The Return of the Ten Lost Tribes

sevengreenbeans

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Its a place in Northern Israel, a valley in Ephraim. It means,'' God sows, or God scatters''

Hosea 2:22 The Earth shall answer with Grain, with new wine, And with Oil: They shall answer Jezreel.

Then I will sow her for Myself in the Earth, and I will have mercy on her who had not obtained mercy;{gentiles}

Then I will say to those who were not my people{gentiles}, ''You are my people!' And they shall say,' You are my God.''


Hosea's symbolic gentile son is given the name ,'' Jezreel.''

And so the entire reference appears that Jezreel is the place in Ephraim where gentiles would be sown, Just as God says that he will sow her in the earth Himself. That the whole world will answer Jezreel.

This was my point. Yizreel. YHWH scatters and YHWH harvests, or gathers. He knows where His people are, even if they don't know. Though it was prophecied they would forget and lose their identity, it was also prophecied they would remember.

Is Yizreel the place His people would be sown, or is it the place they will be gathered?
 
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sevengreenbeans

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In 722 B.C. The kingdom of Israel was no longer a nation, ans some of Israel was absorbed into Judah but these could not be the Nation of Ephraim that Ezekiel talks about or the nation of Ephraim that Zechariah talks about in the future.

Ezekiel 37
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

Are you aware that less than 28,000 people were taken into Assyria?

Once again, Ezekiel 37 speaks of physical descendants being taken back from among the heathen.
 
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sevengreenbeans

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I've read several articles over the past five or ten years regarding the theory that Sephardic Jews were persecuted in Spain and converted to Catholcism. Later they were persecuted in spite of their conversion so they fled to France. The Inquisition followed them to France.....and they fled to my province Nova SCotia and New Brunswick............The way that these articles are worded was truly impressive to me.......the theory sounded logical.......I personally am in no position whatsoever to rule out this idea!!!!!

French Canadians are Jewlicious? | Jewlicious THE Jewish Blog

Thank you for this post. This adds to my research of my own family line. We always found it a bit strange that my great-great-grandfather was pictured in a Canadian uniform during WWI, while his family was from South Carolina. He also spoke fluent Spanish. Hmmm.....:confused:
 
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sevengreenbeans

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What do you personally think of this comment by Rabbi Pinchas Winston that the tribes of Yosef are indeed lost.....and have been for 2500 years?

"Shuvoo - The Path to Clarity - End-of-Days Conciousness."
MOSHIACH BEN YOSEF – A Six-Part Series by Rabbi Pinchas Winston

I will have to look at the six part series to give my opinion.

Benyamin would have been next in line for firstborn rights, if Yosef was dead, but then Yosef returned and what was rightfully his was restored to him and to Ephraim.

I have always thought that when Yosef placed the cup in Benyamin's bag to show that Benyamin had something which belonged to Yosef, it was in reference to the birthright. Yosef then paid Benyamin with extra because of having to take it back from him. This is my opinion on that.
 
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HannibalFlavius

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This was my point. Yizreel. YHWH scatters and YHWH harvests, or gathers. He knows where His people are, even if they don't know. Though it was prophecied they would forget and lose their identity, it was also prophecied they would remember.

Is Yizreel the place His people would be sown, or is it the place they will be gathered?


You are correct, they were sent off, they did forget, and they did lose their identity. For many centuries they had their own Temple of Baal apart from Judah. They became everything that Judah wasn't.

Two nations living side by side having two separate religions, two separate Temples, two separate sets of Sabbaths and Holy days. Two separate Priesthoods.

Ephraim died before he ever left because he set up his own Temple to Baal and rejected his God throughout the entire 700 years of his Kingdom.

Hosea 13: When Ephraim spoke trembling. He exalted himself in Israel; But when he offended in Baal, he died.


You are correct in saying that they forgot and lost their identity and don't even know who they are themselves{I would say Gentile Christians}.

You are correct because God tells us this would happen over and over.

Hosea 9:16 Ephraim is stricken Their root is dried up; They shall bear no fruit, Yes, were they to bear children, I would kill the beloved fruit of the womb.''

My God will cast them away, Because they did not obey him; And they shall be wanderers among the nations.


They lost their identity centuries before they were sent into the nations But there is such great hope for these people who God had said,'' You are not my people.''

THEY WILL REMEMBER!
THEY WILL MAKE Themselves ready to be bound to Judah because they are for Judah and they will far out number Judah many times over.

But what sort of wife should be bound to Judah?

What sort of people are to become one with the Jews?

Malachi 2:10
10 Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?
11 Judah has been unfaithful. A detestable thing has been committed in Israel and in Jerusalem: Judah has desecrated the sanctuary the Lord loves by marrying women who worship a foreign god. 12 As for the man who does this, whoever he may be, may the Lord remove him from the tents of Jacob—even though he brings an offering to the Lord Almighty.
13 Another thing you do: You flood the Lord’s altar with tears. You weep and wail because he no longer looks with favor on your offerings or accepts them with pleasure from your hands. 14 You ask, “Why?” It is because the Lord is the witness between you and the wife of your youth. You have been unfaithful to her, though she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant.

Jesus says this to the Pharisees who loved money more than their position of being a light to the nations of gentiles.

Luke 16:
16 “The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it. 17 It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

18 “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.''

They divorced their position as a husband and their duty to be a light to the gentile nations and so Lazarus{Which means Eleazer the son of Aaron}.

Lazarus or Eleazer symbolizes the priesthood that languished, the position left neglected and the dogs{ gentiles} licked upon the sores{illness of the position}.

The son of Aaron and the priesthood was to be a light for all nations and they were to love their position as taking on wives for God and binding the gentile to the Jew, but they loved money more than they loved their wives and so they divorced their wife, because they loved another woman{money}.

Jesus comes as the Messenger of the Covenant--

I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty.
2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the Lord will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness, 4 and the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will be acceptable to the Lord, as in days gone by, as in former years.
5 “So I will come to put you on trial. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive the foreigners among you of justice, but do not fear me,” says the Lord Almighty.


Jesus comes with a covenant in his hand ready to perform a service of Marriage, to bind one people to another people, and there stands Judah.

But where is Judah's wife that Elijah and John went to prepare?

There was a need for John to come because Judah was not looking to redeem a wife, But Jesus himself came and as a Jew, he would redeem her himself, even the messenger of the covenant, He would be their light when no light was found in Judah that the gentiles flocked too.

The Messenger of the covenant comes to Judah to be king of two peoples, to bind those people together in a covenant.

But what did the Jews say?

They said,'' You are not our king, and they are not our wife.''

Although hoards of Gentiles followed him who were willing to come into the covenant, How could the covenant be made if Judah rejects the messenger of the covenant and his role to be a light to the gentile?

Nevertheless, Jesus would be a Jew who would betroth them to himself because the Pharisees loved money more than they loved their role as a husband who would be joined in a covenant with their bride.

In him they become one body in that two peoples were joined together as man and wife and Jesus stood between them and bound the whole creation as one, as Body, soul, and spirit.

Now I would tell you that I am a gentile who kept the traditions and ways of Baal for the first 35 years of my life but I REMEMBERED!

Although I made up my mind to never be associated with any Pagan God and lost my wife because of it, I Remembered and returned.

Even though I became an outcast of my own family because I remembered and turned back to God, I stand fast in my patience and loyalty to the Jews who will still not accept me.

But it doesn't matter if the Jews do not want me, because I have already been redeemed by a Jew and I have a promise of Marriage to a Jew who did accept me and a promise from a Jew to become his child in which Jesus says,'' Here am I and the children whom the Lord has given me.'' Isaiah 8:18

Isaiah 9:1 Nevertheless the gloom will not be upon her{Israel} who is distressed, as when at first he lightly esteemed The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward more heavily oppressed her{ended her kingdom}, By the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, In Galilee of the Gentiles. The people who walk in darkness have seen a great light;

Those who dwelled in the land of the shadow of death, upon them a light has shine. {Ephraim's land} YOU HAVE multiplied the nation.
 
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sevengreenbeans

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You are correct, they were sent off, they did forget, and they did lose their identity. For many centuries they had their own Temple of Baal apart from Judah. They became everything that Judah wasn't.

Two nations living side by side having two separate religions, two separate Temples, two separate sets of Sabbaths and Holy days. Two separate Priesthoods.

Ephraim died before he ever left because he set up his own Temple to Baal and rejected his God throughout the entire 700 years of his Kingdom.

Hosea 13: When Ephraim spoke trembling. He exalted himself in Israel; But when he offended in Baal, he died.

Before the Temple of Solomon's time and before the Temple of Jeroboam's time, where was the location of the Tabernacle? In whose territory? The Tabernacle is spoken of in the Torah. If the Torah contains all things from beginning to end, and there is no mention of a Temple proper, then I, personally, must conclude the Tabernacle will eventually exist again.

You are correct in saying that they forgot and lost their identity and don't even know who they are themselves{I would say Gentile Christians}.

You are correct because God tells us this would happen over and over.

I don't buy into any kind of Replacement Theology. I do not believe Gentile Christians became Ephraim. Where, in the Torah, is the complete destruction of Ephraim spoken of?


Hosea 9:16 Ephraim is stricken Their root is dried up; They shall bear no fruit, Yes, were they to bear children, I would kill the beloved fruit of the womb.''

My God will cast them away, Because they did not obey him; And they shall be wanderers among the nations.

Using your logic, Ephraim represents Gentile Christians. Apply this logic to the verses you quoted and your premise negates itself. So, according to this same logic, while reading scripture, sometimes Ephraim means true Ephraimites and sometimes Ephraim means Gentile Christians? How can you tell the difference?

They lost their identity centuries before they were sent into the nations But there is such great hope for these people who God had said,'' You are not my people.''

THEY WILL REMEMBER!
THEY WILL MAKE Themselves ready to be bound to Judah because they are for Judah and they will far out number Judah many times over.

But what sort of wife should be bound to Judah?

What sort of people are to become one with the Jews?

Malachi 2:10
10 Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?
11 Judah has been unfaithful. A detestable thing has been committed in Israel and in Jerusalem: Judah has desecrated the sanctuary the Lord loves by marrying women who worship a foreign god. 12 As for the man who does this, whoever he may be, may the Lord remove him from the tents of Jacob—even though he brings an offering to the Lord Almighty.
13 Another thing you do: You flood the Lord’s altar with tears. You weep and wail because he no longer looks with favor on your offerings or accepts them with pleasure from your hands. 14 You ask, “Why?” It is because the Lord is the witness between you and the wife of your youth. You have been unfaithful to her, though she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant.

Jesus says this to the Pharisees who loved money more than their position of being a light to the nations of gentiles.

Luke 16:
16 “The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it. 17 It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

18 “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.''

They divorced their position as a husband and their duty to be a light to the gentile nations and so Lazarus{Which means Eleazer the son of Aaron}.

Lazarus or Eleazer symbolizes the priesthood that languished, the position left neglected and the dogs{ gentiles} licked upon the sores{illness of the position}.

The son of Aaron and the priesthood was to be a light for all nations and they were to love their position as taking on wives for God and binding the gentile to the Jew, but they loved money more than they loved their wives and so they divorced their wife, because they loved another woman{money}.

I'd not speak lashon hara against Eleazar. However, in relation to the priesthood at the time of the Hasmonean dynasty and onward, as well as before this to the time of Eli (a descendant of Ithamar, not supposed to serve as high priest while descendants of Eleazar were still living) there was much corruption. Positions of authority bought, bribed, etc. Where, in the Torah, does it state the Levites were commanded to bind Gentile to Jew? Check out Malachi 2:11, which you quoted above. Another contradiction to your assertions.
 
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HannibalFlavius

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Before the Temple of Solomon's time and before the Temple of Jeroboam's time, where was the location of the Tabernacle? In whose territory? The Tabernacle is spoken of in the Torah. If the Torah contains all things from beginning to end, and there is no mention of a Temple proper, then I, personally, must conclude the Tabernacle will eventually exist again.



I don't buy into any kind of Replacement Theology. I do not believe Gentile Christians became Ephraim. Where, in the Torah, is the complete destruction of Ephraim spoken of?




Using your logic, Ephraim represents Gentile Christians. Apply this logic to the verses you quoted and your premise negates itself. So, according to this same logic, while reading scripture, sometimes Ephraim means true Ephraimites and sometimes Ephraim means Gentile Christians? How can you tell the difference?



I'd not speak lashon hara against Eleazar. However, in relation to the priesthood at the time of the Hasmonean dynasty and onward, as well as before this to the time of Eli (a descendant of Ithamar, not supposed to serve as high priest while descendants of Eleazar were still living) there was much corruption. Positions of authority bought, bribed, etc. Where, in the Torah, does it state the Levites were commanded to bind Gentile to Jew? Check out Malachi 2:11, which you quoted above. Another contradiction to your assertions.

I'm interested to know exactly what you meant when you said that you concluded that the Tabernacle will eventually exist again, could you clarify?

You say that you do not buy into my replacement theory and so I have to ask.

Who am I replacing?

Have I told any Jew that he is not God's child and I have somehow replaced him? On the contrary, I present myself as a servant even to the unbelieving Jews I know.

You said,'' Where in the Torah is the complete destruction of Ephraim spoken?''


The Destruction of Israel-- Amos 9
Are you not as children of the Ethiopians to me, O children of Israel? said the LORD. Have not I brought up Israel out of the land of Egypt? and the Philistines from Caphtor, and the Syrians from Kir? Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are on the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, said the LORD. For, see, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall on the earth.

Hosea-
And the LORD said to him, “Call his name Jezreel, for in just a little while I will punish the house of Jehu for the blood of Jezreel, and I will put an end to the kingdom of the house of Israel.

Jeremiah 7 Warning to Judah:
And I will cast you out of my sight, as I have cast out all your brethren, even the whole seed of Ephraim.

Isaiah 7
Within sixty-five years
Ephraim will be too shattered to be a people.

SevenBeans, The entire book of Hosea details the destruction of the kingdom of Ephraim.


You said'' Using your logic that Ephraim represents Gentile Christians, apply this logic to the scriptures you quoted and your premise negates itself.''

Here is the scripture.
Hosea 9:16 Ephraim is stricken Their root is dried up; They shall bear no fruit, Yes, were they to bear children, I would kill the beloved fruit of the womb.''

My God will cast them away, Because they did not obey him; And they shall be wanderers among the nations.

Hosea is showing an end of Ephraim that they would go and be wanderers among the nations.

This is Ephraim becoming gentiles but they have always represented adopted sons in the first place. They fall under the inheritance of Joseph who's children were born from a Gentile woman. Joseph's gentiles sons who were raised gentiles were adopted to be just like all the sons of Jacob.

I never said Hosea 9:16 was about Gentile Christians and how could I when it speaks of the fall of the kingdom of Ephraim?

I only say that Ephraim went into the nations and became gentiles{which they did} but that they had already refused the God of Israel and married into Gentiles before they left.

But Israel is given great hope and a promise that even though they went into the nations and became gentiles, as gentiles they would be accepted and return. But God called them,'' Not my people'' and the term itself speaks of Gentiles...

But great Hope that one day, millions upon millions of Ephraim would remember and return as gentiles. As gentiles they put away all of the ways of other Gods.

How can you tell if a Gentile is of the lost Ephraim?

Does he return and remember his God?

Does he throw off his ways of Pagan Gods?

Or will God just gather a bunch of Gentiles whether they be murderers, child molesters, adulterers who don't even believe in God?

Or would God gather the gentile who has returned to love the Torah and the ways of God and Judah?

Nobody is speaking lashon Hara against Eleazar or any single person...

I made reference to the parable of the rich man and Lazarus and pointed out what the name Lazarus means. I was speaking of Pharisees in the days of Jesus who loved money instead of teaching the people truth and being a light to the nations..............


But we are talking about a mystery that has always been hidden. And we are not talking about a Jew marrying a gentile in the flesh, I'm talking about gentiles becoming one body just as Paul taught.

That gentiles represent flesh like a body represents a house.

The Jew is to be the light of the nations which brings light into the house in a marriage of flesh and spirit.

If the Gentile is taught the ways of God by a Jew, then the spirit of that light dwells within the body.

Galations 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7Why you are no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Romans 8--
Therefore, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. …

The great Mystery of a Jewish man named Jesus and his bride.

In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— for we are members of his body. “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”c This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Paul is speaking about Christ and his church as his bride.

A man{a Jew} will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become oneflesh----This is a profound Mystery---But I am talking about Christ and the church.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Yizreel. YHWH scatters and YHWH harvests, or gathers. He knows where His people are, even if they don't know. Though it was prophecied they would forget and lose their identity, it was also prophecied they would remember.
Good point - as the Lord never loses control and he works all things out to his own ends :)
 
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DennisTate

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You are correct, they were sent off, they did forget, and they did lose their identity. For many centuries they had their own Temple of Baal apart from Judah. They became everything that Judah wasn't.

Two nations living side by side having two separate religions, two separate Temples, two separate sets of Sabbaths and Holy days. Two separate Priesthoods.

Ephraim died before he ever left because he set up his own Temple to Baal and rejected his God throughout the entire 700 years of his Kingdom.

Hosea 13: When Ephraim spoke trembling. He exalted himself in Israel; But when he offended in Baal, he died.


You are correct in saying that they forgot and lost their identity and don't even know who they are themselves{I would say Gentile Christians}.

You are correct because God tells us this would happen over and over.

Hosea 9:16 Ephraim is stricken Their root is dried up; They shall bear no fruit, Yes, were they to bear children, I would kill the beloved fruit of the womb.''

My God will cast them away, Because they did not obey him; And they shall be wanderers among the nations.


They lost their identity centuries before they were sent into the nations But there is such great hope for these people who God had said,'' You are not my people.''

.......

But it is pretty amazing that Elijah and Elisha were primarily sent to the northern Kingdom of Israel isn't it????

The fact that the G-d of Abraham would send two such astonishingly powerful prophets to the terribly apostate kingdom gives us an idea of how much of the Holy Spirit may well be poured out in our time period??????!!
 
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DennisTate

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Extremely well said sevengreenbeans....and Gxg(G2)!

I am certain that the resurgence of interest in genealogies and whether or not somebody may well be partly descended from the lost tribes of Israel is a symptom....and a part.....of this remembering already beginning!



Gxg (G²);63342882 said:
Good point - as the Lord never loses control and he works all things out to his own ends :)



Originally Posted by sevengreenbeans
Yizreel. YHWH scatters and YHWH harvests, or gathers. He knows where His people are, even if they don't know. Though it was prophecied they would forget and lose their identity, it was also prophecied they would remember.



 
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HannibalFlavius

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Extremely well said sevengreenbeans....and Gxg(G2)!

I am certain that the resurgence of interest in genealogies and whether or not somebody may well be partly descended from the lost tribes of Israel is a symptom....and a part.....of this remembering already beginning!







Originally Posted by sevengreenbeans
Yizreel. YHWH scatters and YHWH harvests, or gathers. He knows where His people are, even if they don't know. Though it was prophecied they would forget and lose their identity, it was also prophecied they would remember.



There is no genealogies of the tribes of the Northern kingdom besides what exists amongst the Jews at this time.

The Jews had to marry within their own families in order to keep their genealogy and they didn't even do it. But Nehemiah came and tried to put them back in order, to get rid of their gentile wives.

This was not done in the Northern Kingdom.

Again, They were a separate people who were marrying into Gentiles 100's of years before they ever became lost. God called them,'' Not his people'' because they were not his people.

If people were counting on having a tiny touch of blood from a people who lived 3000 years ago, Then I could also count on being one of God's people because my blood goes back to Adam.

There is absolutely no difference.

A gentile can be birthed in 9 months buy a Jewish man having a child by a Gentile mother. That child is a gentile but he has Jewish blood. So what if that child marries a gentile and has a child of his own?

His child is a gentile no less or no more than his father was.

From the moment gentile blood in introduced into a genealogy, it has been altered and how would anyone fix it?

But we aren't talking about 20 years, or 40 years.

We are talking about Genealogies that have been mixing for almost 3000 years.

Now you take a Jew and he marries a gentile, his child marries a gentile, and his child and so on. You just do this for ten generations or may be for 400 years and what do you have?

Well, Let me tell you what you people might say.

'' Oh, Here is a gentile that found out that 400 years ago, he had a Jew in his bloodline. WE HAVE FOUND A JEW''

That's what I'm assuming that you guys would say of a Gentile who found out that 400 years before had a Jewish grandfather.

I understand that all of you would of course agree that this gentile is a Jew even though no Jewish blood had been introduced in 400 years.

But we aren't talking about 100's of years, we are talking about 1000's of years.

Or should we talk about a man who found out that his great grandfather was a Jew, even though his grandfather, father and mother are gentiles and raised him as a gentile.

I'm sure that all Jews should consider this man a Jew even though he has gentile blood and even though he doesn't even believe in God.

HE IS STILL A JEW ISN'T HE?

Or the Jew who married into gentiles 2500 years ago and kept marrying gentiles and teaching each generation the religion of a Pagan God.

HIS FAMILY TODAY ARE STILL JEWS ARENT THEY?

Now don't try to say that he is not a Jew just because there had been no Jews in his family for 2500 years.

Now don't try and say this his descendants aren't Jewish because of course his descendants are still Jewish, after all, 2500 years ago there was a Jew in his family.

Don't even try and say that just because he worships another God, that he has to do anything to become more Jewish.

After all, a Jewish man was found in his genealogy 2500 years ago, of course he is a Jew even if he does worship another God.

And being a Jew, he has all the rights and promises given to the Jew.

Isn't that right?
 
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HannibalFlavius

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Extremely well said sevengreenbeans....and Gxg(G2)!

I am certain that the resurgence of interest in genealogies and whether or not somebody may well be partly descended from the lost tribes of Israel is a symptom....and a part.....of this remembering already beginning!







Originally Posted by sevengreenbeans
Yizreel. YHWH scatters and YHWH harvests, or gathers. He knows where His people are, even if they don't know. Though it was prophecied they would forget and lose their identity, it was also prophecied they would remember.



What good would it do if a million gentiles remembered?

Obviously, none.

Who would accept them?

No One!


They would look at that person who remembers and say,'' You must convert.''

And if relies on a conversion{It does} then they are no different than any gentile who converts to become a Jew.

And if it relies on conversion{it does}, then it is no longer about blood, but about conversion.

But if it is about blood, there is no need for conversion.
 
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sevengreenbeans

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I'm interested to know exactly what you meant when you said that you concluded that the Tabernacle will eventually exist again, could you clarify?

I believe the Tabernacle and all its articles and utensils will be revealed to mankind by YHWH (the pattern which was shown to Moshe). I believe it will again be set in its place. I would encourage you to study the Torah to find this place. (Hint: It's not in Jerusalem.) It is close by Yizreel Valley, though.


You say that you do not buy into my replacement theory and so I have to ask.

Who am I replacing?

Have I told any Jew that he is not God's child and I have somehow replaced him? On the contrary, I present myself as a servant even to the unbelieving Jews I know.

One cannot call oneself Ephraim without proper descendancy, or acceptance, else it makes that person an usurper or rather presumptuous.


You said,'' Where in the Torah is the complete destruction of Ephraim spoken?''


The Destruction of Israel-- Amos 9
Are you not as children of the Ethiopians to me, O children of Israel? said the LORD. Have not I brought up Israel out of the land of Egypt? and the Philistines from Caphtor, and the Syrians from Kir? Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are on the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, said the LORD. For, see, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall on the earth.

Hosea-
And the LORD said to him, “Call his name Jezreel, for in just a little while I will punish the house of Jehu for the blood of Jezreel, and I will put an end to the kingdom of the house of Israel.

Jeremiah 7 Warning to Judah:
And I will cast you out of my sight, as I have cast out all your brethren, even the whole seed of Ephraim.

Isaiah 7
Within sixty-five years
Ephraim will be too shattered to be a people.

SevenBeans, The entire book of Hosea details the destruction of the kingdom of Ephraim.

I said, "Where in the Torah?" and you gave me several examples outside the Torah.


You said'' Using your logic that Ephraim represents Gentile Christians, apply this logic to the scriptures you quoted and your premise negates itself.''

Here is the scripture.
Hosea 9:16 Ephraim is stricken Their root is dried up; They shall bear no fruit, Yes, were they to bear children, I would kill the beloved fruit of the womb.''

My God will cast them away, Because they did not obey him; And they shall be wanderers among the nations.

Hosea is showing an end of Ephraim that they would go and be wanderers among the nations.

This is Ephraim becoming gentiles but they have always represented adopted sons in the first place. They fall under the inheritance of Joseph who's children were born from a Gentile woman. Joseph's gentiles sons who were raised gentiles were adopted to be just like all the sons of Jacob.

I never said Hosea 9:16 was about Gentile Christians and how could I when it speaks of the fall of the kingdom of Ephraim?

I only say that Ephraim went into the nations and became gentiles{which they did} but that they had already refused the God of Israel and married into Gentiles before they left.

But Israel is given great hope and a promise that even though they went into the nations and became gentiles, as gentiles they would be accepted and return. But God called them,'' Not my people'' and the term itself speaks of Gentiles...

But great Hope that one day, millions upon millions of Ephraim would remember and return as gentiles. As gentiles they put away all of the ways of other Gods.

How can you tell if a Gentile is of the lost Ephraim?

Does he return and remember his God?

Does he throw off his ways of Pagan Gods?

Or will God just gather a bunch of Gentiles whether they be murderers, child molesters, adulterers who don't even believe in God?

Or would God gather the gentile who has returned to love the Torah and the ways of God and Judah?

Nobody is speaking lashon Hara against Eleazar or any single person...

I made reference to the parable of the rich man and Lazarus and pointed out what the name Lazarus means. I was speaking of Pharisees in the days of Jesus who loved money instead of teaching the people truth and being a light to the nations..............


But we are talking about a mystery that has always been hidden. And we are not talking about a Jew marrying a gentile in the flesh, I'm talking about gentiles becoming one body just as Paul taught.

That gentiles represent flesh like a body represents a house.

The Jew is to be the light of the nations which brings light into the house in a marriage of flesh and spirit.

If the Gentile is taught the ways of God by a Jew, then the spirit of that light dwells within the body.

Galations 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7Why you are no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Romans 8--
Therefore, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. …

The great Mystery of a Jewish man named Jesus and his bride.

In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— for we are members of his body. “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”c This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Paul is speaking about Christ and his church as his bride.

A man{a Jew} will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become oneflesh----This is a profound Mystery---But I am talking about Christ and the church.

Is it wise to pick and choose when it is that Ephraim relates to the kingdom of Ephraim or when it is that Ephraim relates to Gentile Christians? If they are indeed a picture of one another, then they should go hand in hand every time, as a scriptural truth.

I don't think it is a wise thing to do.
 
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sevengreenbeans

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There is no genealogies of the tribes of the Northern kingdom besides what exists amongst the Jews at this time.

The Jews had to marry within their own families in order to keep their genealogy and they didn't even do it. But Nehemiah came and tried to put them back in order, to get rid of their gentile wives.

This was not done in the Northern Kingdom.

Again, They were a separate people who were marrying into Gentiles 100's of years before they ever became lost. God called them,'' Not his people'' because they were not his people.

If people were counting on having a tiny touch of blood from a people who lived 3000 years ago, Then I could also count on being one of God's people because my blood goes back to Adam.

There is absolutely no difference.

A gentile can be birthed in 9 months buy a Jewish man having a child by a Gentile mother. That child is a gentile but he has Jewish blood. So what if that child marries a gentile and has a child of his own?

His child is a gentile no less or no more than his father was.

From the moment gentile blood in introduced into a genealogy, it has been altered and how would anyone fix it?

But we aren't talking about 20 years, or 40 years.

We are talking about Genealogies that have been mixing for almost 3000 years.

Now you take a Jew and he marries a gentile, his child marries a gentile, and his child and so on. You just do this for ten generations or may be for 400 years and what do you have?

Well, Let me tell you what you people might say.

'' Oh, Here is a gentile that found out that 400 years ago, he had a Jew in his bloodline. WE HAVE FOUND A JEW''

That's what I'm assuming that you guys would say of a Gentile who found out that 400 years before had a Jewish grandfather.

I understand that all of you would of course agree that this gentile is a Jew even though no Jewish blood had been introduced in 400 years.

But we aren't talking about 100's of years, we are talking about 1000's of years.

Or should we talk about a man who found out that his great grandfather was a Jew, even though his grandfather, father and mother are gentiles and raised him as a gentile.

I'm sure that all Jews should consider this man a Jew even though he has gentile blood and even though he doesn't even believe in God.

HE IS STILL A JEW ISN'T HE?

Or the Jew who married into gentiles 2500 years ago and kept marrying gentiles and teaching each generation the religion of a Pagan God.

HIS FAMILY TODAY ARE STILL JEWS ARENT THEY?

Now don't try to say that he is not a Jew just because there had been no Jews in his family for 2500 years.

Now don't try and say this his descendants aren't Jewish because of course his descendants are still Jewish, after all, 2500 years ago there was a Jew in his family.

Don't even try and say that just because he worships another God, that he has to do anything to become more Jewish.

After all, a Jewish man was found in his genealogy 2500 years ago, of course he is a Jew even if he does worship another God.

And being a Jew, he has all the rights and promises given to the Jew.

Isn't that right?


DNA can trace matrilineal and patrilineal lines. Kohanim still carry a marker.
 
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visionary

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Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Regarding the underlined, I have no problem within the intended context. I am(father's family) a half-savage, Custer killing, Jesuit eating, hubcap stealing, Howi Wacipi(Ghost Dance), formerly peyote chomping(ah, the intense focus and the ability to "see"), Oglala-Hunkpapa moon-howling, nits breed lice, savage Sioux(Lakota) on a roll(not the kind one butters). Big deal! That my Mom was a Jewess was also beyond my control. So how am I better because by genetic fluke I happen to be, rabbinically a Jew? Truth is, I'm not. I'm mere dust. I need the same Yeshua you and everyone else does.

To my contemporaries, with some I am not quite white enough, to some on The Rosebud and Pine Ridge I am not red enough, to others since I am a Jew that believes Yeshua is the Messiah I'm not Christian enough and at the 2 traditional Shuls I attend I am not quite Jewish enough but I have been given to understand that I am "tolerated" because they hope I will do T'shuva and drop this "Yeshu business". But I do pay the annual membership contribution and do a bit of pro bono services for them and we get along rather amiably may I say. Big deal. And so, that's fine, at least there's consistency there. So, surrounded by everyone, always alone, save for Yeshua.


I have visited several cemeteries over the years and after everyone else has gone home I have asked the residents "Who stands best approved by our Holy G-d?" No audible answer. Only G-d knows. Me, I am hardol(mustard seed, almost nothing).

Women are still women, men are still men, Jews in the flesh are still Jews in the flesh and Oyate Lakota are still "Sioux" and dying like flies from addictionism.

Who's best? Nobody. We're dust.

amba.
If I remember right.. you are looking for some ancestry connections. Maybe this website will help... Israel - Researchers Find American Indians With Jewish Genetic Markers -- VosIzNeias.com
 
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Pete Rambo

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An interesting sod passage I saw this week that may be germaine to the conversation:

John 11:49-56

But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all, 50 nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish.” 51 Now he did not say this on his own initiative, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but in order that He might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.

53 So from that day on they planned together to kill Him. 54 Therefore Jesus no longer continued to walk publicly among the Jews, but went away from there to the country near the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim; and there He stayed with the disciples. 55 Now the Passover of the Jews was near, and many went up to Jerusalem out of the country before the Passover to purify themselves. 56 So they were seeking for Jesus, and were saying to one another as they stood in the temple, “What do you think; that He will not come to the feast at all?”

To me, an interesting picture of the 2000 years since the Messiah's sacrifice.

1. Prophesied that He would be the sacrifice for more than just the Jews.
2. His mission was to gather the scattered and make them into 'one.'
3. From that time on the Jews sought to 'erase his memory'...
4. Y'shua no longer walked publicly (I know 'private' Messianic Jews...) among the Jews.
5. He went into 'Ephraim' in the wilderness (see Ezekiel 20:27-44, or all if you have time) and stayed with His disciples...
6. At the Passover the Jews were seeking Him... (Passover to Rosh Hashanah, if over a 42 month picture sets this up as the beginning of the time of Trouble for Jacob and them crying out, Zechariah 12..)

Personally, Scripture made HUGE sense to me, eschatologically, when I finally understood Two House. I see nothing about blood relation, but 'grafting in' makes perfect sense as the Father chooses His children and causes them to pass under the rod while purging the rebels.

Just my 2 cents.
 
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pat34lee

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What good would it do if a million gentiles remembered?

Obviously, none.

Who would accept them?

No One!


They would look at that person who remembers and say,'' You must convert.''

And if relies on a conversion{It does} then they are no different than any gentile who converts to become a Jew.

And if it relies on conversion{it does}, then it is no longer about blood, but about conversion.

But if it is about blood, there is no need for conversion.

I don't look for people to find out they are Israel (as opposed to Jews). I think YHWH will call them out individually or by families. Since he knew us from the foundation of the earth, it won't be difficult for him to tell us who belongs to each tribe.
 
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HannibalFlavius

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An interesting sod passage I saw this week that may be germaine to the conversation:

John 11:49-56

But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all, 50 nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish.” 51 Now he did not say this on his own initiative, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but in order that He might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.

53 So from that day on they planned together to kill Him. 54 Therefore Jesus no longer continued to walk publicly among the Jews, but went away from there to the country near the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim; and there He stayed with the disciples. 55 Now the Passover of the Jews was near, and many went up to Jerusalem out of the country before the Passover to purify themselves. 56 So they were seeking for Jesus, and were saying to one another as they stood in the temple, “What do you think; that He will not come to the feast at all?”

To me, an interesting picture of the 2000 years since the Messiah's sacrifice.

1. Prophesied that He would be the sacrifice for more than just the Jews.
2. His mission was to gather the scattered and make them into 'one.'
3. From that time on the Jews sought to 'erase his memory'...
4. Y'shua no longer walked publicly (I know 'private' Messianic Jews...) among the Jews.
5. He went into 'Ephraim' in the wilderness (see Ezekiel 20:27-44, or all if you have time) and stayed with His disciples...
6. At the Passover the Jews were seeking Him... (Passover to Rosh Hashanah, if over a 42 month picture sets this up as the beginning of the time of Trouble for Jacob and them crying out, Zechariah 12..)

Personally, Scripture made HUGE sense to me, eschatologically, when I finally understood Two House. I see nothing about blood relation, but 'grafting in' makes perfect sense as the Father chooses His children and causes them to pass under the rod while purging the rebels.

Just my 2 cents.

He went into the land of Joseph and I THINK that he took his disciples from the remnant of the Joseph still alive in Israel within the 7000 reserved Paul speaks of.

The 7000 reserved has nothing to do with Judah, and so I am leaning very strongly in saying that Paul himself was of the tribe of Benjamin from the remnant of Benjamin who was in the northern kingdom.

Benjamin is in both kingdoms, not just Judah.

There is a blood difference, but in reality, blood doesn't really matter.
The Jews are Jews because they continued in their separated culture and they stick out like sore thumbs.

It doesn't matter if gentile blood had been mixed in because at the end of the day, the Jew is that person who comes from a Jewish heritage that continued through tradition and culture.

So what is the difference between the Jews and gentiles?


The gentile is the servant, and everything the gentile nations do, they should do in service to the Jews.

The gentiles of the nations need to realize that in this life, they had better live as servants if they want to be family.

So to me, the difference is that every gentile should go our and find a Jew by the blood and present themselves as servants to see to the needs of the broken hearted of Israel.

The difference is that the Jews have been persecuted for 2000 years because they are Jews refusing to assimilate.

The smart gentile would treat them as family right now, and he would specifically go out trying to find broken hearted poor Jews to help return to Israel and, or to see to the needs of their orphans, widows, elderly.

The smart gentile nations and their kings should serve now because when the time comes, they will be found amongst the nation.
 
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A

aniello

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If I remember right.. you are looking for some ancestry connections. Maybe this website will help... Israel - Researchers Find American Indians With Jewish Genetic Markers -- VosIzNeias.com

Well, with a Jewish mother and Jewish maternal grandparents and their progenitors tracing back to Spain and Sicily through records of transactions, ketubahs and such that takes care of half the ancestry.

As far as the paternal part of my and my siblings ancestry goes I trust that Genesis 10:25 is sufficient. The fact that we know not all the details is no great issue. The likelihood that NAs are secret Jews is nil for some readily discernible reasons, consistently observable since Columbus sailed the ocean blue. But I'll nay say what those reasons are. These reasons hold from the Indians(so-called) of the southern tip of Argentina up through central America, the U.S. clear to the Eskimos and out the Aleutian chain. All of us have certain attributes in common that few if any other ethno-racial groups have all in the same person package. Certain Oriental peoples tend to share one of these attributes with us but definitely not another easily verifiable attribute with us, generally.

Anyway, amongst folks considered to be Jewish(general overall term) the attributes I allude to are not at all typical for 100% Jewish folks, say, dating back to Abraham. But Gen. 10:25 precedes Avram by a bit. So, something to contemplate. To do a terrible paraphrase: Before Avraham was, we wuz here.:D

However, all groups including Jews(general overall term) and NAs come through Noach and are pre-Abraham at the point of Gen. 10:25, therefore the possibility exists that there might be some close DNA, possibly.

The notion that NAs, including the Cherok'e'e, are any of the "Lost 10 Tribes of Israel" I think is silly and not logical nor necessary, besides it's lousy timing. I know Mormons out here where there are gobs of Brighamites who do believe NAs are the lost tribes and they refer to us as "Lamanites" and we're bad, bad, bad, because we wiped out the Nephites who were white, fair, blondish and I suppose the quintessence of Hitlerjungen, in their mythologies. How very nice. Mountain Meadow Massacre anyone?

I really don't have a desire to engage in any such fantasies. It's not necessary and nothing would be gained.
 
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