The real rapture that makes sense

[Clare73]

Hi Keras, I am not wanting to carry on the rapture stuff but I would like to give you a better answer as to time lines in Revelation.
At the very start of this thread you made the point that the Bowls continue after the Trumpets. I did answer but not very clearly. So I though it was best clear this up.
Are the seals, trumpets, and bowls describing the same set of judgments three times?
The seals, trumpets, and bowl judgments all end their descriptions with the Day of Judgement (6:17; 11:15,18; 16:17,20) which leads me to believe that the seals, trumpets, and bowls are three retellings of the same set of judgments but from a different angles and so therefore they can show extra happenings that will occur leading up to the return of Christ.

For what it's worth, and keeping in mind that I have a broad over-all view of Daniel and Revelation,
seeing the visions in them both as the sum (completion) of prophecy regarding God's decrees for the OT Church and its temporal end in Daniel,
as well as the visions in Revelation being the sum of prophecy regarding God's decrees for the NT Church and its temporal end, so I tend to see

the seven seals as completion of the trial and persecution of the Church (seed of the woman, Gen 3:15),
the seven trumpets as completion of the protection and victory of the Church,
the seven signs as completion of the conflict of the two spiritual kingdoms, and

the seven bowls poured out as judgment of Satan's kingdom (seed of the serpent) with the 7 plagues,

"seven" being one of the symbolic numbers for completion, and then moving on to

chps 17-19 as the destruction of Satan's kingdom, and
chp 20 as the victory of the church taking us to the final judgment at the end of all time.

End of the Seals
Rev 6:17 (The 6th Seal. The 7th seal ushers in the next stage of the Trumpets)
“For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

End of the Trumpets
Rev 11:15 & 18 (The 7th Trumpet)
“…..“The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”……. The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

End of the Bowls
Rev 16:17 & 19 (The seventh bowl)
“……“It is done!”…….. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath”

Revelation cannot be read as a long timeline starting with the Seals, then Trumpets and lastly Bowls because that would mean we would need 4 lots of Gods Day of Judgement. (Seals Judgement, Trumpet Judgement, Bowl Judgement and Gods Day of Judgement)

So if the seals, trumpets and bowls are all retelling the same judgements from a different angle, the final Seventh trumpet will usher in the rapture and Gods Day of Judgement as in:

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

1Thes 4:16-17
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. But the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Another that makes sense
Matt 24:30-31
“Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. “And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 11:15
Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

I know that most people read Revelation as a continuing time line and that has allowed for the rapture theory. But they have missed that each of the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl Judgements end with the final Day of God Judgement.

Some people say that these are not repeating the same judgements from a different angle. But what we can take from it, is that all of them finish with Gods Day of Judgement.
Cheers

 

[eleos1954]

As I said in post #155.
We all know that the body has to be in existence to sleep.
And we all know that the body eventually turns to the dirt from which it was made and no longer even exists as a body capable of sleep.
We all know the dead body is not asleep, it is gone, it has returned to the dirt from which it was made.

Those verses are not stating what you claim they are.
What you claim is not orthodox Christianity.

God has the power of resurrection .... so it makes sense to me that He would describe death as a sleep .... as all will be resurrected some day .... some to eternal life .... some not. Jesus Himself called/described the first death as sleep .... ie Lazarus is asleep I go to wake him.... ie Lazarus is dead.

What about those who were resurrected (from the grave - ie the tombs/graves were opened) when Jesus was crucified? and then they appeared to many ... all "in tact".

Using the term sleep in His Word ... is all over the place really ... and is described as a dormant state .... ie the dead know nothing .... and many many other verses.

What branch of orthodox Christianity are you a member of so I can better research it?

Could you provide some links so I don't go a incorrect site? PM would be fine as we are kind of getting off topic here.

I do enjoy learning about what people believe, may not agree with them on all points (agree to disagree on some) but do try to gain understanding why they believe certain things.

 

[Clare73]

God has the power of resurrection .... so it makes sense to me that He would describe death as a sleep ....

And if it's just a description like "Grandma's lap was as soft as a pillow," no problem, it's not literal.

Keeping in mind that those sleeping can be seen and touched.
No one will be seeing and touching Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; George Washington, Thomas Jefferson or
Benjamin Franklin, all in their "sleep."

Carry on. . .

as all will be resurrected some day .... some to eternal life .... some not. Jesus Himself called/described the first death as sleep .... ie Lazarus is asleep I go to wake him.... ie Lazarus is dead.

What about those who were resurrected (from the grave - ie the tombs/graves were opened) when Jesus was crucified? and then they appeared to many ... all "in tact".

You don't have to be asleep and "in tact" for God to raise you, he can raise you from a pile of dirt.

In that regard, see Genesis 3:19; Job 7:8; Psalms 37:36; Psalms 103:16; Acts 20:25.

Using the term sleep in His Word ... is all over the place really ... and is described as a dormant state .... ie the dead know nothing .... and many many other verses.
What branch of orthodox Christianity are you a member of so I can better research it?

First of all, my understanding came from Scripture before I selected a denomination. I sought out a denomination as close to my understanding as I could find, and it was Reformation Christianity.

Could you provide some links so I don't go a incorrect site? PM would be fine as we are kind of getting off topic here.

I do enjoy learning about what people believe, may not agree with them on all points (agree to disagree on some) but do try to gain understanding why they believe certain things.

 

[1Tonne]

I disagree with the idea that the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are the same events, described from different angels. Careful reading of those events, shows that idea to be wrong.
One of the Lord's Day of Judgment, will be the Sixth Seal and some time after that, He will carry out the punishments of the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls, during the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns; at the 7th Bowl, the Battle of Armageddon.
Then Jesus will Judge the nations, Matthew 25:31-33
After the Millennium God will judge everyone who has ever lived. Revelation 20:11-15

I have looked a little more at the time lines of the Curses. When reading Chapter 15:1 it does say that the bowls are after the other curses. So the last. So that is correct.
So I have looked at the curses to see if they can happen in sequence with the last of each set of curses being Day of Judgement at the end. Anyway, I have made a diagram that I have attached where it shows this could work still.

An interesting thing to note is that there could be one more interlude that I have not added in which would be between the 6th bowl and the 7th. Rev 18:10 says
Rev 18:10 KJV
"...Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come"

(I know you may not agree with this Keras but thanks for making me think outside the box)

 

[keras]

Rev 18:10 KJV
"...Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come"

My view is that Revelation 14:8-20 and Rev 18:1-24, are both more detail of the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. Rev 6:12-17
There are over 100 other prophesies about this forthcoming terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath.
We have no excuse for not being aware of it and being prepared both physically and spiritually.

 

[1Tonne]

My view is that Revelation 14:8-20 and Rev 18:1-24, are both more detail of the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. Rev 6:12-17

Also the 7th bowl. Rev 16:19. Babylon or the people of Babylon are judged. These are the final curses repeating themselves.

I view Babylon as its proper place on the map. Saudi Arabia.
I am one of those people who believe that the AntiChrist will come out of Islam. Saudi Arabia being where the world's biggest place for false worship is. Mecca.
Saudi Arabia is very, very rich and so the kings (rulers or rich people) of this world do trade a lot with her.
Anyway, that is my 2 cents. If you are interested in knowing the similarities between Christian end times belief and Islamic end times belief, I can post them up. You will find that they are exactly the same except mirror images. Even right down to the 7 year peace treaty and ruling from Jerusalem and having a false prophet (which by the way is called "Isa" which is Arabic for Jesus. So a false Jesus).

 

[eleos1954]

And if it's just a description like "Grandma's lap was as soft as a pillow," no problem, it's not literal.

Keeping in mind that those sleeping can be seen and touched.
No one will be seeing and touching Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; George Washington, Thomas Jefferson or
Benjamin Franklin, all in their "sleep."

Carry on. . .

You don't have to be asleep and "in tact" for God to raise you, he can raise you from a pile of dirt.

In that regard, see Genesis 3:19; Job 7:8; Psalms 37:36; Psalms 103:16; Acts 20:25.

First of all, my understanding came from Scripture before I selected a denomination. I sought out a denomination as close to my understanding as I could find, and it was Reformation Christianity.

We follow Jesus .... when He appeared after His resurrection it was Him in human bodily form .... He did not see corruption ... we do ... but even so we will become like Him.

Romans 6:5

New International Version
For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.

Luke 24:39

Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see Me to have.”

Yes, we turn to dust ... but will be raised incorruptible, when He returns.

What I meant by "in tact" ... is that we will be ourselves ... but incorruptible. Body, soul spirit ... incorruptible ... until then (His return) we are indeed dust in the ground.

 

[keras]

Also the 7th bowl.

The Seventh Bowl is Armageddon, the first action of Jesus when He Returns to the earth. Revelation 16:17-18
I view Revelation 16:19-21, as a flashback, more details of the Sixth Seal.

In Revelation 19:15b, the mention of Jesus treading the winepress of the fierce wrath of God, also is a reference to the already happened; Sixth Seal event.
Proved by Revelation 19:21, where He merely destroys the attacking armies by the Sword of His Word.

I view Babylon as its proper place on the map. Saudi Arabia.

In all the Prophesies after the Jews 70 years exile there, the word; Babylon is used as a type of an ungodly city or nation.
This means that today; every city and nation is a type of Babylon and when the Lord sends His fiery wrath, they will all be affected. Jeremiah 25:30-33, Luke 21:34-35

Islam will have all their holy places destroyed and most of the Muslim peoples will be wiped out. Isaiah 17:1, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Romans 1:18, +

 

[Clare73]

We follow Jesus .... when He appeared after His resurrection it was Him in human bodily form .... He did not see corruption ... we do ... but even so we will become like Him.

Paul says the resurrection body is a spiritual (sinless, immortal, glorious) physical body as distinct from the natural (sinful, mortal, weak) physical body (1 Corinthians 15:42-44).

Romans 6:5

New International Version
For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.

Luke 24:39

Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see Me to have.”

Yes, we turn to dust ... but will be raised incorruptible, when He returns.

What I meant by "in tact" ... is that we will be ourselves ... but incorruptible. Body, soul spirit ... incorruptible ... until then (His return) we are indeed dust in the ground.

 

[1Tonne]

I just found another scripture that points to everyone including believers and non believers are taken up into the clouds as stated in 1Thes 4:13-18. It is not just believers as in the rapture theories.
Here is the 1Thes 4:13-18 verse:
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first (martyrs for the 1000 year reign). Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words"

Here is the matching verse that shows it is everyone. Not just believers but also non believers
Rev 1:7
BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him.

If only the believers are taken up into the clouds during this "rapture", then how can those who pierced him see him too. They are not believers and so they would still be dead or asleep or have no consciousness.
The reason that those who pierced him can see him, is because everyone, non believer included are raised from being corruptible (mortal) to incorruptible (immortal) and then they face judgement for eternity

 

[keras]

If only the believers are taken up into the clouds during this "rapture", then how can those who pierced him see him too.

The few unbelieving Jews that remain, Romans 9:27, are the ones referred to in Zechariah 12.

1 Thess 4:13-17 des not say 'all' will be raised at the Return.
This does not happen until after the Millennium. Rev 20:11-15

 

[1Tonne]

1 Thess 4:13-17 des not say 'all' will be raised at the Return.
This does not happen until after the Millennium. Rev 20:11-15

I agree. The actual return to earth is only with the martyrs. Not all believers.
There are 2 things happening in 1Thes 4:13-17. First is the resurrection of the Dead in Christ who return with Christ to the earth and reign for 1000 years from Jerusalem . Then after the 1000 years he returns in the clouds and raptures up everyone. 1Thes:17 says, "Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up". How long do they remain? The answer is 1000 years.
So when it mentions coming in the air or coming in the clouds, this is to take up everyone after the Millennium to give an account. That is where Rev 1:7 fits in.
Rev 1:7
BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him.
So everyone.

 

[Clare73]

I just found another scripture that points to everyone including believers and non believers are taken up into the clouds as stated in 1Thes 4:13-18. It is not just believers as in the rapture theories.
Here is the 1Thes 4:13-18 verse:
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first (martyrs for the 1000 year reign).

"The dead in Christ who rise first" are all the deceased saints, with all deceased mankind in the one and only resurrection of the last day at the second coming of Christ, which deceased saints will then join the living saints to be raptured before the eyes of all mankind. These are the two groups being distinguished here.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words"

Here is the matching verse that shows it is everyone. Not just believers but also non believers
Rev 1:7
BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him.

If only the believers are taken up into the clouds during this "rapture", then how can those who pierced him see him too. They are not believers and so they would still be dead or asleep or have no consciousness.

No, it is the one and only resurrection of all mankind without exclusion in the last day (John 6:39-40, 44, 54), and all are raised before the rapture.

The reason that those who pierced him can see him, is because everyone, non believer included are raised from being corruptible (mortal) to incorruptible (immortal) and then they face judgement for eternity

But the unbelievers are not raptured.
The two groups of people being distinguished in the rapture are the deceased saints and living saints,
they are not believers and unbelievers.

 

[Clare73]

REGARDING THE "MILLENNIUM"

NT apostolic teaching is:

The kingdom of God is here now (Matthew 12:28; Luke 11:20),
where Jesus reigns now (Ephesians 1:20-23) and the saints reign with him now (Ephesians 2:6),
it is not of this world (John 18:36)
it is spiritual--invisible (Luke 17:20) and within (Luke 17:21) the hearts of those where Jesus reigns and rules, and
it is never-ending (Luke 1:33), it moves from time to eternity at the end of time; by definition there is no temporal kingdom which can follow it, nor is there any temporal kingdom set up alongside it, which would be contradictory to its eternal nature.

Likewise, NT apostolic teaching is:

the resurrection occurs in the last day (John 6:39),
which resurrection occurs with the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16),
which rapture occurs with the second coming (Matthew 24:39-41),
which second coming occurs with the judgment of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-33),
thus specifically presents only one of each and locates all of them in the last day.

We have no Biblical authority for interpreting prophetic riddles in any way that is in disagreement with the NT apostolic teaching above.

In addition, regarding the land promise to the patriarchs and their seed (Genesis 17:8):

it was fulfilled under the reign of Solomon (1 Kings 4:21, 1 Kings 4:24-25) where they possessed
and occupied the land to the borders of the land promise.
There remains no land promise of Genesis 17:8 to Israel, and any remaining promises to Israel are being fulfilled in a remnant (Romans 11:1-5, Romans 11:29).

Israel is now and always on the same footing as all mankind: the only temporal/eternal Messianic Kingdom--it being set up at Christ's first coming--is accessible only by faith in Jesus Christ.

So regarding the "millennium":

I suspect the "millennial" reign is figurative of the church age, where Christ reigns now (Ephesians 1:20-23; Mark 16:19) with the saints (Ephesians 2:6), with the first resurrection being from eternal death into eternal life in the new birth, which secures from the second death.

 

[keras]

I agree. The actual return to earth is only with the martyrs. Not all believers.

Right: as Revelation 20:4 plainly states.

There are 2 things happening in 1Thes 4:13-17. First is the resurrection of the Dead in Christ who return with Christ to the earth and reign for 1000 years from Jerusalem . Then after the 1000 years he returns in the clouds and raptures up everyone.

This is confusion.
Jesus only Returns once.
After the Millennium, comes the Judgment, then the new Heavens and Earth. God Himself comes to dwell with mankind on earth. Rev 21:1-7

 

[1Tonne]

"The dead in Christ who rise first" are all the deceased saints, with all deceased mankind in the one and only resurrection of the last day at the second coming of Christ, which deceased saints will then join the living saints to be raptured before the eyes of all mankind. These are the two groups being distinguished here.

No, it is the one and only resurrection of all mankind without exclusion in the last day (John 6:39-40, 44, 54), and all are raised before the rapture.
But the unbelievers are not raptured.
The two groups of people being distinguished in the rapture are the deceased saints and living saints,
they are not believers and unbelievers.

But it specifically points to 2 resurrections in Rev 20:4. The first being only the dead Martyrs and the rest are not raised until after this. It even says this in Rev 20:5. "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection."

1Thes 4:16 says "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God" This is at the last trumpet that ushes in the judgement seat. 1Thes 4 then says "and the dead in Christ shall rise first" So first the dead in Christ as mentioned in Rev 20:4 are raised before the trumpet occurs. (Like is have said in previous posts, I like the word "but" more than "and". But it still makes sense with the word "and".)

Then in 1 Corinthians 15-51-52 you might notice that it does not say "and the dead saints shall be raised incorruptible". It says "and the dead shall be raised incorruptible”. So here it does not mention that these are only the believers. It is everyone who is left That being the believers and non believers. P

John 6:39-40, 44, 54 all mention that the believers are raised on the last day. I agree. All believers are raised along with the non believers and they go to all give an account and are then separated. The only believers who are raised before the last day are the martyrs from Rev 20:4 who come back with Chrsit and reign for 1000 years.

 

[1Tonne]

Right: as Revelation 20:4 plainly states.

This is confusion.
Jesus only Returns once.
After the Millennium, comes the Judgment, then the new Heavens and Earth. God Himself comes to dwell with mankind on earth. Rev 21:1-7

Jesus does only return once to earth. That is for the Millennial reign with the martyrs. The second time he returns, it does not says that he comes to earth, it only says that everyone will meet him in the clouds.
So after the millennial reign, ever person (believer and non believer) meet him in the clouds, and then goes to Judgement. Then the new Heavens and Earth. God Himself comes to dwell with mankind on earth.
We do actually seem to agree

 

[1Tonne]

Right: as Revelation 20:4 plainly states.

This is confusion.
Jesus only Returns once.
After the Millennium, comes the Judgment, then the new Heavens and Earth. God Himself comes to dwell with mankind on earth. Rev 21:1-7

One thing I did not mention is, Christ returns for the 1000 year reign and then satin is released and he deceives many. Then this is where satin surrounds Jerusalem with his armies and it sounds more like satin is in control than Christ. The reason for this is, I believe Jesus is no longer there. It makes no mention that Christ is surrounded but only the camp of the saints and the beloved city. So I do not think Christ is there once satin is released. So this is how he is able to come on the clouds a second time.

 

[Clare73]

But it specifically points to 2 resurrections in Rev 20:4. The first being only the dead Martyrs and the rest are not raised until after this. It even says this in Rev 20:5. "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection."

I understand Revelation to be figurative.

1Thes 4:16 says "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God" This is at the last trumpet that ushes in the judgement seat. 1Thes 4 then says "and the dead in Christ shall rise first" So first the dead in Christ as mentioned in Rev 20:4 are raised before the trumpet occurs. (Like is have said in previous posts, I like the word "but" more than "and". But it still makes sense with the word "and".)

Then in 1 Corinthians 15-51-52 you might notice that it does not say "and the dead saints shall be raised incorruptible". It says "and the dead shall be raised incorruptible”. So here it does not mention that these are only the believers. It is everyone who is left That being the believers and non believers. P

Good find. . . but is not the context all the way back to v.12 referring to believers only?

John 6:39-40, 44, 54 all mention that the believers are raised on the last day. I agree. All believers are raised along with the non believers and they go to all give an account and are then separated. The only believers who are raised before the last day are the martyrs from Rev 20:4 who come back with Chrsit and reign for 1000 years.

 

[Douggg]

This trumpet is the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11:15-18. Anyone who is dead or alive (not asleep), will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. This includes non Christians as well as Christians. This happens after the 1000 year reign.

So yes, there is a rapture but not as a lot of Christians think. It is the final trumpet call in Revelation.

I hope this makes sense. If you do think that this is not correct, please let me know how as I would like to learn. Cheers and God Bless.

No, that is not correct. The reason being....

The rapture is in 1Thessalonians5:9-11. And is sometime before the peace and safety, feeling of being at ease, is shattered.

....in Revelation 11, the 7th trumpet comes after the beast kills the two witnesses. So, since it is the beast who kills them, the peace and safety will have already been shattered.

What causes the peace and safety feeling in 1Thessalonians5 ? And what shatters it?

The peace and safety will be because the world will be thinking it has entered the messianic age - the Antichrist being the perceived messiah.

But it will be shattered when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claiming to have achieved God-hood. Revealing himself as the man of sin.

So the rapture will take place before that event.