The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

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Saint Steven

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Evaluate what exactly? Like I said the scriptures I provided have gone unanswered. Luke 12:10 and Mark 3:29 both say that those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Unlike the parallel verse in Matthew they don’t give a reference to time. So universalism teaches that either blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven or people will enter heaven with unforgiven sin. Matthew 7:21 says not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. Universalism teaches that they will.
No. I don't think Universalism teaches that people will enter heaven with unforgiven sin.
Universalism teaches that God will restore all people by removing their sin. As I understand it. (I'm still learning)
 
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BNR32FAN

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Do you even know what blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is? Does anyone?

Well personally I believe it could be either someone who doesn’t accept Christ as their Savior or it could be someone who fails to abide in Christ without repentance and turns away from Him.
 
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No. I don't think Universalism teaches that people will enter heaven with unforgiven sin.
Universalism teaches that God will restore all people by removing their sin. As I understand it. (I'm still learning)

But doesn’t that contradict Luke 12:10 and Mark 3:29?
 
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Saint Steven

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Well personally I believe it could be either someone who doesn’t accept Christ as their Savior or it could be someone who fails to abide in Christ without repentance and turns away from Him.
You stated that you are concerned about what the scriptures say. And that's good. Can you find what you just wrote above anywhere in the context of that passage?

The church has done us a great disservice by feeding us answers like this. The same is true about Universalism. We have been told all of our lives that there is a forever burning hell where God sends those who have either never heard of him or those who have rejected him to burn forever with no hope of escape.
 
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No. I don't think Universalism teaches that people will enter heaven with unforgiven sin.
Universalism teaches that God will restore all people by removing their sin. As I understand it. (I'm still learning)

See typically universalists will turn to Matthew 12:32 when dealing with Luke 12:10 and Mark 3:29 and say that this is referring to a temporary punishment.

“Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:32‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Matthew 12:32 can possibly be interpreted that way but it can also mean that a person is never forgiven. To say that Luke and Mark are referring to a temporary punishment implies that these verses are stated incorrectly and that the author meant to imply a temporary punishment which is not what is indicated in these verses. So basically they’re saying that Luke and Mark didn’t present the message correctly and Matthew did instead of interpreting them in such a way that all 3 are correctly written which would be that sin against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
 
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Saint Steven

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See typically universalists will turn to Matthew 12:32 when dealing with Luke 12:10 and Mark 3:29 and say that this is referring to a temporary punishment.

“Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:32‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Matthew 12:32 can possibly be interpreted that way but it can also mean that a person is never forgiven. To say that Luke and Mark are referring to a temporary punishment implies that these verses are stated incorrectly and that the author meant to imply a temporary punishment which is not what is indicated in these verses. So basically they’re saying that Luke and Mark didn’t present the message correctly and Matthew did instead of interpreting them in such a way that all 3 are correctly written which would be that sin against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
It sounds like you are pretty close to understanding this. But don't blame the gospel writers, blame the translators. And the Church (capital C) that pushed for such renderings to promote eternal punishment.
 
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BNR32FAN

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You stated that you are concerned about what the scriptures say. And that's good. Can you find what you just wrote above anywhere in the context of that passage?

The church has done us a great disservice by feeding us answers like this. The same is true about Universalism. We have been told all of our lives that there is a forever burning hell where God sends those who have either never heard of him or those who have rejected him to burn forever with no hope of escape.

Yes, any sin can be forgiven but someone who is not in Christ will not be forgiven. This can also be deduced from other scriptures as well.

“"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:31‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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Not if you understand the time frames involved. The English translations leave much to be desired.

What time frame does Luke 12:10 and Mark 3:29 give?

“but he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God. And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:9-10‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“"Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin" -”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭3:28-29‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Even Matthew says it won’t be forgiven.

“"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:31‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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Saint Steven

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Yes, any sin can be forgiven but someone who is not in Christ will not be forgiven. This can also be deduced from other scriptures as well.

“"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:31‬ ‭NASB‬‬
But how is that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?
Personally, I think this verse is key to understanding this.

Mark 3:22
And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebul! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.”
 
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It sounds like you are pretty close to understanding this. But don't blame the gospel writers, blame the translators. And the Church (capital C) that pushed for such renderings to promote eternal punishment.

I also use the Greek interlinear bible and study the Greek definitions of the words used.

Luke 12:10

10 Καὶ (And) G2532 Conj πᾶς (everyone) G3956 Adj-NMS ὃς (who) G3739 RelPro-NMS ἐρεῖ (speak) G2046 V-FIA-3S λόγον (word) G3056 N-AMS εἰς (against) G1519 Prep τὸν (the) G3588 Art-AMS υἱὸν (Son) G5207 N-AMS τοῦ (the) G3588 Art-GMS ἀνθρώπου (man) G444 N-GMS ἀφεθήσεται (forgiven) G863 V-FIP-3S αὐτῷ (him) G846 PPro-DM3S τῷ (the) G3588 Art-DMS δὲ (but) G1161 Conj εἰς (against) G1519 Prep τὸ (the) G3588 Art-ANS ἅγιον (Holy) G40 Adj-ANS πνεῦμα (Spirit) G4151 N-ANS βλασφημήσαντι (blasphemes) G987 V-APA-DMS οὐκ (not) G3756 Adv ἀφεθήσεται (forgiven) G863 V-FIP-3S

Mark 3:29

29 ὃς (whoever) G3739 RelPro-NMS δ’ (But) G1161 Conj ἂν (whatever) G302 Prtcl βλασφημήσῃ (blasphemes) G987 V-ASA-3S εἰς (against) G1519 Prep τὸ (the) G3588 Art-ANS πνεῦμα (Spirit) G4151 N-ANS τὸ (the) G3588 Art-ANS ἅγιον (Holy) G40 Adj-ANS οὐκ (never) G3756 Adv ἔχει (has) G2192 V-PIA-3S ἄφεσιν (forgiveness) G859 N-AFS εἰς (against) G1519 Prep τὸν (the) G3588 Art-AMS αἰῶνα (age) G165 N-AMS ἀλλὰ (but) G235 Conj ἔνοχός (guilty of) G1777 Adj-NMS ἐστιν (is) G1510 V-PI-3S αἰωνίου (eternal) G166 Adj-GFS ἁμαρτήματος (sin) G265 N-GNS
 
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BNR32FAN

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It sounds like you are pretty close to understanding this. But don't blame the gospel writers, blame the translators. And the Church (capital C) that pushed for such renderings to promote eternal punishment.


But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

eternal

G166


G166


Lemma:

αἰώνιος


Transliteration:

aiṓnios


Pronounce:

ahee-o'-nee-os


Part of Speech:

Adjective


Language:

greek


Description:

1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be

2) without beginning

3) without end, never to cease, everlasting


Grammar:

from αἰών; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):--eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
 
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Saint Steven

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What time frame does Luke 12:10 and Mark 3:29 give?
The problems are in the translation. The English text will not help.
I'm not sure I can explain much further than that. Hopefully some random stranger will help us out here. - lol
 
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Saint Steven

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But how is that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?
Personally, I think this verse is key to understanding this.

Mark 3:22
And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebul! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.”

Yes that is also a reasonable explanation. I’ve heard some say that attributing the works of the Holy Spirit to that of demons can be blasphemy of the Holy Spirit but personally from what I know of the scriptures I believe someone could do such a thing in ignorance and if they later came to Christ I believe they would definitely be saved.
 
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Check this out.


Oh man I’m sorry I’m at work I only have a few minutes before I have to get busy. I’ll have to watch it later. I don’t have 20 minutes to watch the whole thing.
 
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FineLinen

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I pay attention to the scriptures, not random people on the internet my friend. Please forgive me as I do not know you and you have not provided a valid explanation of how universalism doesn’t contradict Luke 12:10, Mark 3:29, or Matthew 7:21.

Dear Lord Jesus: You must be wrong! You simply cannot draw/drag off in power/ impel all mankind unto Yourself. These 3 words of yours prevail. The Restitution of the all as spoken thru the prophets cannot be correct: sorry!

You must be wrong, Lord! You are successful at losing no remnant pieces of fish and bread that nothing be lost but fail as the Mercy Seat to lose most of those for whom You have made atonement. Sorry!

"This, in a nutshell, is that will: that everything handed over to me by the Father be completed - not a single detail missed - and at the wrap-up of time I have everything and everyone put together, upright and whole. This is what my Father wants: that anyone who sees the Son and trusts who he is and what he does and then aligns with him will enter real life, eternal life. My part is to put them on their feet alive and whole at the completion of time." -Jesus, the Christ-
 
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Dear Lord Jesus: You must be wrong! You simply cannot draw/drag off in power/ impel all mankind unto Yourself. These 3 words of yours prevail. The Restitution of the all as spoken thru the prophets cannot be correct: sorry!

You must be wrong, Lord! You are successful at losing no remnant pieces of fish and bread that nothing be lost but fail as the Mercy Seat to lose most of those for whom You have made atonement. Sorry!

"This, in a nutshell, is that will: that everything handed over to me by the Father be completed - not a single detail missed - and at the wrap-up of time I have everything and everyone put together, upright and whole. This is what my Father wants: that anyone who sees the Son and trusts who he is and what he does and then aligns with him will enter real life, eternal life. My part is to put them on their feet alive and whole at the completion of time." -Jesus, the Christ-

I don’t see any of that in Luke 12, Mark 3, or Matthew 7. What passage are you quoting? The restitution of all things? That’s an extremely vague passage of scripture in comparison to the ones that specifically state that not everyone will be forgiven and not everyone will enter heaven. Restitution can mean a lot of things, so can the term all things.
 
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Saint Steven

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Yes that is also a reasonable explanation. I’ve heard some say that attributing the works of the Holy Spirit to that of demons can be blasphemy of the Holy Spirit but personally from what I know of the scriptures I believe someone could do such a thing in ignorance and if they later came to Christ I believe they would definitely be saved.
Right. That's the conundrum here. How can there be an unforgivable sin?
Jesus paid the price for all but one? And we have no idea what it is.
It's a difficult passage. And certainly not one to base an argument on.
 
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Saint Steven

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Oh man I’m sorry I’m at work I only have a few minutes before I have to get busy. I’ll have to watch it later. I don’t have 20 minutes to watch the whole thing.
No hurry. Get to it when you can.
With your interest in the NT Greek, you will probably find it as fascinating as I did.
I have watched it several times. It's the most scholarly and knowledgeable presentation on the subject I have ever seen.
 
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