The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

[mkgal1]

I'm interested in specific verses which state unequivocally that God will save those who are unrepentant in this life, after they die.

What do you suppose it means that Christ defeated - or abolished- death? We certainly know that is does NOT mean that there's no longer [physical] death...so what CAN it mean (in your opinion)? I'm referring to passages like these:

Hebrews 2:14
14 Now since the children have flesh and blood in common, Jesus also shared in these, so that through His death He might destroy the one holding the power of death—that is, the Devil

2 Timothy 1:10
And which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel


1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.

Icon of Victory:

Christ is shown with the instrument of His death plunged deep into Hades. Beneath Christ’s feet – which still carry the marks of His crucifixion – lay the gates of Hades, smashed wide open. Often they are shown laying in the shape of the Cross. Therefore, just as the hymns proclaim, so too does the Icon: Christ has trampled death by death.

https://www.orthodoxroad.com/christs-descent-into-hell-icon-explanation/
​

 

[FineLinen]

I don't know what various groups to listen to, but I do know that Jesus got REALLY ANGRY at the very oral tradition that you are consulting..

Psalm 107:1: “Oh, give thanks to the LORD, for He is good! For His mercy endures forever.”

God obviously had mercy for people who broke the mosaic law... or Jesus would have been the only one to stone 'the adulteress'... but instead He said 'Neither do I condemn you'

if i had to guess who had no mercy, i would say all the religious people with rocks.

God always has mercy, and yes, that punishment is worse than dying.

but I don't want to talk about it. sorry.

I have talked about it a bit in this thread, but I don't want to talk about it with you. Anybody that makes demons happy when they talk is not somebody I want to have anything to do with...

you seem almost gleeful at discovering an endless punishment with no mercy... you are probably very hard hearted. to say the least.

Needhugs: you are loved! I am digging deep to find one thing coming from this fellow that speaks of overwhelming grasp of the Master, even a slight direction. Clement and I are on another board where we have wrestled over the meaning of words. This lad is from Germany, after weeks of discussion has finally declared he is an atheist. I have one purpose on this thread: Jesus Christ saves sinners to the uttermost, the only qualification= being lost!

 

[Der Alte]

well, toss in a dose of severe demonic torment and we will see how you feel about dying THEN...
ok, if you want scriptures and Biblical proof that God is going to save every single rotten one of us, then watch this blasted video that i have posted 2 or 3 times before, but nobody watches... it's PROOF
durnit.]

Sorry, I don't do videos. This is a discussion forum where we discuss, not youtube where we exchange videos. I don't need anyone trying to tell me what the Greek "really means." I started learning to speak Greek the year that Elvis and I were stationed in Germany and I formally studied both Hebrew and Greek at the graduate level about 2 decades after that. I have the premium Hebrew and Greek lexicons in my personal library, i. e. Hebrew; Brown, Driver, and Briggs and Greek; Bauer, Danker, Arndt and Gingrich. If I don't know the meaning of a word I will look it up in one of the lexicons.

 

[Der Alte]

Romans 11:32 King James Version (KJV)32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Perhaps you did not understand my request. "...specific verses which state unequivocally that God will save those who are unrepentant in this life, after they die."
Greek is an inflected language. It has voice, tense and mood. In Rom 11:32 the word translated "might have mercy" is ελεηση/eleésé it is a verb, active, aorist, subjunctive. The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur,
.....If Paul had intended to say that God will absolutely have mercy on all no matter what he would have used the future, active, indicative ελεησω/eleéso as he did in Rom 9:15.

(15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.​

 

[Der Alte]

What do you suppose it means that Christ defeated - or abolished- death? We certainly know that is does NOT mean that there's no longer [physical] death...so what CAN it mean (in your opinion)? I'm referring to passages like these: Hebrews 2:14 14 Now since the children have flesh and blood in common, Jesus also shared in these, so that through His death He might destroy the one holding the power of death—that is, the Devil
2 Timothy 1:10
And which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel
1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Icon of Victory:

Do any of these verses state unequivocally that God will save those who are unrepentant in this life, after they die?

 

[ClementofA]

If this is directed at me, I do as much as is possible but let us consider if we are talking about the "Torah" should we not consider how the Jews, remember them God's chosen people, interpreted their Hebrew scriptures? By quoting Jewish sources that is exactly what I have done. Or should we [re]interpret scripture to make them align with the teachings of various modern religious groups?

Hebrews 10:28-29
(28) He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
(29) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?​

Is this the Heb 10 punishment you referred to? This clearly speaks of a punishment worse than dying without mercy. If something is ending then there is mercy, but Heb 10 says dying, not living and being tormented, dying without mercy. Not mercy someday, not mercy in the after life but without mercy.

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Heb.1:2a in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all

Heb.1:3b When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

Heb.2:2b every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty

Heb.2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put
under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by
the grace of God should taste death for every man.

14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render
powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

15 And might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-will-not-change.8070705/page-2#post-72885429

 

[ClementofA]

I don't need anyone trying to tell me what the Greek "really means." I started learning to speak Greek the year that Elvis and I were stationed in Germany and I formally studied both Hebrew and Greek at the graduate level about 2 decades after that. I have the premium Hebrew and Greek lexicons in my personal library, i. e. Hebrew; Brown, Driver, and Briggs and Greek; Bauer, Danker, Arndt and Gingrich. If I don't know the meaning of a word I will look it up in one of the lexicons.

As to your proficiency in Greek, remember this:

In order for the phrase to be correctly translated "to the king of the ages" the noun βασιλει/basilei must be in the genitive case, as it is in the 29 times it is translated "king of" in the NT. And that is why the NIV and NET translate 1 Tim 1:17 "king eternal."

Here is a response to your statement from a guy who knows some Greek:

"This is simply false, as ANYONE who has even a smattering of Greek knows. It is simply false that βασιλει would need to be in the genitive case to be correctly translated as "to the king of the ages." No, "των αιωνιον" must be in the genitive to mean "of the ages" and it is."

Have you ever had even one lesson in Koine Greek?

 

[ClementofA]

Greek is an inflected language. It has voice, tense and mood. In Rom 11:32 the word translated "might have mercy" is ελεηση/eleésé it is a verb, active, aorist, subjunctive. The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur,
.....If Paul had intended to say that God will absolutely have mercy on all no matter what he would have used the future, active, indicative ελεησω/eleéso as he did in Rom 9:15.

(15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.​

I am checking with my comrades who actually do know some Greek re your comments here, to see if you are in error again re the Greek, as you have been before re some Greek basics.

 

[ClementofA]

Do any of these verses state unequivocally that God will save those who are unrepentant in this life, after they die?

Here's one opinion:

"You will note:

1. The preaching of Christ was to the dead of Noah's day.

2. The dead of that day were "disobedient" and perished in the great flood (8 souls were saved)

3. Those who perished (all minus 8) were confined to "prison" aka "spirits in prison".

4. Jesus Christ "preached" to these "disobedient", aka "even the dead", the good news of His triumph.

5. This proclamation occurred after suffering for sin and "being quickened by the Spirit."

6. Net result= judgement "according" to "men in flesh">>>>leading to living "according to God in spirit."

Beyond that I cannot, and will not go. Rose does not believe in chance, first or second or third etc.

I do, however, believe God loses nothing. He is the Source, the Guide, and the Goal of the ta panta. I also believe none of us grasp (including me) the majesty
of our triumphant Lord, aka "the Saviour of all mankind."

The Scripture under consideration=

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

For unto this end was the gospel preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2927773-why-did-jesus-save-thief-cross-11.html

 

[FineLinen]

What do you suppose it means that Christ defeated - or abolished- death? We certainly know that is does NOT mean that there's no longer [physical] death...so what CAN it mean (in your opinion)? I'm referring to passages like these:

Hebrews 2:14
14 Now since the children have flesh and blood in common, Jesus also shared in these, so that through His death He might destroy the one holding the power of death—that is, the Devil

2 Timothy 1:10
And which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel


1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.

Icon of Victory:

Christ is shown with the instrument of His death plunged deep into Hades. Beneath Christ’s feet – which still carry the marks of His crucifixion – lay the gates of Hades, smashed wide open. Often they are shown laying in the shape of the Cross. Therefore, just as the hymns proclaim, so too does the Icon: Christ has trampled death by death.

https://www.orthodoxroad.com/christs-descent-into-hell-icon-explanation/
​

Why have you taken so very long to join us? Your posts are remarkable and speak of a knowledge of the Holy. Much thanks!

BTW: The next chapter of 1 Peter declares the reason why Christ visited the disobedient dead.

The Inescapable Love Of God

Thomas Talbott- The Inescapable Love of God - 2nd Edition

"..so abundant was God's grace,the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it—the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. In Him we also have been made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will, so that we should be devoted to the extolling of His glorious attributes.."

 

[needhugs]

Needhugs: you are loved! I am digging deep to find one thing coming from this fellow that speaks of overwhelming grasp of the Master, even a slight direction. Clement and I are on another board where we have wrestled over the meaning of words. This lad is from Germany, after weeks of discussion has finally declared he is an atheist. I have one purpose on this thread: Jesus Christ saves sinners to the uttermost, the only qualification= being lost!

he's an atheist?? well that explains the demons cheering him on!!
i hope he has never said the sinner's prayer before, coz he was be in trouble with Abba.
that's how i got in so much trouble, by being an evil atheist, who would hurt Christians, AFTER once saying the sinner's prayer...
thanks for being so kind to me, FL... i really appreciate it, sniff sniff...

 

[needhugs]

Sorry, I don't do videos. This is a discussion forum where we discuss, not youtube where we exchange videos. I don't need anyone trying to tell me what the Greek "really means." I started learning to speak Greek the year that Elvis and I were stationed in Germany and I formally studied both Hebrew and Greek at the graduate level about 2 decades after that. I have the premium Hebrew and Greek lexicons in my personal library, i. e. Hebrew; Brown, Driver, and Briggs and Greek; Bauer, Danker, Arndt and Gingrich. If I don't know the meaning of a word I will look it up in one of the lexicons.

Well, this is the last time i will talk to you... Either you go to the video and get proof positive that God will save everybody, THUS even the ones who die unsaved and unrepentant... or you can go to the heck fire your wish on others, as far as i'm concerned

 

[needhugs]

Do any of these verses state unequivocally that God will save those who are unrepentant in this life, after they die?

John 5:25 (YLT) `Verily, verily, I say to you -- There cometh an hour, and it now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and those having heard shall live;

when i read it, it said 'and if they listen, they shall be saved'

 

[Der Alte]

John 5:25 (YLT) `Verily, verily, I say to you -- There cometh an hour, and it now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and those having heard shall live;
when i read it, it said 'and if they listen, they shall be saved'

"If they listen" not "when they listen" What happens if they don't listen just as they don't listen in this life? Is God going to make them listen? If so, why doesn't God make them listen in the life?

 

[needhugs]

yeah, right, i hope YOU don't listen... you... git.

 

[FineLinen]

he's an atheist?? well that explains the demons cheering him on!!
i hope he has never said the sinner's prayer before, coz he was be in trouble with Abba.
that's how i got in so much trouble, by being an evil atheist, who would hurt Christians, AFTER once saying the sinner's prayer...
thanks for being so kind to me, FL... i really appreciate it, sniff sniff...

 

[FineLinen]

No, no, no. He is an empty shell, but not a declared atheist. I was speaking of a lad on another web site who could parse and exegete till one died of exhaustion. We shall see what enfolds in coming chapters with our resident scholar.

"The whole of created life shall be delivered/set free..."

 

[needhugs]

No, no, no. He is an empty shell, but not a declared atheist. I was speaking of a lad on another web site who could parse and exegete till one died of exhaustion. We shall see what enfolds in coming chapters with our resident scholar.

"The whole of created life shall be delivered/set free..."

yes well... empty shell, i can believe that... can you IMAGINE, Jesus speaking to you, after your death? You see Him in all His beauty, glory, tenderness, and POWER... can you then imagine NOT LISTENING TO HIM?????

gah!!!

 

[FineLinen]

yes well... empty shell, i can believe that... can you IMAGINE, Jesus speaking to you, after your death? You see Him in all His beauty, glory, tenderness, and POWER... can you then imagine NOT LISTENING TO HIM?????

gah!!!

When one is exposed to the glory of the Lord one will need to cover his hands and feet with his wings. In the glorious chapter of Isaiah angelic beings are calling to one another back and forth holy>>>>>holy>>>>>holy. It is antiphonal worship surrounding the Presence. Seeing Him will forever change what you are; one single glance will bring you to the end of yourself. This One who has called us to Himself has destined a little flock to stand in the Blaze, to walk in the glory with Him. Not all of creation is destined for such a wonderfully terrible place, but to the manifold dwelling places of His House all creation is coming Home.

My dear lady: I am pleased you have stayed with us in this little corner of C.F.; together we will sing to one another!

 

[Ron Gurley]

God does not spiritually change ALL from unbeliever to believer.

Matthew 22:14
For many (ALL!) are called, but few are chosen.” (to be saved)

Luke 12:46b
...and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

1 Corinthians 14:22
So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.

2 Corinthians 6 (NASB)...Paul:Believer's Ministry Commended
Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for
what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?
15 Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or
what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?
16 Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God