The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

[ClementofA]

.....According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.

Why should i care? Many "Jews in Israel" rejected Christ, especially the endless hell pushers/Pharisees, & were destroyed in 70 AD by Roman legions.

"Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14).

2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

And your entire post was already dissected, piece by piece, here:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-will-not-change.8070705/page-2#post-72885129

 

[Der Alte]

Much thanks D.A. You never cease to amaze me & F.L. appreciates all I have learned from you!

Companion post to the above post citing Jewish sources. The point of this post is that when Jesus referred to Gehenna He was not referring to a supposedly perpetually burning trash and body disposal site in the valley of Hinnom, which never existed.

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted...Articles/BSac-NT/Scharen-GenenaSyn-Pt1-BS.htm ​

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/ ​

 

[Ron Gurley]

GOD WANTS / DESIRES ALL TO BE SAVED ...but He FOREKNOWS that some will reject His spiritual calling / drawing.

1 Timothy 2 (NASB)
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who DESIRES all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all (WHO ACCEPT) ,
the testimony given at the proper time.

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.” (WHO ACCEPT) ,

GOD OFFERS. Man accepts or rejects.

Revelation 17:14b
...and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.

God calls / draws all. A few hear and accept.

CALL/DRAW/KNOCK...to ALL!

John 6:44
No one can come to Me
unless the Father who sent Me
(spiritually) DRAWS him;
and I will raise him up on the last day.

Matthew 9:13
But go and learn what this means:
‘I desire compassion, and not sacrifice,’
for I did not come to CALL the righteous, but sinners.”

Matthew 22:14
For many are CALLED, but few are chosen.” (by ACCEPTING!)

Ephesians 2:5
even when we were dead in our transgressions,
MADE us (spiritually) ALIVE together with Christ
(by grace (through spirit-led FAITH/BELIEF) you HAVE BEEN saved),

Matthew 7:8 ...Man's spiritual JOBS
For everyone who asks receives,
and he who seeks finds,
and to him who knocks it will be opened.

Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door and knock;
if anyone hears My voice and opens the door,
I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

CHOOSE / CHOICE / "FREE WILL"

Man SPIRITUALLY CHOOSES whether he want to be a "child of God" (saved believer)...or...NOT.

God spiritually calls/draws/knocks to ALL.
EACH Man's spirit must accept or reject.

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that
I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse.
So CHOOSE LIFE in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

1 Chronicles 28:9...KING David to wise son Solomon
“As for you, my son Solomon,
know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind;
for the Lord searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts.
If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; BUT
if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.

 

[com7fy8]

Yes the Bible says things like "all" and "every knee" and "fear", and these terms can have different meanings, depending on what they are talking about. The "fear of the LORD" is a good thing; it is not what is meant by "fear" in 1 John 4:18.

Our Apostle Paul nowhere says in plain words that all humans will be saved. If this were true and so important, I think the Holy Spirit could have made a point of saying this in few and simple words.

Images can help.

For example, Paul says we will reap what we sow. Not all will reap eternal life; this the Holy Spirit has made clear > Galatians 6:7-8.

 

[needhugs]

ok, FineLinen... i'm bowing out of this thread... all the naysayers are just repeating the same things without going to the study stuff we offer... so this is senseless...

it was nice to meet you guyz xox

 

[FineLinen]

GOD WANTS / DESIRES ALL TO BE SAVED ...but He FOREKNOWS that some will reject His spiritual calling / drawing.

1 Timothy 2 (NASB)
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who DESIRES all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all (WHO ACCEPT) ,
the testimony given at the proper time.

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.” (WHO ACCEPT) ,

GOD OFFERS. Man accepts or rejects.

Revelation 17:14b
...and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.

God calls / draws all. A few hear and accept.

CALL/DRAW/KNOCK...to ALL!

John 6:44
No one can come to Me
unless the Father who sent Me
(spiritually) DRAWS him;
and I will raise him up on the last day.

Matthew 9:13
But go and learn what this means:
‘I desire compassion, and not sacrifice,’
for I did not come to CALL the righteous, but sinners.”

Matthew 22:14
For many are CALLED, but few are chosen.” (by ACCEPTING!)

Ephesians 2:5
even when we were dead in our transgressions,
MADE us (spiritually) ALIVE together with Christ
(by grace (through spirit-led FAITH/BELIEF) you HAVE BEEN saved),

Matthew 7:8 ...Man's spiritual JOBS
For everyone who asks receives,
and he who seeks finds,
and to him who knocks it will be opened.

Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door and knock;
if anyone hears My voice and opens the door,
I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

CHOOSE / CHOICE / "FREE WILL"

Man SPIRITUALLY CHOOSES whether he want to be a "child of God" (saved believer)...or...NOT.

God spiritually calls/draws/knocks to ALL.
EACH Man's spirit must accept or reject.

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that
I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse.
So CHOOSE LIFE in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

1 Chronicles 28:9...KING David to wise son Solomon
“As for you, my son Solomon,
know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind;
for the Lord searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts.
If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; BUT
if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.

 

[ClementofA]

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.” (WHO ACCEPT) ,

Few chosen. For what? A final destiny of salvation? No, Paul says "many" shall be saved, not "few". And by "the many" he means all fallen human beings:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

 

[FineLinen]

Lovely to see you again Ron. Yesterday we learned what ta pante means. Correct: the all!

Today my friend, we will look at the word thelo. Abba most certainly has a "desire" for all mankind to be saved; and not only saved "reconciled" back into His loving arms.

However

Thelo does not mean simply "desires", oh my no! He willeth/wills all mankind to be saved. I am of the strong belief that the Will of all wills prevails!

https://www.biblestudytools.com/1-timothy/2-4-compare.html

1 Timothy 2:4 (YLT) who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;

 

[ClementofA]

1 Chronicles 28:9...KING David to wise son Solomon
“As for you, my son Solomon,
know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind;
for the Lord searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts.
If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; BUT
if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…


The word in question is Strongs # 5703, AD. Like the Hebrew word OLAM (5769) it can refer to durations that are finite.
It is used in Hab.3:6. If the translators thought the word AD[5703] always meant "eternal" why would they have translated it as "ancient", "perpetual" and "age-old" as they did here:
"ancient(AD) mountains crumbled" (NIV)
"the perpetual(AD) mountains were shattered" (NASB)
"The age-old mountains were shattered" (ISV)
Likewise, if the translators thought the word AD[5703] always meant "eternal" why would they have translated it as "perpetually" & "continually" as they did here:
"...and his anger did tear perpetually, and he kept his wrath for ever." (Amos 1:11, JPS)
"...In their rage, they slashed them continually and were unrelenting in their anger." (Amos 1:11, NIV)
"...His anger also tore continually..." (Amos 1:11, NASB)
Thus says Yahweh, Due to three transgressions of Edom, and due to four, I will not turn it back, due to his pursuing his brother with the sword,
since he ruins his own compassions. His anger is preying into the future[AD, 5703], and his rage, he keeps it permanently. [CLV, Amos 1:11]
One scholarly lexicon states:
"...As a rule the LXX translates AD as AION. Exceptions include EIS TELOS (1 Chr.28:9) EN KAIRO (Isa.64:8[9]) and APO TOU ETI (Job 20:4)."
(Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament, TDOT, Vol.10, p.462, by Botterweck, G. Johannes, Ringgren, Helmer, Fabry, Heinz-Josef).
https://www.logos.com/product/49541/theological-dictionary-of-the-old-testament
Bible scholar Spiros Zodhiates states in his lexicon:
"'AD (5703, which see) has about the same spectrum of meaning as OWLAM. The Septuagint generally translates OWLAM by AION (165), cf. NT lexical section, referring to a long age or period of time..." (Spiros Zodhaites, The Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible, in the section Lexical Aids To The Old Testament, p. 1621)
"AD...meaning terminus, duration, advance, perpetuity, eternity...Hebrew had no special terms for the past, the present, the future, or eternity. There simply was no general word for time in that language...Only twice was AD used with regard to the past (Job 20:4; Hab.3:6). Otherwise it always denotes the unforseeable future" (p.1620).
Likewise from another well known lexicon:
"AD (q.v.) has substantially the same range of meaning as OLAM (usually long continuance into the future, but c.f. Job 20:4)" (Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, TWOT, Harris, Archer & Waltke, p.673):
https://www.logos.com/product/1102/theological-wordbook-of-the-old-testament
https://www.amazon.com/Theological-Wordbook-Testament-Laird-Harris/dp/0802486495
Helena Keizer remarks in her PHD dissertation:
"...the Hebrew noun 'AD is consistently rendered in the LXX by aion. This indicates that 'AD is semantically related to OLAM." (p.119).
"...JENNI (1976a)...lists as synonyms 'AD, DOR WADOR, OLAM and NETSACH." (p.119, note 34)
"...Short as it is, the word 'AD turns out to be used as a more pointed and less descriptive counterpart of OLAM. Etymologically the noun is related to the homonymous preposition 'AD "unto", "until", "as long as" as well as to the root 'DH "to go on", "to pass". (p.120)
https://books.google.ca/books/about/Life_Time_Entirety_A_Study_of_AION_in_Gr.html?id=l-SmshbeyUsC
The aforementioned Hebrew language scholar Ernst Jenni remarks concerning AD being synonymous with OLAM, DOR WADOR & NESAH & DE OBED on page 855 of the lexicon "The Theological Lexicon of the Old Testament", TLOT, by Jenni & Westermann:
https://www.logos.com/product/4101/theological-lexicon-of-the-old-testament
https://www.amazon.com/Theological-Lexicon-Testament-English-Aramaic/dp/1565631331
The NAS Exhaustive Concordance definition is "perpetuity". The NASB translates AD as perpetual, continually, old, etc..
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5703.htm
"From adah; properly, a (peremptory) terminus, i.e. (by implication) duration, in the sense of advance or perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition)" (Strong's Exhaustive Concordance) at http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5703.htm
The Brown Driver Briggs lexicon of the OT lists for AD "advancing time", "of past time", "of future time", "during lifetime, of king", etc. See:
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5703.htm
A thought on the context of 1 Chr.28:9 is that it isn't speaking about the after life or any "hell", but of Solomon inheriting "the good land" (v.8), both him & his sons after him "unto the eon" (v.8):
And now, before the eyes of all Israel, the assembly of Jehovah, and in the ears of our God, keep and seek all the commands of Jehovah your God, so that ye possess this good land, and have caused your sons to inherit after you unto the age. (1 Chr.28:8, YLT)
Most translations say "forever" (1 Chr.28:8). How will the "good land" be inherited forever when it is going to pass away with the old earth (Rv.20-21)?
if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever. (1 Chr.28:9b, KJV)
This passage (1 Chr.28:9) is about Solomon. Did he or anyone else in the Scriptures ever forsake the Lord & then come back to Him later? (If so, would that prove that the word AD in 1 Chr.28:9 does not mean "forever"?). For example, David, who committed premeditated adultery & murder? Or Peter who denied the Lord three times? Or those spoken of in 1 Cor.5:4,5 & 1 Tim.1:20? Was not OT Israel continually forsaking the Lord & then later returning to Him again?
I'd suggest 1 Chr.28:9 is more favorable to the UR viewpoint than the POV of those who delight in the "good news" of endless tortures.
Also that the pro ECT Bible versions are once again misleading & decieving the public, injecting their own theological biases into the Scriptures, just as they do with the words aion/ios & olam.
According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html

 

[FineLinen]

ok, FineLinen... i'm bowing out of this thread... all the naysayers are just repeating the same things without going to the study stuff we offer... so this is senseless...

it was nice to meet you guyz xox

"Never give up, never give up, never, never, never."

 

[FineLinen]

Yes the Bible says things like "all" and "every knee" and "fear", and these terms can have different meanings, depending on what they are talking about. The "fear of the LORD" is a good thing; it is not what is meant by "fear" in 1 John 4:18.

Our Apostle Paul nowhere says in plain words that all humans will be saved. If this were true and so important, I think the Holy Spirit could have made a point of saying this in few and simple words.

Images can help.

For example, Paul says we will reap what we sow. Not all will reap eternal life; this the Holy Spirit has made clear > Galatians 6:7-8.

How "plain" are you looking for?

""..so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it—the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. In Him we also have been made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will, so that we should be devoted to the extolling of His glorious attributes.."

 

[needhugs]

"Never give up, never give up, never, never, never."

i understand, but the point seems to be that they aren't at all interested in studying and learning.. but rather seem to think they can talk US out of our position, when WE have been studying for YEARS...

it's stooopid lol

 

[ClementofA]

Yes the Bible says things like "all" and "every knee" and "fear", and these terms can have different meanings, depending on what they are talking about. The "fear of the LORD" is a good thing; it is not what is meant by "fear" in 1 John 4:18.

Our Apostle Paul nowhere says in plain words that all humans will be saved. If this were true and so important, I think the Holy Spirit could have made a point of saying this in few and simple words.

Nowhere do Paul or any of the 66 books of inspired Scriptures say anyone will "never" be saved. "If this were true and so important, I think the Holy Spirit could have made a point of saying this in few and simple words." Like at least 66 times. Assuming Love Omnipotent cares enough to warn people of such an unbelievably horrific fate as endless nonexistence or torments that never end.

OTOH, if universalism is true, there is not the same urgency that people know it is true. After all, they are not going to suffer endless punishment. They won't be suffering infinitely for the finite sins of the extremely brief lifetime of a human [whether minutes or decades long] . Although those who die in rebellion & unbelief will still face "hell".

So IMO it seems that the burden of proof is on God, in Scripture, clearly stating His case repeatedly that some will "never" be saved, if that were the truth. If He doesn't, which appears to be the case, then it is false. As elaborated upon here:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-will-not-change.8070705/page-2#post-72885429

Images can help.

For example, Paul says we will reap what we sow. Not all will reap eternal life; this the Holy Spirit has made clear > Galatians 6:7-8.

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Even as translated above, this passage does not say anyone will never be saved or never obtain "eternal life". All humans have been unbelievers, sown to the flesh & reaped corruption as a result, including those who later became believers. And there is nothing in this passage, or anywhere in the 66 books, saying all won't eventually become believers.

OTOH more literal translations don't use the word "eternal", but rather "age lasting", "eonian, etc, e.g.:

7 Be not decived, God is not to be sneered at, for whatsoever a man may be sowing, this shall he be reaping also, 8 for he who is sowing for his own flesh, from the flesh shall be reaping corruption, yet he who is sowing for the spirit, from the spirit shall be reaping life eonian. (CLV) https://studybible.info/CLV/Galatians 6

7 Be not led astray; God is not mocked; for what a man may sow—that also he shall reap, 8 because he who is sowing to his own flesh, of the flesh shall reap corruption; and he who is sowing to the Spirit, of the Spirit shall reap life age-during; (YLT)

7 Be not deceiving yourselves! God, is not to be mocked; for, whatsoever a man soweth, the same, shall he also reap,— 8 Because, he that soweth into his own flesh, out of the flesh, shall reap corruption, whereas, he that soweth into the Spirit, out of the Spirit, shall reap age-abiding life. (RO)

7 Not do you mistake; God not is to be mocked at. That for if may sow a man, this also he will reap; 8 because the one sowing for the flesh of himself, from the flesh he will reap corruption; the but one sowing for the spirit, from of the spirit he will reap life age-lasting. (DG)

https://studybible.info/version/

So even if unbelievers lose out on "eonian life" in, for example, the millennial eon, that doesn't rule out their salvation in an eon after that.

 

[Hillsage]

Hello all... i see the word eternal is out for another kick at the can...
Hillsage... where can i get those teachings? is there an email? a snail mail addy, that i can write to?
thanks, and have fun with the word 'eternal'... i grow weary of that silly argument.

I like what Nehemia Gordon said about the word... (and he doesn't even have a dog in the race lol) ...that in the hebrew it was 'olam' and it meant 'universe' or 'as long as the universe will last'... and he assumed that that was 'eternal'... but we all know it's not, coz there will be a new heavens and a new earth...

I see FL answered for me. I've been tied up with family for the 4th. Just woke up and decided to check in. Hope you enjoy Preston as much as I have. Nehemia is a name I haven't heard in a while. I did enjoy a number of his teachings several years back.

 

[needhugs]

I see FL answered for me. I've been tied up with family for the 4th. Just woke up and decided to check in. Hope you enjoy Preston as much as I have. Nehemia is a name I haven't heard in a while. I did enjoy a number of his teachings several years back.

Thank you, yes, FL showed me the page... I will have to get out to the post office to snail mail a request in!
I like Nehemia's passion for God, but his utter and complete blindness to Christ is bizarre... he can even show saving faith to others about Christ, he KNOWS it's in the Bible, but he just doesn't believe, it's weird... but that only goes to show us that God is in control... or is He? i get confused:

i was discussing 'come sunday' with God... i say 'God? if you burn people in hell forever, that makes you a monster, right? but this evil world.. what of that? letting all this suffering happen when You are sovereign, what does that make You? You 'chastise' us and tell us to be thankful for it, because You hurt the ones You love... You tell us to overcome evil with good, but You overcome evil with causing suffering... what does that make You? I don't understand... if I didn't already know that You are infinitely tender, I would be worried'

do you understand stuff like that?

please forward any understanding on to me, please?

but as i sit here, i know that God IS overcoming all of this evil with GOOD... like a Parent... it's just taking a tad too long for my liking

i don't like having doubts about God... but as i get stronger in Him, i feel it's ok to ask the big questions.

i asked Him about suffering, right when i first got saved, and He answered, crying, saying 'things aren't supposed to be this way!!! people are supposed to be one with God!!'

can you imagine? hearing a sovereign God say 'things aren't supposed to be this way!!!'

one hardly knows what to think!

 

[FineLinen]

The Destruction Of The Wicked

The "Destruction" of the Wicked

Roger Tutt

Hope 4 You, Roger Tutt

Prof. Keith DeRose The Really Good News

Universalism and the Bible – Keith DeRose

"..so abundant was God's grace,the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it—the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. In Him we also have been made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will, so that we should be devoted to the extolling of His glorious attributes.."

The Purpose of God By Vladimir Gelesnoff

In PAUL'S letters repeated reference is made to God's "purpose" (Rom.8:28; 9:11; Eph.1:11; 3:11; 2 Tim.1:9). In all these scriptures the word is prothesis. Its force may be gathered from the fact that the twelve loaves which were placed on the Tabernacle table before the Lord are styled "loaves of purpose" (Matt.12:4; Mark 2:26; Luke 6:14; Heb.9:2).

Hence the scriptures which speak of God's prothesis tell us that He has set before Himself a definite aim or object which He is bent on achieving.

In Eph.3:11, occurs the phrase, "according to the purpose of the eons which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord."

The Purpose Of God, by Vladimir Gelesnoff

George Hawtin: The Restitution Of All Things

https://www.godfire.net/restitutionHawtin.html

 

[com7fy8]

How "plain" are you looking for?

""..so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it—the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. In Him we also have been made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will, so that we should be devoted to the extolling of His glorious attributes.."

You are quoting from which version, here, please?

I am not questioning that this is from a Bible translation. But, since I am not familiar with this writing, for all I know it could be an interpretation of a commentary . . . or a translation. Possibly you are using the Weymouth New Testament.

"whole creation" being restored can mean and include removing the evil people and their evil "spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (in Ephesians 2:2) and sending all evil to the flaming sewer which burns with fire and brimstone, using vessels of dishonor to carry it there > Romans 9:21 < carrying that nasty filth of Satan away from the "new heaven and new earth" where God's children will be.

After all, they are not going to suffer endless punishment.

Hell is not only about punishment. It is God's place for keeping Satan's nasty evil selfish spirit, and its vessels. Fire is needed because Satan and his are so stubborn, that only fire can control them.

"For our God is a consuming fire." (Hebrews 12:29)

If this means hell's fire is God, this shows how the nature of the spirit of evil does not change, even in the presence of God Himself. And God keeps things in order, in vessels . . . of living water of His love, and Satanic stuff in vessels of wrath and dishonor.

But, according to what I see in Hebrews 12:4-14, we now can receive our Heavenly Father's correction making us "partakers of His holiness" . . . "without which no one will see the Lord." This does not say ones can procrastinate until another life. God is easily able to succeed now. Satan is the one who can only promise until some later age, but never deliver on his promises. But God's grace almighty is succeeding now.

And part of why Jesus suffered and died like He did, on Calvary, was because Jesus knows about Hell; and so He considered it worthwhile to suffer that much so we don't go there.

But we need real correction, of His love's perfection >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

Our Biblical assurance, then, of spending eternity with Jesus . . . "that we may have boldness in the day of judgment" . . . is how "in this world" God's love has changed us to become "as He is".

So, while you are so busy with claiming universalism, how much attention do you give to how children of God "in this world" are guaranteed to become because of God's almighty grace changing us to become "as He is" "in this world"?

And how much attention do you give to how God's correction is guaranteed to change us to become, as Hebrews 12:4-14 guarantees? And Hebrews 12:8 is clear, how if a person does not have this correction, "you are illegitimate and not sons." How much do you make sure you tell people about this, since this is in the Bible? This is included in being saved, after all; so are you claiming this, as part of your claim that all will be saved????

 

[needhugs]

Hell is not only about punishment. It is God's place for keeping Satan's nasty evil selfish spirit, and its vessels. Fire is needed because Satan and his are so stubborn, that only fire can control them.

you could do with a little mercy, (ever notice that Jesus, no matter how full of satan a demon posessed person was, Jesus never once rebuked them) yes, mercy, and a little humility, since we are saved by God's Grace, NOT OF OURSELVES!!!!

 

[com7fy8]

you could do with a little mercy,

Jesus does say the merciful will receive mercy (Matthew 5:7). So, if anyone goes to Hell, this will include because he or she was not merciful.

Also, if ones have stubbornly refused to forgive people >

"'And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses.'" (Mark 11:25)

So, yes I am wise to make sure I do not have in me unforgiveness which will go to the flaming sewer, and me with it.

(ever notice that Jesus, no matter how full of satan a demon posessed person was, Jesus never once rebuked them)

But Jesus says, "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten," in Revelation 3:19. Here, I understand, that Jesus means He rebukes but also corrects those whom He loves. The demons only got rebuked; they did not change and benefit from Jesus.

So, in a love relationship, I see from this, there is rebuking, but this is not the same as how Jesus rebuked beings of Satan. But there are people who fear being rebuked because they take any and all rebuking to mean rejection. This is what happened with me and my family, for a while; they could criticize and rebuke things about me and I took it as rejection; then in prayer I realized they were letting me know what problems they had with me because they wanted to share with me and they cared about how it would be. And they were right about how I was wrong.

So, I would say, having mercy on people includes how we do and say what we can to help people to get real correction, as Hebrews 12:4-14 says all God's children get. We desire for all to become adopted by our Heavenly Father so they may join us in receiving this correction which God Himself does in us because He loves us.

and a little humility, since we are saved by God's Grace, NOT OF OURSELVES!!!!

God's grace is almighty to do real correction in us which is not at all of our own selves (2 Corinthians 3:4-5).

But is this what you mean, by what I am quoting you to have said??

 

[FineLinen]

You are quoting from which version, here, please?

I am not questioning that this is from a Bible translation. But, since I am not familiar with this writing, for all I know it could be an interpretation of a commentary . . . or a translation. Possibly you are using the Weymouth New Testament.

Well done, my friend. That is the N.T. Translation of Weymouth, and an excellent one indeed! I will place before all of us a N.T. Translation by my friend and brother>>>>>>>

Jonathan Mitchell N.T. Translation=

http://www.greater-emmanuel.org/jmt/


6. unto praise of His grace's glory [or: into {the} praise of {the} glory of His grace] which He graced us (gifts us with grace) within the One having been loved (the Beloved One) [some MSS: within His beloved Son],

7. in Whom we continuously have (hold) the redemption (the release procured by the payment of a ransom) through His blood, the sending away (forgiveness; dismissal) of the fallings aside (the stumblings by the side; false steps; offences; transgressions) in accordance with (down from) the riches (wealth) of His grace,

8. which He caused to superabound around unto us (or: which He makes to be more than enough into us; which He outflanked into us;... lavishes into us) within all wisdom (in every wise thing) and thoughtful prudence (gut‑intelligence; mindful purpose; considerate understanding),

9. making known to us (acquainting us by experiential knowledge) the secret (mystery; hidden knowledge) of His will (determined purpose; resolve) ‑ in accord with (down from) His good thought which He before placed within Himself [or: designed beforehand {determined by setting forth} within Himself],


10. into an administration of that which fills up the seasons (fitting situations) [or: unto a dispensing of the entire contents of the seasons; a house‑law of the full measure of the fitting situations; a management of a household of the complement of the seasons; an administration of the fullness of the eras], to itself bring back all things (the whole) up under one Head [or: to bring back to and gather round the main point] within the Christ: the things upon [other MSS: within] the heavens and the things upon the land (earth) ‑ within Him!



11. In Whom also we were (are) chosen (appointed) by lot [or: were made an allotted portion; received an inheritance], being previously marked out (being before designated) in accord with (down from) a before‑placed (predetermined by setting forth) design of the One continuously operating (effecting; energizing) all things (the whole) in accord with (down from) the purpose (intent; design; plan; determined counsel) of His will (resolve),

12. into this: that we continuously be (exist) unto [the] praise of His glory ‑ [we] being the ones having before placed expectation (hope) within the Christ."