The Return of the Ten Lost Tribes

[HannibalFlavius]

Is it okay if I interject? Not related to David but who knows...

Being a gentile with ancient Jewish roots I never did understand the concept of being the "lost 10 tribes". I know that it is about how the exile to Babylon somehow and supposedly not all the tribes came home to Judah/Israel after the exile. But scripture I have read doesn't really support that in my eyes. I may have to go read it again. But to me they all returned in a way. So to be "lost" is not what the Jesus was talking about when he said he came to seek the lost sheep of Israel. I have alwasy thought it was referring to those who were not accepting who the Messiah really is or refused Christ. I thought it was the same thing for both type of children that the term lost meant those who are not saved/accepted salvation.

And the idea of them returning was prophetic for the end times. After the appointed time Jewish people from all over the world would return to Israel such as in 1947/48 witrh the re-creation of the state.

I do not like thinking that gentiles are Ephraim becuase that is where this crap of British Israelism comes in and that racist tone.

Just my two cents. Hope I didn't cross any boundaries.

If I am wrong could someone teach me more, even private messages if you do not want to say it out loud for fear of hwo it could go.

Thanks.

British Israelism has nothing to do with the belief of symbolically being Ephraim.

British Israelism is about blood and but the idea of gentiles being grafted through Ephraim is about a spiritual graft.

Ephraim left Judah very many years before that Israel was wiped out and or carried off into the nations.

200 years after there was no more nation of Israel, Zechariah talks about a coming future when God would once again break the brotherhood between Israel and Judah.

If Jesus did not come and make a brotherhood of Judah and a New Ephraim, and then later break up that brotherhood, then there still remains a day when that brotherhood will be broken...

Zechariah 11: 13 '' Throw it to the potter- that pricely price they set on me. So I took 30 pieces of silver and through them into the house of the Lord for the potter.

Then I cut in two my other staff, bonds, that I might break the brotherhood between Israel and Judah.


However one looks at this, The brotherhood had to be broken.

I believe that that brotherhood was broken when Christian gentiles left Jews about 100 years after Jesus died, but even if that view is wrong, it still means that the brotherhood has to be broken.

Ephraim as a whole went into the nations where they remained with a promise of return and the promise of that return says,'' Not my people become my people.''

I say that Paul explains this promise of return in Romans 9 in connection with Gentiles being grafted and then being called,'' Sons of the living God.'' About Ephraim's return.

And then this new brotherhood was broken as Zech states.

But even if we say that Paul didn't teach this, it still means a coming breaking of the brotherhood of Judah and Israel when we look for the return of Joseph becoming one with Judah.

 

[Gozreht]

Thank you. I will study more of it.

Maybe I should have said that Britih Israelism claims they are the lost tribes and that all of "europeans" are the real Israelites. I thought they were meaning the same thing. Thank you for your description for me.

 

[sevengreenbeans]

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea:
“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”

26 and,
“In the very place where it was said to them,
‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’”

Where is this place?

 

[sevengreenbeans]

Isaiah 11:13

Ephraim's jealousy will vanish, and Judah's enemies will be cut off; Ephraim will not be jealous of Judah, nor Judah hostile toward Ephraim.


He will raise a banner for the nations
and gather the exiles of Israel;
he will assemble the scattered people of Judah
from the four quarters of the earth.
13 Ephraim’s jealousy will vanish,
and Judah’s enemies[d] will be destroyed;
Ephraim will not be jealous of Judah,
nor Judah hostile toward Ephraim.
14 They will swoop down on the slopes of Philistia to the west;
together they will plunder the people to the east.
They will subdue Edom and Moab,
and the Ammonites will be subject to them.
15 The Lord will dry up
the gulf of the Egyptian sea;
with a scorching wind he will sweep his hand
over the Euphrates River.
He will break it up into seven streams
so that anyone can cross over in sandals.
16 There will be a highway for the remnant of his people
that is left from Assyria,
as there was for Israel
when they came up from Egypt.

This verse describes "remnant of His people left from Assyria".
Physical descendants.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Where is this place?

Its a place in Northern Israel, a valley in Ephraim. It means,'' God sows, or God scatters''

Hosea 2:22 The Earth shall answer with Grain, with new wine, And with Oil: They shall answer Jezreel.

Then I will sow her for Myself in the Earth, and I will have mercy on her who had not obtained mercy;{gentiles}

Then I will say to those who were not my people{gentiles}, ''You are my people!' And they shall say,' You are my God.''


Hosea's symbolic gentile son is given the name ,'' Jezreel.''

And so the entire reference appears that Jezreel is the place in Ephraim where gentiles would be sown, Just as God says that he will sow her in the earth Himself. That the whole world will answer Jezreel.

 

[anisavta]

Just drove thru the Jezreel Valley 3 weeks ago. Who's suppose to be there? Gentiles?

 

[HannibalFlavius]

This verse describes "remnant of His people left from Assyria".
Physical descendants.

You mean remnants of people by blood that have been lost for 2700 years not knowing who they are?

Is that what you mean?

They had already thrown off the law, they changed their Holy city, Jerboam changed all its feasts, its priests, and everything that made them an Israeli. That started almost 3000 years ago.

As far as I know, even Queen Jezebel was a gentile, but they sure didn't keep the laws concerning intermarriage and Judah got in trouble itself for that reason.

But for some 700 years before they were wiped out as a nation, they became non observing Israelites. Their worship of other Gods was so extreme that it almost brought down Judah.

You take a Jew and he marries a Gentile and has 3 sons, and his sons marry a gentile and has 3 sons and of course a Jew would say that these children are no longer Jewish.

These Israelites who threw off the Torah and ways of God for 700 years, and then were taken into Assyria and they had already lost their identity before they were carried off and it says that they begat Pagan children, But into Assyria they went and became lost amongst the gentiles.

So for 2700 years of being lost and having Gentile children, you give them a pass?

The finding of these peoples is numbered so great that it could not be counted as the sands of the seas.

If you say that these Gentiles who come from a long line of Gentiles are accepted because they have just a million of a percentage of an Israeli, then what difference is this, than what I am saying?

If you would count them by blood{like British Israelism} and I would count them by spirit, They are still gentiles being grafted back into Ephraim just as I suppose.

 

[Avodat]

Its a place in Northern Israel, a valley in Ephraim. It means,'' God sows, or God scatters''

Hosea 2:22 The Earth shall answer with Grain, with new wine, And with Oil: They shall answer Jezreel.

Then I will sow her for Myself in the Earth, and I will have mercy on her who had not obtained mercy;{gentiles}

Then I will say to those who were not my people{gentiles}, ''You are my people!' And they shall say,' You are my God.''


Hosea's symbolic gentile son is given the name ,'' Jezreel.''

And so the entire reference appears that Jezreel is the place in Ephraim where gentiles would be sown, Just as God says that he will sow her in the earth Himself. That the whole world will answer Jezreel.

Let me quote the Jewish Study Bible comments on these verses (21-25): These verses are well known from Jewish liturgy. "They are usually translated more literally: "And I will betroth you (ie Israel) to me for ever. I will betroth you to me in righteousness and in justice, in kindness and in mercy. I will betroth you to me in faithfulness , and you shall know the Lord". Traditional Jews say these verses when winding the straps of tefillin three times round the middle finger. These verses (23-25) emphasise that the Israelites were wrong to assume that Baal was the fertility god - the Lord controls fertility""

 

[HannibalFlavius]

In 722 B.C. The kingdom of Israel was no longer a nation, ans some of Israel was absorbed into Judah but these could not be the Nation of Ephraim that Ezekiel talks about or the nation of Ephraim that Zechariah talks about in the future.

200 years is a long time with many generations and I would suppose by that time in Zechariah's time, that Every Israeli that would have been absorbed into Judah was complete.

But yet 200 years later we have Zechariah talking about breaking the brotherhood between Judah and Ephraim yet to come.

100 years after Israel stopped being a nation, Ezekiel speaks of the last days when they are a separate nation, but that would end.

Ezekiel 37
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

This prophecy is about the last day when God gathers the lost separate nation of Israel and makes them one nation with Judah.

But before this could happen, they must have first been brought together, and then broken apart again, and then brought back together to become one nation, never to be separated again.

So we at least know that as of right now, Ephraim and Judah are separate and their gathering to Judah is always in association with the last days whether we look at Ezekiel, Isaiah, Zechariah or Hosea.

It is always that the two become one and appoint one king to be over both of them.

Has this ever happened?

I know it will happen in the future, but did it happen when the king came?

 

[Avodat]

In 722 B.C. The kingdom of Israel was no longer a nation, ans some of Israel was absorbed into Judah but these could not be the Nation of Ephraim that Ezekiel talks about or the nation of Ephraim that Zechariah talks about in the future.

200 years is a long time with many generations and I would suppose by that time in Zechariah's time, that Every Israeli that would have been absorbed into Judah was complete.

But yet 200 years later we have Zechariah talking about breaking the brotherhood between Judah and Ephraim yet to come.

100 years after Israel stopped being a nation, Ezekiel speaks of the last days when they are a separate nation, but that would end.

Ezekiel 37
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

This prophecy is about the last day when God gathers the lost separate nation of Israel and makes them one nation with Judah.

But before this could happen, they must have first been brought together, and then broken apart again, and then brought back together to become one nation, never to be separated again.

So we at least know that as of right now, Ephraim and Judah are separate and their gathering to Judah is always in association with the last days whether we look at Ezekiel, Isaiah, Zechariah or Hosea.

It is always that the two become one and appoint one king to be over both of them.

Has this ever happened?

I know it will happen in the future, but did it happen when the king came?

So Judaism has been wrong all these years and you are the very first person to ever notice it? Do you not think that is rather unlikely? Look at any Jewish commentary and you will see what is said about these verses, as well as the others you quote. Read the CJB on Paul in Romans 9 to see what it means in Paul's day - if you do not wish to take the word of other people.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Let me quote the Jewish Study Bible comments on these verses (21-25): These verses are well known from Jewish liturgy. "They are usually translated more literally: "And I will betroth you (ie Israel) to me for ever. I will betroth you to me in righteousness and in justice, in kindness and in mercy. I will betroth you to me in faithfulness , and you shall know the Lord". Traditional Jews say these verses when winding the straps of tefillin three times round the middle finger. These verses (23-25) emphasise that the Israelites were wrong to assume that Baal was the fertility god - the Lord controls fertility""

It is a wedding and that would also be my point.


That One day the Messiah would go to Galilee/Jezreel tribes to a people who were not his people and betroth them to himself. A People who sit in darkness.

Here is where it happens-----Matthew 4:12 {Where it was said to them}
Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;
13 And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zebulon and Nephthalim:
14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Naphtali, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;
16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

John's Testimony of the bride.
28You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. 29He that has the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. 30He must increase, but I must decrease.

Elijah was not sent to the Jews, and John the Baptist was not sent to the Jews.

Elijah prepared the wedding that was to take place between A Jew and a gentile living in the land of Naphtali and Zebulun.

John the Baptist was the friend of the bridegroom because he prepared those of that Region{Jezreel} for the coming of their bridegroom.

There is a need for a wedding because they are gentiles.

If all Jews were like John in being a man who is the brethren of the bridegroom, they would all go out and seek more brides for the bridegroom.

Mark 2
18And the disciples of John and of the Pharisees used to fast: and they come and say to him, Why do the disciples of John and of the Pharisees fast, but your disciples fast not? 19And Jesus said to them, Can the children of the bridal chamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them? as long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast. 20But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.


It is the gentiles who need to be redeemed, to take on a Jewish husband to become one body with a Jew.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

So Judaism has been wrong all these years and you are the very first person to ever notice it? Do you not think that is rather unlikely? Look at any Jewish commentary and you will see what is said about these verses, as well as the others you quote. Read the CJB on Paul in Romans 9 to see what it means in Paul's day - if you do not wish to take the word of other people.

I would certainly be happy to discuss anything you think I'm wrong about.

 

[wmc1982]

They had bad teaching, that's the answer.

 

[Avodat]

I would certainly be happy to discuss anything you think I'm wrong about.

Read the books...

 

[DennisTate]

It is a wedding and that would also be my point.


That One day the Messiah would go to Galilee/Jezreel tribes to a people who were not his people and betroth them to himself. A People who sit in darkness.

Here is where it happens-----Matthew 4:12 {Where it was said to them}
Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;
13 And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zebulon and Nephthalim:
14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Naphtali, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;
16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

John's Testimony of the bride.
28You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. 29He that has the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. 30He must increase, but I must decrease.

Elijah was not sent to the Jews, and John the Baptist was not sent to the Jews.

Elijah prepared the wedding that was to take place between A Jew and a gentile living in the land of Naphtali and Zebulun.

John the Baptist was the friend of the bridegroom because he prepared those of that Region{Jezreel} for the coming of their bridegroom.

There is a need for a wedding because they are gentiles.

If all Jews were like John in being a man who is the brethren of the bridegroom, they would all go out and seek more brides for the bridegroom.

Mark 2
18And the disciples of John and of the Pharisees used to fast: and they come and say to him, Why do the disciples of John and of the Pharisees fast, but your disciples fast not? 19And Jesus said to them, Can the children of the bridal chamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them? as long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast. 20But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.


It is the gentiles who need to be redeemed, to take on a Jewish husband to become one body with a Jew.

HannibalFlavius.......am I incorrect in remembering that the prophet Elijah was from the northern kingdom of Israel.........not from the southern kingdom of Judah.......and may in fact have been from the tribe of Manasseh....the oldest son of Joseph???????!!!!!

Rabbi Pinchas Winston and Orthodox Jewish scholar and historian Yair Davidiy have certainly written a great deal about the possible implications of this in reference to the fulfillment of Moshiach ben Ephrayim/Yosef??!!

Personally........I have my suspicions that there is relevance of this even to the role of the final Elijah as elaborated on in the Catholic Bible........


Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, Ecclesiasticus Chapter 48
[1] And Elias the prophet stood up, as a fire, and his word burnt like a torch...........Who anointedst kings to penance, and madest prophets successors after thee. [9] Who wast taken up in a whirlwind of fire, in a chariot of fiery horses. [10] Who art registered in the judgments of times to appease the wrath of the Lord, to reconcile the heart of the father to the son, and to restore the tribes of Jacob."

 

[DennisTate]

Those of us who have been around a few years (well, many actually), will recall lots of prophecies along these lines, using similar scriptures as we see on these threads, often making the same exegetical errors. Every 5 or 8 years it is rolled out when someone gets the idea that they might be a part of the one of these 'lost' tribes and stories abound on the internet of tenuous connections, which usually turn out to be unproven family myths. As the spread of computers grows, more people are taken in to the stories. It usually fades away after a few years and then re-appears a handful of years later. Sorry, but it really is old hat.

I've read several articles over the past five or ten years regarding the theory that Sephardic Jews were persecuted in Spain and converted to Catholcism. Later they were persecuted in spite of their conversion so they fled to France. The Inquisition followed them to France.....and they fled to my province Nova SCotia and New Brunswick............The way that these articles are worded was truly impressive to me.......the theory sounded logical.......I personally am in no position whatsoever to rule out this idea!!!!!

French Canadians are Jewlicious? | Jewlicious THE Jewish Blog

Cajun or Jewish?
Sandra DeVlin
July 29, 2004 Thursday Final Edition

Jackie Bourque is in the eye of a whirlwind of mixed emotions since discovering she and thousands of others in Atlantic Canada may have been misled over many centuries about their Acadian heritage.

“I had been led to believe I was a Cajun girl and that we had to maintain our French … and not mix with the English,” says the Bathurst, N.B. native who is currently living in Quebec.

“It took me several weeks to actually accept that I am Jewish more than I am Acadian,” says Jackie, who believes she has stumbled upon a little-known or little-discussed fact: that many of the familiar Acadian surnames are more likely of Jewish origin than of French.

“People will not generally accept this,” she says, “because they have been brainwashed.”

EVIDENCE CLINCHED IT

Jackie was finally convinced by the evidence of “a Semitic stain,” a birthmark common among Acadians and which proponents claim identifies them with their Sephardic Crypto-Jewish ancestors who fled to southern France from Spain during the Inquisition (1478-808).

The deal for the Jews fleeing to France was “change your name and convert” to the Roman Catholic faith, says Jackie.

Our so-called French ancestors who immigrated here during the 17th and 18th centuries have surnames found among census of Jews who were condemned and sought by the Inquisition, she claims.

NOTABLE NAMES

Bourque is one, as is LeBlanc, Bourgeois, Landry, Mallet, Doucet, Vienneau, Lamarche and many more.

“When the person has the name and the ‘stain’ to boot, then how can they deny their identity?” says Jackie, who has the birthmark.

“I’ve been doing my own personal research with all these names, just among the people I meet, or neighbours and, definitely, they all have either the pinkish dots in the neck at the hairline, or some browning/blackish splat on their back.

“Others have it at the waistline. I have also found some have it on their arm at the shoulder level.

“To prove my point, when I find out their names, I immediately tell them about the Semitic stain, otherwise, they could say, ‘Ah, you’re just making this up.’ “
Jackie refers us to French Sephard-im, one online source that backs this theory, located at .geocities.com/sephardim2003/
For more information contact: Jackie Bourque,

 

[Avodat]

I've read several articles over the past five or ten years regarding the theory that Sephardic Jews were persecuted in Spain and converted to Catholcism. Later they were persecuted in spite of their conversion so they fled to France. The Inquisition followed them to France.....and they fled to my province Nova SCotia and New Brunswick............The way that these articles are worded was truly impressive to me.......the theory sounded logical.......I personally am in no position whatsoever to rule out this idea!!!!!

French Canadians are Jewlicious? | Jewlicious THE Jewish Blog

They were the Marranos Jews who found a way of continuing their Jewish ways whilst still acting as Christians. You can read about them on the internet or in books; an amazing account!

I have heard of the 10 missing tribes being from Spain, Russia, Ethiopia, England, China, India and Sth America. It goes round and round in circles over a period of time and people get excited because they have been 'found', then it all dies down again. But if it was so easy to track the tribes through the words of The Book, as HF says, do you not think someone would have got there before today, several millennia later, given all the brains that have been reading these words over that time?

 

[DennisTate]

They were the Marranos Jews who found a way of continuing their Jewish ways whilst still acting as Christians. You can read about them on the internet or in books; an amazing account!

I have heard of the 10 missing tribes being from Spain, Russia, Ethiopia, England, China, India and Sth America. It goes round and round in circles over a period of time and people get excited because they have been 'found', then it all dies down again. But if it was so easy to track the tribes through the words of The Book, as HF says, do you not think someone would have got there before today, several millennia later, given all the brains that have been reading these words over that time?

Avodat.....have you studied the theories of Mr. Tsvi Misinai?

Do you personally feel that his theories.....especially when combined with the promise of restoration for the lost tribes of Israel......will play a significant role in how the time eventually comes when apparently the Islamic nations allow Jews and Noahides to travel freely to Jerusalem to observe the Festival of Tabernacles??!!


English | המוצא - ההתחברות - The Engagement

Here is where the said series of studies get into the picture. A very large anthropological study, various genetic studies, a demographic-historical research and a historical-geographical one were published in the 21st century and are detialed in the book "Brother shall not Lift Sword Against Brother" as well as in brief in The Engagement booklet. All these studies reinforce an earlier work of David Ben-Gurion (the first prime minister of Israel) and others, in their very surprising finding:

a solid majority of the Palestinians (80%-90%) are descendants of People of Israel who remained in the country following the destruction of the Second Jewish Temple. The ancestors of most of the Palestinians were forced to convert, mainly to Islam.

When it becomes clear that the parties to the conflict are really blood-brothers, that usually are not aware of this situation, it makes self-evident that the continuation of the conflict is a hopeless stupidity and is an outrageous unjust, that the only reason for its existence is the ignorance about the real identity of the Palestinians. All the above lead to one clear conclusion:

 

[sevengreenbeans]

Isaiah 11:16
16 There will be a highway for the remnant of his people
that is left from Assyria,
as there was for Israel
when they came up from Egypt.

What I am saying is this... if you'd like to prove a "spiritual" remnant, this is a bad verse to use.

This verse speaks of those who are LEFT from Assyria. Who was physically taken into Assyria? Those who are the remnant of this captivity would be the physical descendants of these people. Just as Jacob/Israel came up from Egypt, speaking of his physical descendants, of course.

 

[DennisTate]

What I am saying is this... if you'd like to prove a "spiritual" remnant, this is a bad verse to use.

This verse speaks of those who are LEFT from Assyria. Who was physically taken into Assyria? Those who are the remnant of this captivity would be the physical descendants of these people. Just as Jacob/Israel came up from Egypt, speaking of his physical descendants, of course.

What do you personally think of this comment by Rabbi Pinchas Winston that the tribes of Yosef are indeed lost.....and have been for 2500 years?

"Shuvoo - The Path to Clarity - End-of-Days Conciousness."
MOSHIACH BEN YOSEF – A Six-Part Series by Rabbi Pinchas Winston

Another fundamental and puzzling difference between the two redeemers is that the tribe of Yosef, from which Moshiach Ben Yosef comes, is lost—and has been now for over twenty-five HUNDRED years! Amongst the ten tribes that were carried off into exile in the year 3206 (555 BCE) by the Assyrians and lost to the Jewish nation were the tribes of Menashe and Ephraim, the two tribes that came from the tribe of Yosef.

However, the tribes of Yehudah, Binyomin, and Levi, though exiled into Babylonia 132 years later by Nebuchadnetzar after the destruction of the First Temple (3333/423 BCE), never completely lost their identity. Thus, Jews today who can trace their roots back to Temple times must have, by definition, come from one of these three tribes.

Now, it is possible that Binyomin is the answer to this riddle, because we do find that Binyomin often takes the place of Yosef.