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Featured The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by FineLinen, Jun 24, 2018.

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  1. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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  2. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    You are a treasure! Thank you for standing on this link to declare His great love in our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. The following grips me to the depths>>>>>

    "..so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it—the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. In Him we also have been made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will, so that we should be devoted to the extolling of His glorious attributes.." -Weymouth-
     
  3. Hillsage

    Hillsage One for Him and Him for all Supporter

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    Not in more scholarly translations does it say that. You're hung up on the word 'eternal'. I have many bibles which don't have the word 'eternal' in them. What they do have is the adjective which is consistently translated through out the new testament. Eternal life is a bad translation. But 'life age lasting' or life age-during' or 'life age lasting' does describe the 'quality of life' which God has made available to his people in all of those former ages.

    Which all boils down to this. YOU DON"T EVEN KNOW WHAT'S "PERISHING". It is your flesh bucket brother. That's the thing that your 'born again' or saved spirit lives in. And, just like an orange or an apple are things you put in the fridge to keep them from 'perishing' or 'rotting' so also is your body perishing. That's why Jesus body never saw 'corruption/perishing' in the grave, like Lazarus' who "stinketh". If you "saved yourself from the sins and wickedness and 'sins' of this generation totally, then you could put on immortality right now and wait for Jesus to return.

    ROM 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

    IN this verse, please tell me, what is the difference between immortality and eternal life? Does your theology explain that? Mine does.

    And, just as clearly, you guys have checked your ability to think for yourselves to trust those who were led astray by the church of Rome who martyred anyone who disagreed with the gospel believed by most, before they came into power. Do your homework and check the qualifications of the following author. I have in my quest for 'the truth'.

    "The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
    by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
    German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

    "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or
    Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other
    theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

    I was a Roman Catholic for 22 years....spouting 'your pet doctrine' which came from 'them'. And they ruled for 1500 years, by doctrine and by sword. Killing and destroying all they could that was written and contrary to 'their truth'....and 'your truth'.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
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  4. needhugs

    needhugs Flibbertyjibbet

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    Judas? listen to his 'fate'...

    Matthew 19:28 New International Version (NIV)

    28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

    Yep, all 12, present and accounted for.
     
  5. needhugs

    needhugs Flibbertyjibbet

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    here is some Biblical proof that God will, in the end, save 'all'
     
  6. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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  7. needhugs

    needhugs Flibbertyjibbet

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    I totally agree... I've been under SEVERE punishment from God since the 90's Hebrews 10:26 and on to 'it's a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God' and 'God will judge His people'

    But God is still with me, helping, holding me up, loving me, thru hell on earth.

    i don't discount hell at all... how could i?
     
  8. needhugs

    needhugs Flibbertyjibbet

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  9. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It's not a licence to sin. Rather the gracious love of God sets free from sin:

    1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love. 19 We love because He first loved us.

    Rom.6: How can we who died to sin live in it any longer? 3 Or aren’t you aware that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

    14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

    "Sin does not stop God's grace from flowing, but God's grace will stop sin."

    Read more at: Joseph Prince Quotes - BrainyQuote

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
     
  10. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    My dear lady; I am reaching deep into Abba for something to express to you. Generally it just flows, but we are not here to speak words, we attempt in what we are doing here to speak words that lift each of us higher into Him. Expanse is breaking upon us raising us by mere degrees into deeper and deeper union with Him. This is no mere doctrine, some feel good idea to dull pain of our existence. We are on a journey into Him, into the expanse of His love, a place to lean on the Bosom of Abba. The fear that is at the basis of so much Churchianity is being broken as each of us in various degrees of glory behold Him afresh. This is a groaning creation crying out for deliverance, to be set free to live back in the Bosom of Him from whence we have come. I must trot off, this has been one long day of unending posting, and my precious wife has just called requesting a pickup & a hug, both of which I intend on doing! Stay with us, there are calibre individuals here already and more will join us.
     
  11. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Burned weeds are neither annihilated or tormented forever.

    Few chosen. For what? A final destiny of salvation? No, Paul says "many" shall be saved, not "few". And by "the many" he means all fallen human beings:

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

    Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

    “In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

    Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

    Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

    "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

    For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf


    See my comment above re "many" not "few" saved and this thread:

    Matthew 7:13-14 does not refute the eventual salvation of all



    If Jesus had wanted to express a hopeless future of endless punishment for Judas, Jesus would have said it would have been better for Judas if he had never been conceived or lived. Or it would have been better for Judas if his parents had never known (had sex with) one another. By choosing not to use such language & choosing the language He did, Jesus rejected the teaching of endless punishment. The following articles address this verse showing various ways universalists harmonize it with universalism:

    FAQ 14. Better had Judas not been born? Matthew 26:24

    The official RCC position re the destiny of Judas Iscariot

    Was it better for Judas had he not been born

    Judas Iscariot — In Heaven or in Hell? Did Judas go to Hell?
     
  12. needhugs

    needhugs Flibbertyjibbet

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    Thank you :) I long for deliverance!! My website only tells about the good stuff
    you know, I used to suffer TERRIBLY about the doctrine of eternal punishment, I mean I used to pace the floor CRYING... I had trouble going to the grocery store and seeing people coz I would wonder if they are headed to hellfire. And all that time, God never said a WORD about it. I've only gotten confirmation about universalism as of late...
    I actually think it's a TEST, designed by God to see if we will BELIEVE that He is what He says He is... THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD... if we will BELIEVE in His goodness.. BELIEVE in His power... there is that scripture about religious people having a form of godliness, BUT DENYING IT'S POWER...
    I think that all the icky responses to the fact that God will eventually save all, have to do with a form of pride, that they are better than hitler (but for the grace of God, there walk any of us, and Hitler was so satanic, yet ever notice that Jesus only cast OUT DEMONS from satanic people, and He never even rebuked them! which i always found striking!) also pride that their salvation was to do with themselves making the choice to be saved, etc... Jesus even said something like 'no one can come to Me unless the Father makes them...'
    Plus, for some reason, it's HARD to get out of that teaching, the teaching of eternal torture... it's just hard, coz the devil wants to keep the church there, coz it keeps the atheists who hate God coz of it, away from Him.

    Thank you for starting this thread.. a lot of us are chicken to say we are universalists, coz of the nasty responses... it's weird to be hated by the world for being Christian, and hated by the church for being a universalist... very lonely. I've been kind of sad about that lately, but it's better to get the approval of God than the approval of men...
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2018
  13. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Easy to say. Quite something else to prove.

    It's 100% sure Jesus never said that, since He didn't use the English language.

    Some more literal versions read:

    The Emphasized Bible (Rotherham) translates the verse, "He that believes on the Son hath life age-abiding; whereas he that yieldeth not unto the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God awaiteth him."

    The Emphatic Diaglott (Wilson): "He believing into the Son has aionian life; but he disobeying the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God abides on him."

    Young's Literal Translation: "He who is believing in the Son hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain on him."

    John 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him." (CLNT)

    This means as long as the stubborn remain stubborn or unbelieving they will not see eonian life.

    It does not mean that the unbeliever or stubborn cannot change and become a believer. If that were true, then no one could be saved, because we were all stubborn and unbelievers at one point.

    It does not deny that all will eventually believe & have their sins taken away. On the contrary the same writer already wrote two chapters before:

    1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

    In chapter 4 he writes:

    39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him,
    they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.

    42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

    John 3:36 does not say a person can only believe in this life time. Or that God's love runs out when a person dies.

    The early church father, Origen, speaks of what is "after eonian life" (mistranslated in the KJV "eternal life"):

    "...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."

    Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena | Nemes | Journal of Analytic Theology

    Because I have sinned against him,I will bear the Lord's WRATH, UNTIL he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light; I will see his righteousness.(Micah 7:9)

    AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22)

    1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

    Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

    New American Standard Bible
    Jn.5:29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of JUDGEMENT.

    Judgement is a good thing:

    When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." (Isa.26:9b)

    The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (Jn.1:29)

    For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. (Jn.3:17)

    They said to the woman, "We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world." (Jn.4:42)

    "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." (Jn.12:32)

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
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  14. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Greek word for perishing is used in Scripture for the "lost" sheep & coin that were later found:

    "8 “Or suppose a woman has ten silver coins[a] and loses one. Doesn’t she light a lamp, sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it? 9 And when she finds it, she calls her friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost coin.’ 10 In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” (Lk.15:8-10)

    The word "eternal" (aionion), transliterated into English as eonian, and the noun aion (eon), which correspond to the Hebrew olam, are often used in Scripture & ancient writings of finite duration:

    Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum


    Perish for how long & in what way? The same Greek word for "perish" is used of the prodigal son who was "lost" but later found.

    More literal versions say:

    16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. (CLV)

    16 for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (YLT)

    16 For God, so loved, the world, that, his Only Begotten Son, he gave,—that, whosoever believeth on him, might not perish, but have life age-abiding. (Ro)

    16 Thus for loved the God the world, so that the son of himself the only-begotten he gave, that every one who believing into him, not may be destroyed, but may have life age-lasting. (Diaglott)

    Not everyone will get EONIAN life, which pro Endless Hell club, anti universalist, versions mistranslate as "eternal life". Those who believe before they die get EONIAN life. They will live & reign with Christ for the 1000 years of the millennial EON (Rev.20). Unbelievers will not. They get saved later since God becomes "all in ALL" (1 Cor.15:22-28). For Jesus is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), "the Saviour of the world" (John 4:42), Who will draw all to Himself (John 12:32).

    John 3:16 says unbelievers "perish", not that they perish endlessly. If Jesus had wanted to say "perish endlessly" there was a Greek word for "endless" He could have used (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4). He could have also used the words "no end" (Lk.1:33) of perishing. Clearly endless punishment is not the teaching of the Word of God.

    "But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts." Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

    >Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism
     
  15. thesunisout

    thesunisout growing in grace Supporter

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    You'll notice I didn't say that Jesus preached more on hell than heaven. I said that Jesus taught more on hell than anyone else in scripture. Why do you think that is?
     
  16. needhugs

    needhugs Flibbertyjibbet

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    it was usually the word 'gehenna' or 'hades'... gehenna was the garbage dump outside the city, where they kept it burning, and threw the bodies of criminals, it was a fate worse than death for the religious Jews at the time, it meant that they had screwed up really badly that's for sure... hades is just 'the place of the dead'... the Apostle Paul never preached on it coz he was speaking to the gentiles, who didn't have the same dump!
    What The Hell Is Hell?
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
  17. thesunisout

    thesunisout growing in grace Supporter

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    Matthew 25:46

    These will go away into eternal(Aionios) punishment, but the righteous into eternal(Aionios) life.

    Jesus uses Aionios in this scripture to show that the wicked go into eternal punishment, and the righteous into eternal life. Unless you think Jesus is saying the righteous don't actually have eternal life?
     
  18. needhugs

    needhugs Flibbertyjibbet

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    I don't think HOW MANY ages are ever spoken of in any reference of that sort.. God only speaks in the Bible of the age of the law, of this age and the age to come, which is the millennial rule... obviously God can have as many ages as He desires, and we are given one final glimpse of one further, where there will be a new heavens and a new earth, but it is only mentioned, not really spoken of, i believe it's mentioned because that age is the 'restitution of all things' age... The Bible speaks mostly of the age of the law, and the age of grace... but 'it is finished' means it's worked out, or BEING worked out, once and for ALL.
    There are others here more knowledgable than i am, perhaps they will answer as well. i don't know what the age of law is called even, and i don't know if the time before the flood is a different age as well.

    Thanks ClementofA:

    "Jude 1:7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian."

    The fire wasn't eternal & neither is the "eternal fire" or punishment in Mt.25:41,46.

    If Christ meant "endless" punishment at Mt.25:46, why use the ambiguous aionios? Why not instead use the word aperantos ("endless"; 1 Timothy 1:4)? Or why not use the words "no end" as in Lk1:33b: "And of His kingdom there will be no end"? The answer seems obvious."

    You will notice that tho it is the same word in the greek, the KJV says 'everlasting' for punishment, and 'eternal' for life.
    in strong's concordance it doesn't even make sense, so there is obviously nothing coherent able to define the ages, especially when nobody KNOWS how MANY ages are being talked about, and HOW LONG those ages are, and with regard to punishment, even it's not just chastising, it would depend on how 'many lashes' the 'wicked servant' deserved (i'm referring to that parable about some servants deserving few lashes, and some deserving many)
    STRONGS NT 166 without beginning or end, that which always has been and always will be
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2018
  19. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Immortality grants the believers endless life at Christ's return. "And so we will always be with the Lord." (1 Thess.4:17). OTOH Mt.25:46 is contrasting eonian destinies, not final destinies, with eonian life to the righteous & eonian chastening to the wicked.

    Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

    Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

    Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

    Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?
     
  20. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    "Aionios" has the scope of ages, like the Hebrew "olam". Eternal life is based on a firmer foundation of "aidios". Both are life from God, one age lasting, the other rooted in the "aidios' God who only can be described as "eternal". The wicked (and Jesus Christ describes exactly what are the qualifications for "everlasting life" & "everlasting punishment in Matthew 25) does not remotely use the word wicked in that regards!
     
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