him, Go, I pray you, see whether it be well with your brothers, and well with the flocks; and bring me word again. So he sent him out of the vale of Hebron, and he came to Shechem. And a certain man found him, and, behold, he was wandering in the field: and the man asked him, saying, What seekest you? And he said, I seek my brothers: tell me, I pray you, where they feed their flocks.
And the man said, They are departed hence; for I heard them say, Let us go to Dothan. And Joseph went after his brothers, and found them in Dothan.
Who was this man wandering in the field? I don't know, but I find it intriguing.
They were supposed to be feeding their father's flock at Shechem, but decided to go to another place of their own choosing. Joseph was the only one who was obedient to do as his father asked him. This event was the beginning of captivity.
Gen 48:14-16 And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the first-born. And he blessed Joseph, and said: 'The G-d before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the G-d who has been my shepherd all my life long unto this day, the angel who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named in them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.'
The G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the angel who has redeemed Israel from all evil, bless Ephraim and Menashe.
Gen 49:22-26 Joseph is a fruitful vine, a fruitful vine by a fountain; its branches run over the wall.
The archers have dealt bitterly with him, and shot at him, and hated him; But his bow abode firm, and the arms of his hands were made supple, by the hands of the Mighty One of Jacob, from thence, from the Shepherd, the Stone of Israel, Even by the G-d of your father, who shall help you, and by the Almighty, who shall bless you, with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that couches beneath, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb. The blessings of your father are mighty beyond the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills; they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of the prince (nazir - separate, that is, consecrated) among his brothers.
Deu 33:13-17 And of Joseph he said: Blessed of the L-RD be his land; for the precious things of heaven, for the dew, and for the deep that couches beneath, And for the precious things of the fruits of the sun, and for the precious things of the yield of the moons, And for the tops of the ancient mountains, and for the precious things of the everlasting hills, And for the precious things of the earth and the fulness thereof, and the good will of Him that dwelt in the bush; let the blessing come upon the head of Joseph, and upon the crown of the head of him that is prince (nazir - separate, that is, consecrated) among his brethren. His firstling bullock, majesty is his; and his horns are the horns of the wild-ox; with them he shall gore the peoples all of them, even the ends of the earth; and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh.
Joseph, thus Ephraim and Menashe, were among those standing upon Mount Gerizim to proclaim the blessing upon entrance to the Land.
This is some of what the Torah teaches me about Ephraim.
You sound like that you don't believe the prophets are the word of God, but that's another story.
I suppose you don't accept any of the book of Hosea, and parts of Isaiah speaking about gentiles.
Do you believe in Jesus, do you believe that Jesus was a kinsmen redeemer of many brides?
Why are gentile Christians called brides, why so much talk of a wedding?
Eddie Chumney wrote this--
THE ROLE OF THE KINSMAN REDEEMER
TO SAVE GOD'S PEOPLE
Because God had cut off his covenant relationship with the
Northern Kingdom of Israel, God made a provision in the Torah that a
near kinsman could redeem his brothers if their covenant was cut off
from God. In Leviticus 25:25 it is written:
"If thy brother be waxen poor, and hath sold away some of his
possession, and if any of his kin come to redeem it, then shall
he redeem that which his brother sold "
Since the Northern Kingdom has sold their covenant inheritance
with God by committing spiritual whoredom and forsaking the Torah and
worshiping other gods, God made provision in the Torah that one of
his brothers (a member of the Southern Kingdom, the house of Judah,
the Jewish people) could redeem him. Therefore, Jesus was born a Jew
from the seed of David to redeem the Northern Kingdom who was cut off
from their covenant relationship with God. In doing so, Jesus brought a
new (or renewed) covenant which was also Torah based. In Jeremiah
31:33 it is written:
"But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house
of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my TORAH
in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be
their God, and they shall be my people "
Jesus came to the earth so that God could fulfill His covenant
with Abraham. This would be accomplished by the Messiah fulfilling
the role of the kinsman redeemer and saving His people who lost their
covenant relationship with God. {end quote of eddie}
I gave you proof from the Torah, that Ephraim would be a multitude of nations, and that's exactly what Ephraim has become.
I give you the entire book of Hosea about a very detailed explanation of what God would do to the kingdom of Ephraim, you may not accept it as truth, nevertheless, it happened and the prophecy is fulfilled in Jesus.
Judah has one fellow heir and his name is Ephraim. Now Paul quotes Ephraim's famous miraculous prophecy that his seed would be sown into the earth and mixed among all the gentile nations.
Romans, 1 Peter, Ephesians, and other places all detail Ephraim's miracle return, and it is ALWAYS explained to gentiles that they have become fellow hiers through this promise,'' Those who were once not a people{gentiles} have become the sons of the living God.
This promise is given to Ephraim, so why is Paul and Peter giving this promise to gentiles?
Didn't the kingdom of Ephraim live as gentiles?
Didn't the Northern kingdom called Ephraim say that the Torah is a strange thing?
This also fulfills Abraham's promise that all nations would be blessed through Abraham, and this means to become his seed.
Jacob ADOPTS TWO GENTILE SONS of Joseph and treats them the same as he treated his own children.
There are many holy cities but God only has one Holy city, one alter, one temple.
These Northern tribes built their own Temple, they had their own King, that King invented his own Sabbaths and Holy festivals in His Holy city in Shechem.
This is what you call,'' OUTRIGHT REJECTION OF GOD.''
Is God unjust that he says,'' YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE?''
Is God unjust because he mixed them into the nations where they live as gentiles?
Is Paul and Peter wrong for explaining that gentiles have obtained the promise given to Ephraim, and these gentiles have become a chosen people?
Is the whole book of Hosea a lie?
And are the disciples who quote Ephraim's promise lying?
Are you insinuating that I am a false prophet for quoting prophecy?
Careful!
Careful about what?
My memory is severely bad, I don't know what everyone believes.
I can't remember what happened yesterday.
I am asking honest questions, and it's not in sarcasm.
If a person wants to see something in Torah as if the Book of Hosea is not considered the word of God, then I have an honest question to whether the person believes in the book of Hosea of not.
What are you going to do to me?
And why?
The tribes were united that was already fulfilled.
They were briefly united when gentiles were adopted and began to act in God's will, leaving their old life behind.[/quote ]
They were united that's the point.
p They were briefly united when gentiles were adopted and began to act in God's will, leaving their old life behind.[/quote ]
They were united that's the point.
They did not stay united and that is the reason there are so many prophecies of their unification in the last days when Christianity returns.
The other kingdom must become one with the Jews, that's the point of making one man out of the two.
If the Jews suddenly believed in Jesus tomorrow, what would make them one? They have two wholly different worship systems.
Now let's see.
#1 I am of the seed of Abraham.
#2 I am of the seed of Isaac.
#3 I am inwardly a Jew.
#4 I am of Israel under the promise given to Ephraim as a redeemed gentile through marriage.
Should I rather be saying that the gentile is a Jew, rather than to show the gentile being called of Ephraim?
Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, now is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh.; But he is a Jew who IS ONE INWARDLY, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit and not in the letter; whose praise is not from men, but from God.
Who is the seed of Abraham?
Romans 4:9 Does this blessedness then come the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham as righteousness.............THAT HE MIGHT BECOME THE FATHER OF ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness must be imputed to them also.
FOR THE PROMISE THAT HE WOULD BE THE HEIR OF THE WORLD WAS NOT TO ABRAHEM OR HIS SEED THROUGH THE LAW, BUT THROUGH THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF FAITH.AS IS WRITTEN,{'' I WILL MAKE YOU A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS.''}
Romans 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, Nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; But, '' In Isaac your seed shall be called.''
That is, THOSE WHO ARE TH CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD; BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE ARE COUNTED AS THE SEED.
Romans 9:24 EVEN US HE CALLED not of the JEWs ONLY, BUT ALSO of the gentiles? as he says in Hosea: '' I will call them my people who were not my people{Ephraim's promise}.......THIS PROMISE OF EPHRAIM ALSO MAKES ME OF THE SEED OF EPHRAIM.
speaking TO GENTILE BELIEVERS IN Corinth taken from Ezekiel 37 speaking of Israel. Corinthians 6: 16 ''I will dwell in them and walk among them. I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
At the Pentecost, what happened concerning Gentiles?
Acts21.
Isaiah 44:3I will pour out my spirit on your descendants, And my blessing on your offspring: They will spring up among the grass Like willows by the water courses. '' One will say, 'I am the Lord's; another will call himself by the name of Jacob. Another will write with his hand, '' The Lord's AND NAME HIMSELF BY THE NAME OF ISRAEL!
Isaiah 41-Covenant to gentiles -acts 13:47
I will keep you and give you as a covenant to the people, as a light to the gentiles.
Acts 15:14 God at first visited the gentiles to take out of them A PEOPLE FOR HIS NAME.
It shows Jesus being seen as a light to gentiles in the place where it was said to the ten tribes,'' You who were not my people, have become my people.''
Isaiah 8-
5 The LORD spake also unto me again, saying,
6 Forasmuch as this people refuseth the waters of Shiloah that go softly, and rejoice in Rezin and Remaliah's son;
7 Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks:
Isaiah chapter 9 King James Version
1 Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations.
2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.
3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the joy: they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, and as men rejoice when they divide the spoil.
The unification of all Israel
He will set up a banner for the nations,
And will assemble the outcasts of Israel,
And gather together the dispersed of Judah
From the four corners of the earth.
13 Also the envy of Ephraim shall depart,
And the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off;
Ephraim shall not envy Judah,
And Judah shall not harass Ephraim.
14 But they shall fly down upon the shoulder of the Philistines toward the west;
Together they shall plunder the people of the East;
Isaiah 11, I believe speaking of the spirit of Elijah that prepares a highway for those returning .
There will be a highway for the remnant of His people
Who will be left from Assyria,
As it was for Israel
In the day that he came up from the land of Egypt.
Proclamation Against Syria and Israel-- Isaiah 17
Why are the two related?
17 The burden against Damascus.
Behold, Damascus will cease from being a city,
And it will be a ruinous heap.
2 The cities of Aroer are forsaken;[a]
They will be for flocks
Which lie down, and no one will make them afraid.
3 The fortress also will cease from Ephraim,
The kingdom from Damascus,
And the remnant of Syria;
They will be as the glory of the children of Israel,
Says the Lord of hosts.
4 In that day it shall come to pass
That the glory of Jacob will wane,
And the fatness of his flesh grow lean.
5 It shall be as when the harvester gathers the grain,
And reaps the heads with his arm;
It shall be as he who gathers heads of grain
In the Valley of Rephaim.
6 Yet gleaning grapes will be left in it,
Like the shaking of an olive tree,
Two or three olives at the top of the uppermost bough,
Four or five in its most fruitful branches,
Says the Lord God of Israel.
7 In that day a man will look to his Maker,
And his eyes will have respect for the Holy One of Israel.
8 He will not look to the altars,
The work of his hands;
He will not respect what his fingers have made,
Nor the wooden images[b] nor the incense altars.
9 In that day his strong cities will be as a forsaken bough[c]
And an uppermost branch,[d]
Which they left because of the children of Israel;
And there will be desolation.
10 Because you have forgotten the God of your salvation,
And have not been mindful of the Rock of your stronghold,
Therefore you will plant pleasant plants
And set out foreign seedlings;
11 In the day you will make your plant to grow,
And in the morning you will make your seed to flourish;
But the harvest will be a heap of ruins
In the day of grief and desperate sorrow.
12 Woe to the multitude of many people
Who make a noise like the roar of the seas,
And to the rushing of nations
That make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters!
13 The nations will rush like the rushing of many waters;
But God will rebuke them and they will flee far away,
And be chased like the chaff of the mountains before the wind,
Like a rolling thing before the whirlwind.
14 Then behold, at eventide, trouble!
And before the morning, he is no more.
This is the portion of those who plunder us,
And the lot of those who rob us.
Isaiah 27:6 Those who come He shall cause to take root in Jacob;
Israel shall blossom and bud,
And fill the face of the world with fruit.
Isaiah 28-Woe to Ephraim and Jerusalem.--18 Your covenant with death will be annulled,
And your agreement with Sheol will not stand;
When the overflowing scourge passes through,
Then you will be trampled down by it.
Who is Israel, who is the seed of Abraham, and Isaac?
Who is a Jew?
3 The fortress also will cease from Ephraim,
The kingdom from Damascus,
And the remnant of Syria;
They will be as the glory of the children of Israel,”
Says the Lord of hosts.
They were briefly united when gentiles were adopted and began to act in God's will, leaving their old life behind.
Those gentiles stayed loyal to their brother and were persecuted along with them.
But gentiles no longer do that, and Christianity did exactly what Jeroboam had done for the same reason.
They are called,'' The evil Kingdom.''
A people who claim to be of God but are mixed in all sorts of Paganism. They bring abomination up to the Temple and they separate themselves from God's chosen people, the Jews.
This evil kingdom has always existed before there was a Northern kingdom.
But this northern kingdom rejected all of God's ways and were sent into Assyria where they have not yet returned.
7000 are still reserved in this anti-Kingdom.
They are gentiles who call the Torah a strange thing, they say that God's laws are not for them. They admit that they have changed the ways of God and think to have authority to do so.
They make their Holy city other than Jerusalem and they have their own Holy festivals and holidays that are designed to separate.
Gentiles came together with Jews, and became one man but the multitudes of Ephraim which are as the sands of the seas are not together with the Jews.
When Judah is strengthened in Zech, Joseph is suddenly found.
Together they mount up and destroy all those against them.
There will be no more hatred or jealousy between Ephraim and Judah in those days, in the days they appoint one head over them.
That is eisegesis - as I have said before. You are making scripture to read what you want it to say.
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