Why is there hatred of St. Paul?

[Radagast]

I’m not familiar with any Christian theologians who put any of Paul’s epistles in the second century. None of the early patristic writings give us this understanding.

Indeed, early 2nd century writings quote Paul's epistles.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Post deleted by LLoJ after reading the last post from another member:

redleghunter said: ↑
I’ve often had to defend the Apostolic mission of St Paul on numerous occasions here on CF until they put a new rule in place.

David Cabrera said: ↑
When was that rule implemented?

redleghunter said: ↑
About 18 months ago. I think you can find it either in the General theology statement of purpose or the Controversial Christian a Theology statement of purpose.

Are you talking about this (part of the general CF rules):

Challenging Paul's position as an Apostle of Jesus Christ who (although not one of the original twelve) was sent forth by Christ after his conversion [Acts 9:15-16], or arguing against the inclusion of Paul's writings in the New Testament canon, is not allowed in any "Christians Only" forums (including the Controversial Christian Theology forum). You may disagree on the interpretation and application of his writings, but not their place as canon or Paul as an inspired author of Scripture.

 

[Radagast]

About 18 months ago. I think you can find it either in the General theology statement of purpose or the Controversial Christian a Theology statement of purpose.

Are you talking about this (part of the general CF rules):

Challenging Paul's position as an Apostle of Jesus Christ who (although not one of the original twelve) was sent forth by Christ after his conversion [Acts 9:15-16], or arguing against the inclusion of Paul's writings in the New Testament canon, is not allowed in any "Christians Only" forums (including the Controversial Christian Theology forum). You may disagree on the interpretation and application of his writings, but not their place as canon or Paul as an inspired author of Scripture.

 

[klutedavid]

It has been present since old times since he had to defend his apostleship and keeps coming not only from Jews, Muslims, and atheists but even from people who called themselves Christians. I don't think any of the Apostles is as controversial as him.

Paul correctly identified that obedience to the law does not generate a divine righteousness. The law only grants a knowledge of sin and that's all the law does. The law specifically condemns all who peer into it, and the reason for this is that our flesh is corrupt.

No one want's to hear that they are utterly lost without Jesus Christ. And certainly not from those that respect the law and are self righteous.

Paul would have received deep persecution not only from the legal brigade but also from other Christians. He spent his entire Christian life as a wanted man and continually explained his divine apostleship to everyone.

 

[klutedavid]

I wish Luke would have given a fuller account of the salvation of St Paul. From the time he left Jerusalem to the time he returned to Jerusalem. I would have loved to have read of his early sermons.

I think the first letter to the Thessalonians is a reflection of his early preaching.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

He is first introduced at the stoning of my patron Saint, Stephen

Stoning of Stephen against the Law

Acts 7:1 And the High-priest said, "are these things so?"

54 Now when they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed upon him with their teeth.
56 and he said, "Look! I see the heavens having been opened/ διηνοιγμένους<455>and the Son of the Man standing out of rights of the God!"
58 and dragged him out of the city and began to stone him.
His accusers took off their coats and laid them at the feet of a young man named Saul

Romans 13:11
And this being aware/knowing the time, that hour already ye out of sleep to be roused,
for now nearer of us the Salvation than we believe

Revelation 12:10
And I hear great voice saying in the Heaven: "Now became the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of the God of us, and the authority of the Christ of Him, that was cast the Accuser of the brothers of us, the accusing/kathgorwn <2723> (5723) them in sight of the God of us day and night.

Peter acknowledged him...............

2 Peter 3:
15 And remember, our Lord's patience gives people time to be saved. This is what our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you with the wisdom God gave him—
16 As in all the letters, speaking in them about these-things; in which are difficult to understand any which the un-learned and un-steadfast are wresting/twisting,
as also the rest of the Writings, toward the own of them destruction/apwleian <684>. [# 684 used reve 17:8, 11]
=============================
Rom 1:1
Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God

1Co 1:1
Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2Co 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,
To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in all Achaia:

Gal 1:1
Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),

Eph 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

Col 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,

1Ti 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope,

2Ti 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ[fn] by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

Tit 1:1
Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness,

 

[Not David]

The only reason there are various denominations today is because there lacked a Church-State government to kill them off. Praise be to God such entities no longer exist and how we conquer souls and error is with the Gospel.

No part of the topic, but believing Church-State saves "Christianity" is what put Christianity in downfall.

 

[grandvizier1006]

As St. Paul wrote much of the material that would go on to form the standard NT canon, the reasons for the dislike of the apostle among non-Christians should be obvious, as they disagree with our religion and think it to be false.

And among Christians, too, I think it is also obvious, although a bit different: St. Paul said many things in his epistles which seem to rub certain Christian people or traditions in the wrong way. I remember sitting in on some RCIA classes back when I was Roman Catholic and the women who taught it (in consultation with the priest, but he rarely showed up himself; when he did, they were silent) got to the portion of St. Paul's epistle to the Corinthians when the apostle writes that women should keep silent in the churches. Obviously, the RCC in our day has not really kept to this rule (depending on how it is interpreted, of course), as women may do the readings and serve as Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist in many parishes, and I think one of the women realized that the students would notice this and just sort of quickly laughed it off and said "Heh...you know, that Paul had a lot of strong opinions, and maybe some trouble with women..."

I remember being shocked and not sure how to respond, because of course these women were in charge of teaching the acolytes, so I didn't want to start a scene or anything. So I just thought "Well, that's her way of dealing with that verse" (which it was) and moved on as she did. Still, looking back on it...I dunno...

But I think the sort of sentiment that she voiced is a common enough one among many Christians who would like to see themselves and therefore their religion as more egalitarian than a bare reading of that verse or certain other verses would suggest. So of course since those verses come from St. Paul's epistles, they are attributed to his thinking (read: his misogyny), and he is degraded in their minds as a result. It's sad, but I think that's what I saw at work, and have seen at work since then among Christians who are more 'cutting-edge' and progressive than I apparently am. (And I don't even see that followed as literally in my Church as in maybe some other churches, particularly Protestant ones that might read everything incredibly literally; priest's wives, nuns, and so on have given talks in our churches with the blessings of the clergy -- they just don't play a clerical role of any kind in the liturgy outside of their place as laywomen unless they're abbesses or deaconesses at a monastery, in the same way that me being a man doesn't entitle me to give the deacon's responses or something, since I'm a layman. I dunno.)

It tends to be the more progressive types that are most offended by Paul. I can remember initially reading the verses where he was supposedly sexist and thinking of him that way. Thankfully some other people straightened me out on that issue but I can't remember exactly what arguments they used that Paul did not have this low view of women.

 

[Not David]

It tends to be the more progressive types that are most offended by Paul. I can remember initially reading the verses where he was supposedly sexist and thinking of him that way. Thankfully some other people straightened me out on that issue but I can't remember exactly what arguments they used that Paul did not have this low view of women.

Something about "women being silent", "the woman being the one tempted and made after Adam", and "women being saved through birth".

 

[grandvizier1006]

Something about "women being silent", "the woman being the one tempted and made after Adam", and "women being saved through birth".

I know the verses, I just meant how I was convinced that they weren't sexist.

 

[SkyWriting]

It has been present since old times since he had to defend his apostleship and keeps coming not only from Jews, Muslims, and atheists but even from people who called themselves Christians. I don't think any of the Apostles is as controversial as him.

He is the only person in history that Jesus struck blind for 3 days.
Rather odd behavior.

 

[Pádraigín Ní Saorlaith]

Interesting, I feel the opposite. That St. Paul has old rules that contrast with a "care-free Jesus" and that stuff.

I've found this too. Many liberal-leaning Christians think Paul is too harsh or too strict. Some have chosen to reinterpret his writings, while others have chosen to ignore his work altogether (never mind that the man wrote fourteen books of the New Testament). I know plenty of liberal-leaning Christians who don't do this and take Paul's words to heart.

That the Lord Jesus came to abolish obedience and promote love.

To be fair, that's not totally an off statement. Jesus's message was based in a love for God and a love for others, and He did fulfill the Old Covenant. However, our love for God ought to lead us to trust and obey Him. Our love for God and our obedience to Him will lead us to properly love others.

 

[Not David]

He is the only person in history that Jesus struck blind for 3 days.
Rather odd behavior.

And St. Peter is the only person that Christ called Satan.
Rather odd.

 

[Not David]

I've found this too. Many liberal-leaning Christians think Paul is too harsh or too strict. Some have chosen to reinterpret his writings, while others have chosen to ignore his work altogether (never mind that the man wrote fourteen books of the New Testament). I know plenty of liberal-leaning Christians who don't do this and take Paul's words to heart.


To be fair, that's not totally an off statement. Jesus's message was based in a love for God and a love for others, and He did fulfill the Old Covenant. However, our love for God ought to lead us to trust and obey Him. Our love for God and our obedience to Him will lead us to properly love others.

By love I mean "post-modern love" rather than the Christian type of love.

 

[bèlla]

I like Paul. His tenacity and zeal are inspiring. However, if I had a problem the issue is with God not him. He’s just a vessel.

The more you’re wedded to ‘you’ the harder God is to embrace. But the more you love Him the greater your respect for His word.

Pliability is part of servanthood. As is submission and obeisance. When we place ourselves outside of the jurisdiction He set we develop illegitimate biases and gripes.

He’s not our peer. We’re subordinate to Him.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I like Paul. His tenacity and zeal are inspiring. However, if I had a problem, the issue is with God not him. He’s just a vessel.

The more you’re wedded to ‘you’ the harder God is to embrace. But the more you love Him the greater your respect for His word.

Pliability is part of servanthood. As is submission and obeisance. When we place ourselves outside of the jurisdiction He set; we develop illegitimate biases and gripes.

He’s not our peer. We’re subordinate to Him.

Hello LB and great post
IMHO, I think some of the problems with the Jews and some Jewish-Christian sects accepting Paul is perhaps because there really is no place in the OT that prophecies his coming?

Yeshua/Jesus and Judaism versus Paul and Christianity

I love studying Paul and dearly like him, so I try to find some places in the OT that might be similar to him.

Saul in the OT comes to mind, as he became an adversary to David, just as Saul/Paul was an adversary to the Christian Church in Acts.

I also can, in some ways, equate Saul/Paul with Jonah [one of my favorite books in the OT.] and brought that up on a thread about Jonah sometime back.

What about Jonah

Notice how Jonah is told to go the the Gentile city of Nineveh:

Jonah 1:
1 Now the word of Yahweh came to Jonah son of Amittai, saying,
2 “Arise! Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before Me

The Apostles were also told they would be brought before Gentile Kings and Governors:

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread
Matthew 24:9

Mark 13:9
Yet be ye looking out yeselves!
For they shall be delivering ye up into Sanhedrins and into Synagogues, and ye shall be being lashed<1194>
and unto Governors and Kings to be standing on account of Me, into a witness/testimony to them.

Luke 21:12
Yet before all of these, they shall be laying the hands upon ye and shall be persecuting/pursuing ye, delivering ye up into the Synagogues and Jails,
being led unto Kings and Governors on account of the Name of Me
==========================
And like Jonah and the Apostles/Disciples, Paul is commissioned by the Lord to go to the Gentiles and Kings:

Acts 9
15 “Go!” said the Lord. “This man is My chosen instrument to carry My name before the Gentiles and their kings, and before the people of Israel. 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for My name.”

 

[redleghunter]

Indeed, early 2nd century writings quote Paul's epistles.

Indeed.

Early Christian NT References

 

[Guojing]

More like ignored rather than hate. Many churches preach extensively from the 4 Gospels instead. When they mention Paul and quote from his letters, they treat Paul more like an extension of the original 12 apostles.

 

[dqhall]

It has been present since old times since he had to defend his apostleship and keeps coming not only from Jews, Muslims, and atheists but even from people who called themselves Christians. I don't think any of the Apostles is as controversial as him.

Many people hate Christianity and are perusing their own agendas. I did not find Paul was infallible. By looking for the good in his writings, I found him to be valuable, at least valuable enough to reread his letters numerous times.

I remember Paul lived during times when Greeks thought the supreme god was Zeus who lived on Mt. Olympus and hurled lightening bolts from the sky. The Hebrews emphasized YHWH as a warrior more than as a healer. People errantly thought God desired animal sacrifices. They errantly wanted to stone people who did not agree with their ordinances about Sabbath observance. They forgot, “Thou shall not kill.”

 

[Albion]

It has been present since old times since he had to defend his apostleship and keeps coming not only from Jews, Muslims, and atheists but even from people who called themselves Christians. I don't think any of the Apostles is as controversial as him.

My guess is that it owes to the fact that Paul is far more consequential than any of the other Apostles when it comes to Scripture and its teachings.

Because the Bible is our doctrinal authority, what Paul says in any of his Epistles naturally poses a problem for anybody who doesn't care for what he gave us.