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Featured The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by FineLinen, Jun 24, 2018.

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  1. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Jesus said blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. We may not be able to determine exactly what it is but we can be assured that it does exist.
     
  2. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    "And all mankind (all flesh) will see/ shall see God's salvation."

    "The Lord will be terrible unto them; for He will famish all the gods of the earth, and men shall worship Him, every one from his place and all the isles of the heathen." -Zeph. 2:11-

    "Men shall worship Him"

    "Every one"

    "From his place"

    "And all the isles of the heathen"

    Indeed, My decision is to gather nations, to assemble kingdoms, to pour out all My burning anger; for all the earth will be devoured by the fire of My zeal. -Zeph. 3:8,9

    The purpose of our Lord's burning anger, and zeal, and devouring? =

    "For then I will give to the peoples purified lips, that all of them may call upon the Name of the Lord, to serve Him with one consent (shoulder to shoulder).

    Our Lord declares through His prophet that He will bring all men, "all of them", to worship Him with one consent, from their place, as He purifies lips by His burning fire, to call upon Him.

    "The Lord of Hosts will make unto all peoples a feast of rich food, a banquet of matured wine well refined. And He will destroy the face of the covering cast over all people, and the veil that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God shall wipe away tears from off all faces;....for the Living Life has spoken it.

    All men, even the isles of the "heathen" serving the Lord shoulder to shoulder! The veil, covering "all people", and "all nations, destroyed. Swallowing up death in nothing short of victory! Tears wiped away from "all faces." The One who endorses such statements? = The Living Life who has spoken it!

    "I will gather the lame, and gather the outcasts, even those whom I have afflicted...and the Lord shall reign over them in Mount Zion from now on and forever.
     
  3. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear St. Paul: You must not be aware of the 3 passages from the Master! Surely the mass "made sinners" in Adam1 are not the mass "made righteous" in the Last Adam, the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Surely not?
     
  4. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Did Jesus say that?
    Or is that what he appears to have said due to the English translation we have?
    Especially when we can see it doesn't make sense. Is it literal or figurative?

    What are we left with?
    There is a sin that can be committed for which there is no forgiveness. ???
    And unfortunately, we have no idea what it is.

    I know this is difficult. We put our faith in the scriptures. We don't want anyone telling us they aren't trustworthy. In reality, our trust should be in God, not in an English translation of the Bible.

    What is God's Word? The words penned in the language they were spoken in, or our English translation? What are the possibilities that something was lost in translation?

    Hopefully you are like me. I hope the Universalists are right.
    Like you, I needed evidence. It requires a lot of study to understand.
    I had to stop objecting and read the material. As I have studied, my questions are being answered one by one.

    All we have to lose is a forever burning hell. Good riddance.

    --- EDIT ---

    I'm working my way through this book.
    Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

    If you are on the Windows platform I recommend reading view. The book icon in the far right of the search field.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2019
  5. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Steve: Many moons ago, before I ever heard the term "restitution of all things", I was a member of a group of churches joined in the fellowship of Spirit. Hundreds of songs were born among us declaring this very thing.

    This Road is one of expanding dimensions of Glory, each leading to more and more of Him. Much of this Road, in fact all of this Road, is by breaking. There are many abodes in Father's House, none equal, but all expressions of union and communion.

    I appreciate the place you are in the process of becoming. The entire process can involve shazzam moments, and for some it involves long periods of prayer and study. In the end, each of us must know beyond any shadow of doubt that the Burning Bush is real, for we have seen it!
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2019
  6. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Thanks for your support and this topic.

    I have gone far enough down this path to see that there is something to it.
    I'm starting to see the holes in the arguments of those who stand boldly against it.

    When we reach out in love, they will be attracted. By curiosity if nothing else.
    I think most are afraid to say it, but they hope we are right. This works to our advantage.

    No one in their right mind applauds a forever burning hell with no hope of escape.
    What madness.

    Have a blessed day.
     
  7. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Steve: The entire dogma of a burning hell as an end in itself, just does not sit well with us. My brother in Christ, John Gavazzoni, while ministering in Youth For Christ heard the Lord say to him, "Do you really believe that of Me?"

    His response= "Well no Lord I don't."

    Index Of Writings Of John Gavazzoni

    Every one of us must answer the following questions>>>

    As we are required to love our enemies, may we not safely infer that God loves His enemies? (Matt. 5:44)

    If God loves His enemies, will He punish them more than will be for their good?

    Would endless punishment be for the good of any being?

    As God loves His friends, if He loves His enemies also, are not all mankind the objects of His love?

    If God loves those only who love Him, what better is He than the sinner? (Luke 6:32-33)

    As "love thinks no evil," can God design the ultimate evil of a single soul? (1 Cor. 13:5)

    As "love works no ill," can God inflict, or cause, or allow to be inflicted, an endless ill? (Rom. 13:10)

    As we are forbidden to be overcome by evil, can we safely suppose that God will be overcome by evil? (Rom. 12:21)

    Would not the infliction of endless punishment prove that God HAD been overcome by evil?

    If man does wrong in returning evil for evil, would not God do wrong if He was to do the same?

    Would not endless punishment be the return of evil for evil?

    As we are commanded "to overcome evil with good," may we not safely infer that God will do the same? (Rom. 12:21)

    Would the infliction of endless punishment be overcoming evil with good?

    If God hates the sinner, does the sinner do wrong in hating Him?

    Is God a changeable being? (James 1:17)

    If God loves His enemies now, will he not always love them?

    Is it just for God to be "kind to the evil and unthankful," in their present life? (Luke 6:35)

    Would it be unjust for God to be kind to all men in a future state?

    -Questions requiring answers by A.C. Thomas-
     
  8. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    "How could the Bible possibly speak of the perfect victory of God our Creator who loves righteousness and cannot bear evil, if that victory really means that He cannot bring His own creatures at last to hate evil as He hates it, but must confirm multitudes, indeed the majority of them, in their choice of evil for ever and ever?... What sort of victory is it to be able only to subdue evil and prevent it harming any but those who choose it, and to be unable to bring human souls to abominate it and desire to forsake it, so that the evil itself ceases to exist?" –Hannah Hurnard-
     
  9. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I AM A CONVINCED UNIVERSALIST -Dr. Wm. Barclay

    I am a convinced universalist. I believe that in the end all men will be gathered into the love of God. In the early days Origen was the great name connected with universalism. I would believe with Origen that universalism is no easy thing. Origen believed that after death there were many who would need prolonged instruction, the sternest discipline, even the severest punishment before they were fit for the presence of God. Origen did not eliminate hell; he believed that some people would have to go to heaven via hell. He believed that even at the end of the day there would be some on whom the scars remained. He did not believe in eternal punishment, but he did see the possibility of eternal penalty. And so the choice is whether we accept God's offer and invitation willingly, or take the long and terrible way round through ages of purification.

    Gregory of Nyssa offered three reasons why he believed in universalism.

    First, he believed in it because of the character of God. "Being good, God entertains pity for fallen man; being wise, he is not ignorant of the means for his recovery."

    Second, he believed in it because of the nature of evil. Evil must in the end be moved out of existence, "so that the absolutely non-existent should cease to be at all." Evil is essentially negative and doomed to non-existence.

    Third, he believed in it because of the purpose of punishment. The purpose of punishment is always remedial. Its aim is "to get the good separated from the evil and to attract it into the communion of blessedness." Punishment will hurt, but it is like the fire which separates the alloy from the gold; it is like the surgery which removes the diseased thing; it is like the cautery which burns out that which cannot be removed any other way.

    But I want to set down not the arguments of others but the thoughts which have persuaded me personally of universal salvation.

    First, there is the fact that there are things in the New Testament which more than justify this belief. Jesus said: "I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself" (John 12:32). Paul writes to the Romans: "God has consigned all men to disobedience that he may have mercy on all" (Rom. 11:32). He writes to the Corinthians: "As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive" (1 Cor. 15:22); and he looks to the final total triumph when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:28). In the First Letter to Timothy we read of God "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth," and of Christ Jesus "who gave himself as a ransom for all" (1 Tim 2:4-6). The New Testament itself is not in the least afraid of the word all.

    Second, one of the key passages is Matthew 25:46 where it is said that the rejected go away to eternal punishment, and the righteous to eternal life. The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used of anything but remedial punishment. The word for eternal is aionios. It means more than everlasting, for Plato - who may have invented the word - plainly says that a thing may be everlasting and still not be aionios. The simplest way to out it is that aionios cannot be used properly of anyone but God; it is the word uniquely, as Plato saw it, of God. Eternal punishment is then literally that kind of remedial punishment which it befits God to give and which only God can give.

    Third, I believe that it is impossible to set limits to the grace of God. I believe that not only in this world, but in any other world there may be, the grace of God is still effective, still operative, still at work. I do not believe that the operation of the grace of God is limited to this world. I believe that the grace of God is as wide as the universe.

    Fourth, I believe implicitly in the ultimate and complete triumph of God, the time when all things will be subject to him, and when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:24-28). For me this has certain consequences. If one man remains outside the love of God at the end of time, it means that that one man has defeated the love of God - and that is impossible. Further, there is only one way in which we can think of the triumph of God. If God was no more than a King or Judge, then it would be possible to speak of his triumph, if his enemies were agonizing in hell or were totally and completely obliterated and wiped out. But God is not only King and Judge, God is Father - he is indeed Father more than anything else. No father could be happy while there were members of his family for ever in agony. No father would count it a triumph to obliterate the disobedient members of his family. The only triumph a father can know is to have all his family back home. The only victory love can enjoy is the day when its offer of love is answered by the return of love. The only possible final triumph is a universe loved by and in love with God.

    -William Barclay: A Spiritual Autobiography, pg 65-67, William B Erdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, 1977-
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2019
  10. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    This one really stood out to me. Wow.

    Romans 11:32
    For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
     
  11. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Saint: I frequent a number of boards. On one is an older woman who does not get too involved with Scripture or what flows from it. What she does express is a deep union and faith in the Lord. In response to the post on Dr. Wm. Barclay "I believe in the end all men will be gathered into the love of God", she summed it up thus>>>

    Well, of course they are...it could be no other way.
    Do I even have to say why? I mean, c'mon.


    Why does it take F.L. so many words to express what one amazing woman can reduce to one profound statement? I am going to retire from posting. LOL.

    Steve: The joy that comes by the awakening within you, is most fulfilling. You are rapidly joining the ranks of remarkable men and women who have been immersed into this glorious Song.
     
  12. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Hello S S.
    There is actually a member on CF with that name. Him and I are like, bros :)

    random person
    1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20
    Male, from Riverside California
    Member Since: Dec 10, 2013
    Messages: 3,646
    ==========================
    Speaking of Saint Stephen, he is also my Patron Saint and I just got thru posting about him on this other thread......
    Why is there hatred of St. Paul?
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2019
  13. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    My friend LittleLamb: What a glorious Day we proclaim! There is, and always has been, a remnant who have been born out of His Life. The Day is fast approaching, (not fast enough for me), when the whole of created life shall be delivered from the curse. Yup, no more curse, no more death, the God of Glory swallowing death in victory!

     
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  14. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    For those who may be concerned about what is being said about translation errors in the Bible, please consider the appearance of the word "Easter" in the King James Version. Is this not a translation error?

    Acts 12:4 King James Version
    And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.
     
  15. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    The "age to come".
    This "present age" and the "age to come".
    If an age is measurable, how can the age to come be eternal? (without beginning and end)


    Matthew 12:32
    Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

    Mark 10:30
    will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life.

    Luke 18:30
    will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

    Luke 20:35
    But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage,

    Ephesians 1:21
    far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come.
     
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  16. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Another curiosity in the context of one of the verses in my previous post.
    Jesus refers to "those who are considered worthy" to take part "in the age to come".
    Seems to be a determination or "consideration" made in the afterlife.

    Luke 20:34-36
    Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.
     
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  17. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Search= eternal hell =

    "Your search query has yielded no results. Please modify your query and try again."

    No more let sins and sorrows grow,
    nor thorns infest the ground;
    he comes to make his blessings flow
    far as the curse is found,
    far as the curse is found,
    far as, far as the curse is found. -Isaac Watts-

    Curse= katanathema=

    By metonymy: accursed thing put to the thing announced.

    “The leaves of the Tree are for healing the nations. Never again will anything be cursed. The Throne of God and of the Lamb is at the center. His servants will offer God service—worshiping, they’ll look on his face, their foreheads mirroring God. Never again will there be any night. No one will need lamplight or sunlight. The shining of God, the Master, is all the light anyone needs. And they will rule with him age after age after age.” -The Message-

    Age after age after age
     
  18. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    That statement "leaves" me in wonder. What "medicine" is this that brings healing to the nations?
     
  19. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear S.S.: This amazing medicine flows from the Author & Finisher, the Source, the Guide & the Goal of ta panta

    Every created thing ( παν κτισμα — pān ktisma ). Every creature in a still wider antiphonal circle beyond the circle of angels (from κτιζω — ktizō for which see 1 Timothy 4:4; James 1:18), from all the four great fields of life (in heaven, upon the earth, under the earth as in Revelation 5:3, with on the sea επι της ταλασσης — epi tēs thalassēs added). No created thing is left out. This universal chorus of praise to Christ from all created life reminds one of the profound mystical passage in Romans 8:20-22 concerning the sympathetic agony of creation ( κτισις — ktisis ) in hope of freedom from the bondage of corruption. If the trail of the serpent is on all creation, it will be ultimately thrown off. -N.T. Word Pictures-

     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2019
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  20. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    In this video this guy doesn’t know the difference between aiṓn G165 and aiṓnios G166. That’s why he counts aiṓnios as occurring in the New Testament 165 times. According to Strong’s Concordance aiṓnios appears 71 times and aiṓn appears 127 times. So I’m still not sure how he got 165 times when Strong’s says 198 if he’s counting both aiṓn and aiṓnios together. Aiṓn can mean either world or age but it can also mean forever. Here is a supreme example of this. Matthew 6:13 in The Lord’s Prayer.


    And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.


    ever


    G165


    Lemma:

    αἰών


    Transliteration:

    aiṓn


    Pronounce:

    ahee-ohn'


    Part of Speech:

    Noun Masculine


    Language:

    greek


    Description:

    1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity

    2) the worlds, universe

    3) period of time, age


    Grammar:

    from the same as ἀεί; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):--age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). Compare χρόνος.


    Occurrences in Bible:

    128


    Occurrences in Verses:

    102


    KJV usage:

    ever (71x), world (38x), never (with G3364) (with G1519) (with G3588) (6x), evermore (4x), age (2x), eternal (2x), misc (5x).


    Here’s the Greek transliteration which shows a word for word translation that provides the Greek word used along with the English word and reference number.


    Matthew 6:13 Greek Text Analysis


    Surely God’s kingdom will reign forever and not for an age or any limited amount of time.


    Another example Mark 11:14


    Mark 11:14 Greek Text Analysis


    The fig tree withered and died Jesus was not saying this fig tree will not bear fruit for an age, He was saying it will never bear fruit again.


    Luke 1:33


    Luke 1:33 Greek Text Analysis


    John 6:51


    John 6:51 Greek Text Analysis


    John 6:58


    John 6:58 Greek Text Analysis


    John 8:35


    John 8:35 Greek Text Analysis


    John 12:34


    John 12:34 Greek Text Analysis


    John 14:16


    John 14:16 Greek Text Analysis


    Romans 1:25


    Romans 1:25 Greek Text Analysis


    Romans 9:5


    Romans 9:5 Greek Text Analysis


    Romans 11:36


    Romans 11:36 Greek Text Analysis


    I can provide many more examples of aiṓn G165 referring to forever or everlasting that CANNOT refer to a limited amount of time. Notice the person in this video does not show these examples and does not indicate in any way that aiṓn can mean forever. In fact he is pushing towards the opposite that it only refers to a limited amount of time. If you don’t trust the links I provided I’m sure there are numerous other sites you can find to confirm the validity of my claim.


    Aiṓnios has a different meaning and in every case, except four of them, it does mean everlasting or eternal. In every case where G166 is used the grammar fits perfectly with the definition eternal or everlasting. For some reason unknown to me this person refuses to acknowledge that G166 means everlasting destruction. At 17:49 seconds into the video he says that personality he would prefer the term ruin over everlasting destruction. To me this appears to be nothing more than a refusal to accept what is written and an attempt to insert his own definition to support his universalist belief. There is no reason why the term everlasting destruction would not be the proper definition. He is failing to make the distinction between aiṓn G165 and aiṓnios G166. Allow me to provide some examples of aiṓnios G166 being used in the scriptures. Here are some examples of aiṓnios G166 in the scriptures that irrefutably must refer to everlasting or eternal.


    Romans 16:26


    Romans 16:26 Greek Text Analysis


    2 Corinthians 4:18


    2 Corinthians 4:18 Greek Text Analysis


    2 Corinthians 5:1


    2 Corinthians 5:1 Greek Text Analysis


    1 Timothy 6:16


    1 Timothy 6:16 Greek Text Analysis


    Hebrews 9:14


    Hebrews 9:14 Greek Text Analysis



    I can find dozens and dozens more cases where aiṓnios refers to eternal or everlasting. In every single case of aiṓnios G166 being used in the New Testament, which is 71 occurrences, it is referring to eternal or everlasting except for three cases where it is used in conjunction with chrónos G5550 which means time and in conjunction refers to the beginning of time. That’s 68 cases of aiṓnios referring to eternity or everlasting, most of them in reference to eternal life but also eternal fire, eternal punishment, eternal damnation, eternal kingdom, eternal glory, and a few more. The guy in this video doesn’t mention any of the cases where both aiṓnios and aiṓn must refer to eternal, eternity, or everlasting. To me it appears that he is fixed on only showing examples that fit his agenda to prove that eternal punishment is incorrect. If not then why doesn’t he show any of the examples where it can ONLY pertain to eternal or everlasting? I would suggest looking into more sources on this subject brother. This source seems to be geared towards one side of the discussion and not giving a more comprehensive understanding of these words.
     
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